Committee stage in the Lords
Lords Committee debated mandatory reporting of child sexual abuse, removing the reasonable-chastisement defence, family support duties, and strengthening kinship-care approval for the Children's Wellbeing and Schools Bill.
B(Amendment 66 is a probing amendment whose core aim is to further protect children. Adults in positions of authority over children in regulated activities — education, healthcare, sport and more — must have a legal requirement to report any suspicion or knowledge of child sexual abuse. From Rotherham to Rochdale, too many children have been abused and too few perpetrators brought to justice; we must not keep making the same mistakes.My Lords, Amendment 66 is in my name and those of the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, and the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan. This is a probing amendment, the core aim of which is to further protect children. In January this year, this House debated my Private Member’s Bill on mandatory reporting of child sex abuse. It ties in very well with Amendment 107B, which is also in this group, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Watson of Invergowrie. We are all very keen, I think, to see the IICSA recommendations implemented in full. I will not prejudge what the Minister will say, but I expect to be told that there is another vehicle for this amendment; none the less, I think this is worthy of debate. From Rotherham to Rochdale, there have been far too many children who have been abused and too few perpetrators brought to justice. We must continue to learn from our past mistakes. This amendment is a step towards ensuring that positive changes are being made. This amendment seeks to ensure that adults in positions of authority over children in regulated activities would have a legal requirement to report any suspicion of or knowledge of child sexual abuse. Regulated activities include those in education, healthcare, sports and others, which are fully listed in the proposed new schedule. I recognise that this is the Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Bill, but I am keen that protection goes much wider than just schools. I am very keen to hear what the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, might say on the duty of care.
We need a clear, comprehensive system for mandatory reporting of child abuse — one that makes it a criminal offence for those in a position of trust in a regulated activity to fail to report knowledge or reasonable suspicion of abuse. One victim told a nurse what Jimmy Savile had done, only to be told she was making a mountain of it. Children must be able to trust that if they confide in an adult, something will actually happen. The only way to build that confidence is to make failure to report an offence.My Lords, I strongly support this amendment and thank the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, for tabling it. I would like to quote from a speech I made on 26 June 2014, soon after the terrible crimes of Jimmy Savile had been analysed in the Lampard report. Our campaign for the mandatory reporting of child abuse went back at least a decade before that, but the Savile case showed clearly what happens when people who know do not tell. I realise, as the noble Baroness does, that the Minister might tell us this is the wrong Bill to explore this issue, but I have always taken every opportunity to raise it, and that is why I am doing so again today. On that occasion, I said: “I have always felt that a child is his or her own best protector. We can do what we can to protect a child, but we cannot sit on her shoulder all the time. This is why it is so important that children are taught in every school, through a balanced PSHE course, how to protect their own personal integrity … They also need to be taught what a healthy, non-abusive relationship looks and feels like, and who to turn to in case of fear or of actual abuse”. I still believe that this is every child’s right. I went on to say: “We must then minimise the opportunity for perpetrators to reach vulnerable children”, and to talk about the shortcomings of DBS checks, which “are not enough, as they only identify those who have offended before, and are no use against first-time offenders or those who are clever enough to avoid detection”.—[Official Report, 26/6/14; cols. 1418-19.] This is still the case. In that situation, the knowledge or suspicion of abuse by adults around the child is a vital ingredient of protection. We need to ensure that those who know or suspect what is going on report what they know to an appropriate and responsible person. I mentioned that lawyers who acted for dozens of Jimmy Savile’s victims had told me that the most shocking revelation of all was the number of victims who had reported what…
This amendment is both necessary and important. In sport the coach’s influence over an ambitious child is disproportionate, and predatory coaches have moved from school to school and club to club undetected — we saw it in gymnastics, football and athletics. There is no law that compels everyone to report child sexual abuse, and the current mandatory safeguarding requirements did not deter many of the cases that have come to light. Let the lessons of the past protect the children of tomorrow.My Lords, this amendment is both necessary and important. It is a credit to the noble Baronesses, Lady Grey-Thompson and Lady Walmsley, who eloquently introduced it, and for years fought for the mandatory reporting of child sexual abuse to be firmly placed on the statute book. Child abuse, whether in the form of physical, emotional or sexual mistreatment, whether through lack of care, or whether leading to injury or harm, is offensive and detestable. I welcome recognition by the movers of this amendment that the amendment should capture the importance of child sexual abuse in schools and sport clubs, as covered in proposed new Schedule 1A. Within sport, each case of sexual abuse among children is one case too many. In sport, it is compounded because it takes place within a relationship of trust or responsibility; it is an abuse of the power and it is a breach of that trust. The influence that a sports coach or physical education teacher has over children is disproportionately compounded by the physical nature of proximity in sport and the near total control which can be exercised over an ambitious child seeking success in the world of sport. We have seen how prevalent this is in the worlds of gymnastics, football and athletics, to name just three sports which have witnessed the ugliness of child sexual abuse. Taking each in turn, for decades this was a problem that was festering at the heart of gymnastics. For far too long, some coaches and teachers have been able to act with total impunity, forcing young children to experience extreme training programmes while bullying and humiliating dissenting voices into silence. Some coaches have abused their power and authority to commit terrible crimes against the children they should have been caring for, leaving lives destroyed in their wake. In the wake of the #MeToo movement, numerous prominent gymnasts spoke out about the bullying, discrimination and abuse that they experienced in the sport at schools and in clubs. As a…
The Crime and Policing Bill proposals are based on age, but this amendment is more subtle — it responds to the emotional entrapment of grooming, which can occur at any age. Alongside mandatory reporting, we need public health awareness of grooming, training for everyone who works with children, and clear pathways for sensitive reporting. Primary care professionals, including district and community nurses who go into people’s homes, should also be covered.My Lords, this is an extremely important amendment. I have a slight concern that the Minister in replying may say that the Crime and Policing Bill is the place for such an amendment, but the problem with the proposals in that Bill is that they are based on age, whereas this amendment is much more subtle in responding to the emotional entrapment that goes on in grooming, the activity that goes on in grooming, and the difficulty of sexual abuse being perpetrated at all ages. There are five areas that I think would have to go along with this—a public health awareness over the dangers of the early stages of emotional entrapment, leading to grooming that leads on to sexual abuse and the pressures that children are under. Therefore, there must be an awareness overall across society that none of this is acceptable, with training and support of all those who have any responsibility for children, and, when there is suspicion, clear pathways to people who can really deal with this sensitively. One of the situations that comes to mind is the child who goes in to see their GP, perhaps a teenager seeking contraceptive advice. They may actually be in a sexual relationship where they have been coerced, pressured and emotionally groomed, and entrapped with the person who is abusing them, even if that is somebody who is also very young. There may be an imbalance in that relationship, particularly if it is a child who is desperate for love, affection and closeness altogether in their life. When legislation is introduced, which it must be, it will also need good scientific evaluation—not just a tick-box review but a proper study to see how it is working. I was glad to hear the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, say that this was a probing amendment, simply because there is a change I would like to see to it. The amendment refers to healthcare, including in GP surgeries, and I would like that to be extended to primary care services, given that a lot of primary care services occur out…
A failure to report known or reasonably suspected abuse puts the child at future risk and makes the non-reporter complicit in whatever follows. It also prevents proper investigation and deprives the victim of treatment and support. A failure to report is a failure to protect. Any new duty must be well publicised and backed by clear guidance on how to handle disclosure without putting the child through repeated inappropriate questioning.My Lords, I too support Amendment 66 and the proposed introduction of a mandatory reporting requirement for sexual abuse, in accordance not just with the speeches we have heard but with the carefully reasoned recommendation of the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse. In simple terms, failure to report known or reasonably suspected abuse puts the child concerned at future risk, and it can make a person failing to report complicit in what has happened and in what may later happen to the victim of that abuse and, indeed, to others. Moreover, a failure to report prevents proper and prompt investigation of alleged abuse and can deprive the victim of appropriate treatment and support. A failure to report is a failure to protect. All that is obvious, but it is a complex area. There are only a few cases when it can be truly known that abuse has occurred, because it is largely an unwitnessed crime. Accordingly, under the terms of this amendment, the person expected to report must have reasonable grounds for suspicion. If the child is young, that suspicion could well depend on the adult’s understanding of what the child has said or tried to say, or on an interpretation of the child’s behaviour. That may not be easy, particularly if the person concerned does not know the child well or the structure or dynamics of the child’s family. These difficulties should not be made worse for victims of child sexual abuse by failures to report and by deflection of evidence of abuse for the sort of reasons and excuses so clearly described by the report of the independent inquiry—in particular, a misguided desire to protect the alleged perpetrators or institutions. In the sort of cases dealt with in the family court, schools can often be the first to realise that there may have been some type of abuse, and some school staff can, understandably, be nervous of the reaction of angry family members if allegations are made. I recall a case in which the teacher admitted not acting when he…
It is extraordinary that we do not already have mandatory reporting — it is so obvious and so important. The majority of sexual abuse happens within the family, and siblings, aunts, uncles and grandparents who know what is going on but do not know what to do need to be told they have a legal obligation to act. This must come into this Bill or the Crime and Policing Bill — preferably both. And do not forget the police: any sexual abuse of any child is a crime.My Lords, I strongly support this amendment and agree with everything that has been said so far, particularly the very important and valuable contribution by the noble Lord, Lord Meston. He, like I, tried many child abuse cases. It is a sad part of the work that family judges do that there are so many sexual abuse cases of children, from babies to the age of 17, and they are all absolutely terrible. It is important to remember that there are two sorts of sexual abuse—that within the family and that without. As the noble Lord, Lord Meston, said, there has been less of a mirror on abuse within families as on strangers abusing children. It is extraordinary in some ways that we do not already have mandatory reporting, since it is so obvious and so important. There are so many people out there, certainly members of families, who know what is going on but do not know what to do. I am talking about siblings, aunts, uncles, grandparents, because this is a very serious part. I do not know whether noble Lords realise that the majority of sexual abuse is within the family, although there is far too much by outsiders. If it is within the family, it becomes increasingly important that those around the child, who do know but do not know what to do, are told that they have an obligation to do something effective. I hope that the Minister recognises that this is long overdue. It must come into this Bill or into the Crime and Policing Bill—preferably both. One group of people who have not so far been referred to are the police. If it is an obvious case of sexual abuse, the local authority employee must go immediately to the police. Let us not forget that any sexual abuse of any child, of any person, is a crime.
Whatever vehicle we choose and however we draft it, the House must make absolutely clear that there is agreement on the principle of mandatory reporting — because that has not always been the case, and establishing that principle is the first massive step. In 2012, I was told roundly that sport clubs and societies should be exempt because they were exemplars. The last twelve years have shown how wrong that would have been.My Lords, as someone who has been involved with child abuse issues and child protection down the years, I thought it necessary to add my voice to support the amendment. It may be that we want to talk about the vehicle, it may be that we want to talk about the drafting, but it is really important that the House makes absolutely clear that there is agreement on the principle around mandatory reporting, because that has not always been the case, and that is the first massive step to dealing with this issue. I otherwise wanted to say only how pleased I was to hear the contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan. In 2012, when I spoke in this Chamber against the watering down of vetting and barring, I was told roundly that we should have an exemption for all sports clubs and societies because they were exemplars. The last 12 years have shown us how wrong that would have been; they have also shown us how important the amendment is.
Amendment 107B would give children in care the same legal rights to challenge their corporate parent as children living with their families have to challenge their birth parents. IICSA recommended a route by which children in care can apply to the family courts to mandate or limit a local authority’s exercise of its parental responsibility. Children in care are moved far from home, separated from siblings, forced to uproot ahead of GCSEs, and told to register as homeless at 18 — yet the family court has no power to intervene the way it can for children not in care. The Home Secretary committed to implementing all 20 IICSA recommendations; I hope my noble friend can commit to returning on Report with a government amendment.My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 107B, which is in my name. The purpose of this amendment is to ensure that the same legal rights would apply to a child in care as those which apply to children living with their families. In that sense, it is linked to Amendment 69AB, which I shall move later today. In 2022, the final report of the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse, henceforth referred to as IICSA, highlighted the fact that the family court can limit parents’ exercise of their parental responsibility, but the court is unable to intervene in the same way with corporate parents. The report recommended a new “route by which children in care can apply to the family courts for orders to mandate or limit a local authority’s exercise of its parental responsibility”, which is what this new clause seeks to achieve. There are many recognisable harms in the children’s care system, some of which have been identified by noble Lords already, among them: children being moved from settled homes; children being sent many miles from their home area; siblings being split up; children forced to move areas ahead of critical GCSE or A-level exams; children desperately unhappy at where they are living but being told there is nowhere else for them to go; and children approaching their 18th birthday woefully unprepared for life ahead of them. As incredible as it sounds, it is still common for children in care to be told that they must register as homeless once they reach their 18th birthday. It is not difficult to understand why that often causes unbearable stress and anxiety, affecting all areas of the child’s life. The family court is able to intervene in how parents exercise their parental responsibility, yet it has no equivalent power in respect of corporate parents, when looked-after children are the most vulnerable children in our society. As IICSA’s final report explained: “Courts can make decisions about children who are not in care, but only local authorities can ma…
A woman told me that when she was eight she was being sexually abused by her foster parents’ sons every day — and the only thing that got her through it was seeing my smiling face on television. She is now 48 and still reliving it, still wishing she had been able to tell someone. That is why children must know there is somebody they can speak to. As I always say, childhood lasts a lifetime.My Lords, I will very briefly illustrate the importance of Amendment 66 from the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson. As I was making a speech in Hull in 2017, when Hull was the City of Culture, a woman came in and, when she saw me, she almost fainted. She buckled. I thought, “That’s very strange”. Anyway, I finished my speech and after everybody had asked for a selfie and an autograph, the woman came towards me and said, “Floella, I’m sorry I reacted that way, but when I was eight, I was fostered. My foster parents had two sons, and every day they used to come home and sexually abuse me. The only thing that got me through it, Floella, was seeing your smiling face. I so wanted to scream out and tell you, but I knew someone out there loved me. I’m now a 48 year-old woman, and every time I go through a dark period in my life, I think of you and so wish I could have told you back then”. That is why it is important that children should know that there is somebody they can speak to about the kinds of abuse that 48 year-old woman is now reliving, because, as I always say, childhood lasts a lifetime.
Many of the organisations in the proposed new Schedule 1A are out-of-school settings — often stand-alone unincorporated charities with no wider network and weak governance. The mandatory reporting obligation needs to reach them. Any confessional-type exemption for religious institutions is unworkable today given the sheer variety of independent religious settings — please do not let confusion on that point hold back an amendment that is long overdue.My Lords, I will speak briefly to Amendment 66, having spoken on the noble Baroness’s Private Member’s Bill. I also gave evidence to the independent inquiry. If I remember correctly, I believe that the Government’s position at that time was that this recommendation from IICSA was under consideration, so I am grateful to see that it is being taken forward, as well as the recommendation for a child protection agency, which is the subject matter of a later amendment. I wish to make two brief points. First, it is important to remember, as the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, said, that disciplinary processes already exist in some settings, such as large institutions, but many of the organisations outlined in proposed new Schedule 1A are probably more appropriately called out-of-school settings, which are often not even incorporated charities. Even if they are a charity, the only obligations and duties are those of the trustees and they can be stand-alone charities that are not part of any wider network. It is important to put this mandatory reporting obligation on those involved in an increasing number of charities, which do excellent work but sometimes stand in a very vulnerable governance situation. My second point, which is connected to that, is that there have been previous discussions in your Lordships’ House, I think with the noble Lord, Lord Hanson of Flint, on a suggestion that has been floated over the years of some kind of confessional exemption in the context of religious institutions. I think the days when we could nail down which religious institutions those are—maybe some synagogues, a few nonconformist churches and the Catholic Church—are long gone. I hope we can hit this on the head: how can we have any confessional-type exemption if we have such a wide variety of institutions nowadays? Increasingly within the Christian community, although the Catholic Church is seeing a resurgence, young people are going to independent churches that may not be a member of any…
Most abuse of young children happens in the home by family or friends. We will never entirely prevent child sexual abuse, but we can make it very difficult for abusers — and mandatory reporting is how we do that, because they need to know it will not remain hidden. When I appeared before IICSA, I said mandatory reporting must happen. I support Amendment 66.My Lords, when I was a vicar in Tulse Hill in the early 1980s, five young women came to see me. Four had been abused by their fathers. The youngest was eight at the time it happened. Working with them, listening to them, finding help that would restore who they truly were was a very long journey, but I am glad to say that all of them have now taken on professions that I did not think were possible. One of them has had the courage to report her father, who is now doing a quite a long sentence. I come originally from Uganda. I never imagined that a father could abuse an eight year-old girl. I just thought in terms of culture that that was just outrageous, but I listened, and we had to find a way of helping them. Most abuse of young children happens in the home by family or friends. We need to work hard to make the message quite clear. I am reminded of those wonderful words by the noble Lord, Lord Bichard; noble Lords have heard him speak about the Soham murders. He did an inquiry into the Soham murders. One of his wonderful phrases in that report, which has sustained me in my work dealing with people who have been abused, was that we will never succeed in preventing child sexual abuse, but we can make it very difficult for abusers to do it. For me, mandatory reporting is an important reality. When I appeared before IICSA, I was asked a question, and I said mandatory reporting must happen, because the only way that we are going to make it difficult for those who want to carry out their heinous crimes is if they know that it will not remain hidden. As most of it is in the home—at least in my experience—we have got to find a message that can remind a perpetrator of that, even though they may be behind closed doors in an apparently loving home where people’s lives have been blighted. I support Amendment 66. I hope the Minister will say something that can capture the imagination of this nation. We must not look at just the big organisations, but at what happens in the home…
This is about changing the culture. If you suspect child abuse is happening, you have to do something — not ‘I’m not sure’ or ‘it’s a friend of mine’. Church of England clergy said they didn’t think abuse was important enough to report; if mandatory reporting had been law, those abuses over decades would not have occurred. I do not care which Bill carries this — it must pass into law.I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, for putting this amendment down. We can talk in parliamentary language, but it is when we hear the example that my noble friend Lady Benjamin told us about that we know the appalling effects that child abuse has on children and young people. They often carry that for the rest of their lives, and they carry it in silence. Somebody said, and I think it is absolutely right, that this is about changing the culture, where the responsibility is not to sort of pretend “I’m title-tattling” or “I’m not sure” or “It’s a friend of mine” or “I shouldn’t say this”; if you suspect that child abuse is happening, you have to do something about it. Recently, we have heard about all the problems that the Church of England has faced, and we have heard various clergy say, “Well, I didn’t think it was that important”, or “I did do so and so”. If we had had this in law, those prominent clergy would have had a responsibility in law to speak out and those abuses over many decades of young people, not at school but in various holiday camps, I understand, would not have taken place. We think that, by ticking the box on CRB checks, or now on the data-barring service, it is all sorted in schools. It is not. When we come to the schools part of the Bill and look at unregistered schools—particularly, I have to say, religious unregistered schools—it is worth noting that examples have come to light of children who have been abused in unregistered settings. Again, people will say, “I don’t think this has really happened; I’d better not blow the whistle on this”, but it is the case, and various Members of this House know that. This is a very important amendment. I do not care which Bill it comes in, but we need to make sure that it passes into law.
The system is currently failing victims — I do not disagree. But implementing mandatory reporting effectively is one of the most difficult tasks in legislation. Even when disclosures are made, they are not always acted on. We need to think through very carefully what happens when there are suspicions rather than disclosures, particularly in family settings: children may be taken into care while allegations are investigated, and we must weigh that disruption. The Crime and Policing Bill approach — mandatory reporting where there is a disclosure or observed abuse — may be a reasonable starting point, though I hope we keep a lens on this.My Lords, the noble Baronesses, Lady Grey-Thompson and Lady Walmsley, made a predictably powerful case for the mandatory reporting of child sexual abuse and highlighted its terrible scale, impact and extent. I do not disagree with them when they say that the system is currently failing the victims. My noble friend Lord Moynihan also gave very powerful examples from the world of sport. In my experience, this is one of the most difficult areas in which both to legislate and to implement legislation effectively. We know from a range of terrible cases, including, of course, the rape gang scandals of recent years, that even when a disclosure is made—whether by a child or when a professional makes the disclosure directly to the police or local authority—it is not always listened to. We also know from international research that mandatory reporting has led to enormous increases in recorded incidents. That may be an important contributor to the culture change that, as the noble Lord, Lord Storey, rightly identified, is so badly needed; but there is still, of course, an enormous gap between recorded incidents and the prosecution of the offenders concerned. I have a couple of concerns about the amendment. One is volunteers, who play an important role, and the amendment perhaps affecting their willingness to take on voluntary and unpaid activity. Perhaps most importantly, we should think through the issues where there are suspicions rather than disclosures. As we have heard, the majority of child sexual abuse happens within families. We need to think through how suspicion is handled in practice, and the implications of children being taken into care while allegations are made against a parent or step-parent, or a sibling or step-sibling. I am not saying that, where abuse has happened, that is not important to do, but we need—and the Government need—to think through very carefully the implications and the disruption and fracturing of important relationships in children’s lives.…
The Government is already taking forward a mandatory duty to report child sexual abuse for individuals in England undertaking regulated activity with children, including a criminal offence of obstructing someone from making a report — this is in the Crime and Policing Bill, the most appropriate vehicle for debating the detail. On criminal sanctions for failure to report: millions of people take part in regulated activity with children, including volunteers who are the lifeblood of sport and youth organisations. Criminalising an honest mistake could create a chilling effect on volunteering. Our aim is to create a culture of openness, not the opposite. On Amendment 107B, the Government believes a new court route is not needed and would make it harder, not easier, for children’s voices to be heard — we are instead improving advocacy standards, social worker qualifications and LADO guidance.My Lords, this group of amendments has enabled us to hear a consensus in this House about the enormously difficult, tragic and appalling instances of child sexual abuse over the years, and that it is no longer good enough for us not to take important action to protect children in the most appalling circumstances. That is why this Government are committed to protecting children from harm, including from the horrors of sexual abuse, trafficking and exploitation. Measures included in the Bill and the significant programme of reforms already under way will help to protect children at risk of abuse and stop vulnerable children falling through the cracks in services. I shall speak to the detail of the amendments. As we have heard, Amendment 66, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, seeks to insert into the Children Act 2004 a mandatory duty to report child sexual abuse. I wholly understand why noble Lords have taken the opportunity today to raise this issue. As the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, said, we should take every opportunity to raise it and to emphasise the determination of this House and indeed this Government to take action. We have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, alongside the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, about the specific issues relating to sport. We have also heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, the noble Lords, Lord Meston and Lord Bichard, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, about their experience and the pressure they have rightly put on the Government to make progress. Noble Lords knew that part of my response would be that the Government are already taking forward a new mandatory duty to report child sexual abuse for individuals in England undertaking regulated activity with children, as well as, crucially, a new criminal offence of obstructing an individual from making a report under that duty. This duty is included in the Crime and Policing Bill, which is currently in the other place. That is the…
- The April progress update does not go far enough to meet IICSA recommendation 6, which is specifically about access to courts. There is an inconsistency between that and the Home Secretary’s January commitment to implement all 20 recommendations. Is the update really as far as the Government will go?
I thank my noble friend for the points that she has made. She referenced the update that came out in April, but that does not go far enough to meet recommendation 6 of IICSA, which talks about access to courts. It seems to me that there is an inconsistency between that and what the Home Secretary said in January about implementing all 20 recommendations, if the update is—if I understand my noble friend correctly—as far as the Government are prepared to go in this aspect of it at this stage.
- After extensive consultation with the sector, the Government’s view is that a new legal court route is not only unnecessary but would risk making it less likely that children’s voices are heard and that professionals can act swiftly. Existing safeguarding mechanisms and planned improvements — better advocacy, quicker professional intervention — are a more effective way to deliver the intention behind recommendation 6.
In relation to recommendation 6, in very big consultation with the sector, the objective of the Government is to deliver on the intention of the recommendation while recognising—this is something that professionals have also raised—that, for the reasons I have outlined, a new legal route here not only is not necessary but would risk making children’s ability to have their voice heard and for the professionals around them to support them less likely to happen. It is the Government’s view that this is a more effective way of delivering the intentions behind recommendation 6. Between existing safeguarding mechanisms and planned improvements, this Government set a clear expectation that children are safe, their voices are heard and professionals work together to take immediate action in response to issues or concerns. I thank noble Lords for the range of issues that have been raised on this group of amendments. I hope that I have been able to provide some assurances and that noble Lords will feel content not to press their amendments.
- There is consensus on mandatory reporting, but the wording still needs work and I accept there may be a better vehicle. What the Government is currently proposing does not go far enough, but the Minister is right that we must use every opportunity to discuss child protection. I think of a woman at Stoke Mandeville who quietly told me I did not need to go near Jimmy Savile — one adult with a suspicion, but no mechanism for anyone to raise it. Abusers live on their reputation; we must make it much harder for them. For now, I beg leave to withdraw.
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her response—it was perhaps not unexpected. I also thank all those who spoke in this debate. I am really pleased that there is consensus on mandatory reporting, but perhaps the wording requires a little more work. I understand why His Majesty’s Government think that another vehicle might be more appropriate—perhaps this is a useful rehearsal for that future debate. I do not think what the Government are currently proposing goes far enough, but the Minister is absolutely right that we need to use every opportunity we can to discuss the protection of children. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, for the decades of work that she has done in this area. She has had a couple of attempts at a Private Member’s Bill and I am following her footsteps. The noble Baroness raised the absolutely abhorrent case of Jimmy Savile, who was given complete, unfettered access to vulnerable people based on the fundraising that he did. As a child, I spent lots of time at Stoke Mandeville and at other sports events in places where he turned up. I remember one event when I was probably about 12 years old. He arrived to a great fanfare and lots of people said, “Jimmy’s here, Jimmy’s here; you have to go and see him”. I was not particularly keen to do that. There was one adult who said to me, very quietly, “No, you don’t need to go”. I asked why—“Everyone is saying we have to go and see Jimmy”—and she said, “No, no; you can just stay here. You don’t need to go”. I did not think anything of it or tell anyone. I was chatting with my friends, and I thought she probably thought that chatting with my friends was more important than going to see him. That was one adult who had a suspicion and was uncomfortable about behaviour, but there was nothing I could raise and nobody I could complain to. I was just told, “You don’t need to go near him”. It reminds me of how easy it is for adults in positions of power or trust to groom and to coax and to then lead to abu…
- England still allows adults to hit a child and then claim “reasonable chastisement” — a loophole Scotland closed in 2019 and Wales in 2020. Amendment 67 and the consequential Amendment 505 close it here. There is no legal definition of “reasonable”; the line between lawful punishment and unlawful abuse is open to interpretation. Physical punishment consistently predicts increases in child behaviour problems, mental health issues and escalating physical abuse — there are no positive outcomes. Eight in ten child runaways cite family violence as a cause. If I hit a noble Lord, I would be rightly accused of assault; yet England allows adults to hit a much smaller, much more vulnerable child.
My Lords, the long title of this Bill starts by stating that it is to: “Make provision about the safeguarding and welfare of children”. The Bill’s focus on well-being will be undermined if we allow intergenerational cycles of violence towards children to remain perpetuated. Amendment 67, along with the consequential Amendment 505, seeks to closes a loophole in the safeguarding provision for children; a loophole that was closed in Scotland in 2019 and in Wales in 2020 but not yet in England and in Northern Ireland. Children need the same protection from assault as adults, yet lack protection because the law’s amendment 20 years ago left a loophole. When children are hit, the assaulting adult can claim that it is “reasonable chastisement”. There is no legal definition of what is reasonable; it depends on the circumstance. The line between lawful punishment and unlawful abuse is open to interpretation. Paediatrician Professor Andrew Rowland, child protection officer at the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, pointed out that he is “regularly faced with difficult situations where it is alleged that physical punishment has been used against a child”. Last year’s practice review in Worcestershire into nine year-old Alfie’s death flagged up the difficulty in distinguishing “between what is lawful and proportionate and what is harmful and abusive”. The preceding year, Norfolk’s review into the death of child AK concluded that the current law is confusing. These risks are reiterated in safeguarding practice reviews, particularly as bruises are more difficult to see in skin of colour or when the child is extensively covered by clothing. The 2018 report from AFRUCA on safeguarding children in black and ethnic communities in London and Manchester found that complexity and ambiguity in England leaves many families unclear on the law, particularly those who have recently arrived in the UK. The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, to which the UK has signed up, com…
This is a question of children’s rights. Article 19 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child requires governments to protect children from all forms of physical violence. This amendment would ensure the whole of the UK — not just Scotland and Wales — complies with the UN convention. Children are the only group not legally protected from assault. The ‘waiting for Wales’ argument is becoming a legislative Waiting for Godot — how long must we wait for another Bill that gives us this perfect opportunity? The Children’s Commissioners are calling for urgent action now.My Lords, I am very pleased to add my name to Amendment 67, so ably introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff. For me, this is very much a question of children’s rights. As the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, said, Article 19 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child makes it clear that children must be free from violence and that Governments must do all they can to protect them from violence, using all appropriate legislative, administrative, social and educational measures. This amendment would ensure that the whole of the UK, not just Scotland and Wales, complies with the UN convention. Moreover, if we are taking children’s well-being seriously, we cannot continue to allow them to be subjected to physical assault. They are the only group, as the noble Baroness said, who are not legally protected from it. Ministers say they are open-minded but want to see the review of evidence from Wales and from a range of voices. But, as already noted, we have ample evidence, from numerous countries, both of the negative impact of physical punishment on children’s well-being and the positive impact of its prohibition in terms of it having the desired effect of reducing the use of physical punishment. If she has not seen it, I would refer my noble friend the Minister to a recent article in Children and Youth Services Review which brings together much of that evidence. As has already been noted, the evidence is sufficient for all the Children’s Commissioners, including from Wales, to be calling for reform. Indeed, they call the current law “outdated and morally repugnant” and reject the argument that it would lead to the criminalisation of parents. Polling shows consistent support among the general public for reform and new polling shows a majority of safeguarding professionals in support of change. Over half of social workers and teachers said the current law makes their work of safeguarding children more difficult. I fear that the “waiting for Wales” argument…
This amendment is an egregious interference in family life and risks criminalising good, caring parents. The law as it stands is sensible: Section 58 of the Children Act 2004 permits only very mild physical discipline and the reasonable-chastisement defence is unavailable where an injury is more than transient and trifling. The Welsh Government admitted in 2021 there was no definitive evidence that reasonable physical punishment causes negative outcomes for children. A smacking ban would divert scarce social worker resource away from genuinely at-risk children to investigate innocent parents.My Lords, I rise to oppose this amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, and its consequent Amendment 505. I believe it is an egregious interference in family life by the state and an intrusion. It is an attack on family rights and it will encourage a childish disrespect for authority. It is disproportionate and heavy-handed and it risks criminalising good and caring parents, as well as overloading children’s services departments. The law as it stands is sensible. It outlaws violence, abuse and unreasonable chastisement. Crown Prosecution Service guidelines are clear that, if the actions of a parent cause anything that is more than transient or trifling, it is unlawful. This has been the law since 2004, when Parliament narrowed the scope of the reasonable-chastisement defence. The reasonable-chastisement defence simply permits parents to use very mild physical discipline, like a tap on the hand or a smack on the bottom, without being charged with assault. By definition, the defence allows only reasonable behaviour. Therefore, if the defence is removed, it is only reasonable behaviour that will become unlawful. “Reasonable chastisement” is common and harmless. The Welsh Government admitted in 2021 that there was “no definitive evidence that reasonable physical punishment causes negative outcomes for children”. Research recycled by activist academics campaigning for a ban fails to distinguish between reasonable chastisement and beatings. The recent press statement calling for a ban by the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, which appears to have become an annual event, included the claim that “now is the time for this Victorian-era punishment to go”. This kind of highly loaded language must bring into question whether the college was engaging in scientific debate or merely exaggerated polemic. Victorian-era punishment conjures up images of beatings that were outlawed long ago. Either the college is uninformed about the law or it…
- We are not talking about “smacking” — that word trivialises it. We are talking about a physical assault on a child. On the first day of the trial of Sara Sharif’s killers, the prosecutor told jurors that her father said “I legally punished her and she died” — those words come from Section 58 of the Children Act 2004. Every terrible beating starts with a single hit; every one of those awful cases — Maria Colwell, Victoria Climbié, Baby P, Arthur Labinjo-Hughes, Star Hobson — started that way. Children do not have equal protection against assault because of the phrase “reasonable punishment”. These children are calling from the grave — let us act at last.
My Lords, I am very sorry to hear the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Jackson of Peterborough. I believe he totally misunderstands the point of the amendment so ably introduced by my noble friend Lady Finlay. He used “smacking” quite a lot. I will never use that word myself, because it trivialises what we mean. We are talking about a hit—about a physical assault on a child. The reasonable chastisement defence is only ever likely to be used in a court of law, and it has been. As I think we know, the rationale is that every battery of a child starts with a hit, but not every hit of a child leads to battery. One recent case illustrates the point. On the first day of the trial of the killers of Sara Sharif in 2024, the prosecutor, Bill Emlyn Jones, told jurors that Urfan Sharif called British police, having fled to Pakistan after Sara’s death. He said: “He used what you may think is an odd expression. He said: ‘I legally punished her and she died’”. I wonder where he got that phrase. I can tell your Lordships: it appears in Section 58 of the Children Act 2004, and for the last 20 years, I and others have tried to delete it. The presence of those words in the law sends a message that it can be lawful to beat a little child. Back in 2002, the Adoption and Children Act acknowledged the damage done to children from witnessing violence in the home. So long as the reasonable chastisement defence remains, babies and children who witness violence still have greater legal protection than those who are directly assaulted. Emlyn Jones said that Urfan Sharif also told the police: “I beat her up. It wasn’t my intention to kill her, but I beat her up too much”. An intention to kill is not necessary. An intention to cause serious harm is sufficient for a murder conviction if death ensues. The prosecutor said that a note in Urfan Sharif’s handwriting was found next to his daughter’s body, which read: “I swear to God that my intention was not to kill her. But I lost it”. Sara had more th…
This Bill is about children’s well-being, but it is quietly proceeding without tackling a fundamental threat to that well-being: legalised violence against children. We are grooming our children to believe that violence by the powerful against the weak is acceptable for their own good. Evidence from Wales and Scotland shows no major increase in prosecutions — a change in the law would remove the defence only for those who really aim to harm children.My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 67 and 505 in the name of my noble friend Lady Finlay of Llandaff, to which I have added my name and to which she spoke so eloquently. I am afraid that I am unable to comment on the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Jackson of Peterborough, because my cerebral cortex received so many messages of complaint that it shut down quite early on. I have lived on this planet for 60 years, I have been a parent for 20 years, a cricket coach for 15 years, a teacher for 10 years and a kinship carer for over a year, and I have never hit, slapped or smacked anybody, except one unfortunate time in a tour game against Tredegar Ironsides, and the opposition scrum-half started it. As has been mentioned, this is the children’s well-being Bill, but it is quietly going on its way without mentioning a fundamental problem of well-being: legalised violence against children. That is what we are talking about. Not a quick clip around the ear, not a short, sharp shock that teaches them right or wrong. Not something that was done to us and we are no worse for it. No, we are grooming our children to believe that violence is acceptable by the powerful against the weak for their own good. That is not an acceptable message. I believe that the results from Wales and Scotland are showing no major increase, if any, in prosecutions. I suspect that, for most people, it will not be a surprise that hitting a child is a bad idea, so a change in the law would remove the defence only for those who really aim to harm children. The rule of thumb is an urban myth. It has never been acceptable to hit women. Why do we still allow violence against children?
Since I first spoke on this 21 years ago, many more countries have concluded that children are of equal worth to adults. Physical punishment consistently produces more violence in society and worse mental health. There is no definition of “reasonable punishment”. Surely it is time to agree that physical punishment is the reverse of reasonable and remove it from our statute book.My Lords, I am disappointed to be speaking again. The first time was 21 years ago. This time, I speak in support of Amendment 67, again in support of the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay and Lady Walmsley, now joined by my noble friend Lady Lister and the noble Lord, Lord Hampton. As such telling arguments have just been made, I will simply emphasise again that, since 2004, when I first spoke, very many more countries have come to the conclusion that children are of equal worth to adults—a view, it seems, not shared by the noble Lord, Lord Jackson of Peterborough. It is even clearer that the legacy of physical punishment of children is more violence in society and worse mental health. As the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, said, there is no definition of “reasonable punishment”. Surely it is time to agree that physical punishment is the reverse of reasonable and get it out of our common understanding of discipline.
I called for this change in law many years ago, including when I was Children’s Commissioner for England, and I have not changed my view. Most parents no longer believe that hitting children is the right way to improve behaviour. This is not the nanny state — it is closing an outdated loophole and giving children the same right as adults not to be victims of assault. It is time for England to follow Scotland, Wales and Ireland.My Lords, I, too, support the amendment and thank noble Lords for putting it forward. This is not a new debate: I called for this change in law many years ago, including when I was Children’s Commissioner for England. I have not changed my view. As we have heard, Sweden outlawed smacking in 1979, and I can remember when the last Labour Government faced the same calls those 20 years ago. We did, of course, banish corporal punishment in schools a long time ago. The moves in Scotland, in Wales and in Ireland over very recent years have all been about closing the loophole, because they all recognise that the defence of reasonable chastisement is outdated and wrong. I believe it is time for England to follow suit: making sure that children have equal protection from adults. I think that we have moved on considerably in this country over recent years on the issue and that views have changed. It is no longer a particularly contentious issue, I do not think. Most parents no longer believe that hitting children is the right way to improve behaviour or to discipline children: it is much better to support and help parents to support their children with positive behaviour. We should not see this as either a complex or controversial issue or debate. It is not the nanny state or the Government interfering in how parents discipline their children. This amendment makes a sensible and long-overdue change that does no more than provide children with the same right as adults not to be the victims of assault.
- Almost 70 countries have banned smacking, leaving no ambiguity in the law — it is never okay to “reasonably punish” a child. There is no evidence smacking is effective or prevents bad behaviour; it can lead to mental health issues in later life and teach children to use violence to solve problems. I support both Amendment 67 and Amendment 173 on neglect — Sure Start spending has been cut by £1.4 billion since 2010, with over 1,000 centres closed.
My Lords, I rise to support Amendment 173 and the passionate speech on child neglect by my noble friend Lady Tyler. Neglect can affect a child right through into adulthood, and we need to address this by giving support to the protection of our children. I also support Amendment 67 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, who spoke so powerfully, and in the name of other noble Lords. In doing so, I declare my interest as vice-president of Barnardo’s. As we have heard, Barnardo’s, the NSPCC and the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, together with over 20 other organisations, including UNICEF, have called for a complete ban on smacking. Almost 70 countries have banned smacking, leaving no ambiguity in the law: it is never okay to “reasonably punish” a child. It is time to join those countries and end physical punishment against children. There is no evidence that smacking is effective or that it prevents bad behaviour or that it teaches positive behaviour. It can lead to mental health issues in later life and develop a pattern of behaviour of a child learning to use violence to solve problems, to get what they want or even to become a bully. Smacking can damage parent-child relationships and lead to resentment and fear rather than respect. I have spoken to so many adults who tell me how much they hate their father because of the physical violence that they suffered as a child. It is not only fathers whom they hate but mothers who have inflicted violence on their children. It is much better to talk a problem through with a child, reason with a child through role play and set good behavioural examples. The earlier that this starts, the better it is in the long term for a happy childhood experience. I wholeheartedly support this amendment.
In 2000, Germany inserted into its constitution: “Children have a right to an upbringing free of violence. Corporal punishment, emotional harm and other humiliating measures are not permissible.” Seventy-five countries have now taken similar steps; almost the whole of Europe forbids smacking. Germany, Spain, Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark are not worse places for it. England stands out as an exception.My Lords, I support the amendments ably introduced by my noble friend Lady Finlay. They make laws slightly differently in Germany. When a law is made relating to something that affects children, for example, they sometimes insert something in their constitution. I note that in 2000, when the parental right to spank was rescinded in Germany, a new phrase was introduced into the German constitution: “Children have a right to an upbringing free of violence. Corporal punishment, emotional harm and other humiliating measures are not permissible”. That has happened, and similar steps have been taken in 75 countries to date where smacking is not permitted. Many of those countries are in Europe. Almost the whole of Europe forbids smacking. We stand out as an exception in the map of Europe where it is illustrated. Just as Germany, Spain, Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark are not worse places as a result of the banning of smacking, the same will be the situation in the whole of the United Kingdom when England follows Wales, Scotland and, hopefully, Northern Ireland. Section 58 of the Children Act 2004 is predicated by opposition to smacking, not by encouragement of smacking. As has already been said, it was banned in schools but has been allowed to continue in certain very restricted circumstances in homes. As early as 2007, the Crown Prosecution Service issued a report in which it was opposed to banning smacking altogether but observed that the defence was being used in inappropriate situations and in the wrong kinds of cases. There is absolutely no evidence that the banning of smacking would have any dramatic effect on parents who, like the parents in the countries that I have named, have simply been told, “You can’t smack your children anymore”. I believe that people are ready for that in this country. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, in an extremely powerful speech, gave several examples of cases in which the terrible violence that eventually was used against children…
More than 30 MPs in the other place supported a similar amendment, so this is not just being raised in the Lords. The reasonable chastisement defence originates from an 1860 criminal case, R v Hopley — a teacher found guilty of manslaughter of a 13-year-old after beating him with a stick for more than two hours. A judge said a parent “may… inflict moderate and reasonable corporal punishment”. That is the legal foundation we are trying to change. Also: does the Minister confirm whether the defence still applies in part-time educational settings, religious organisations’ children’s settings, and supported accommodation for looked-after 16 and 17-year-olds?My Lords, the case for Amendment 67 and the associated Amendment 505 has very powerfully been made. I add a couple of additional points that might perhaps inform the House and be useful. I note that more than 30 MPs in the other place supported a similar amendment and that there it was driven by the honourable Labour Member for Lowestoft and my honourable friend the Member for North Herefordshire. It is not that we are suddenly bringing this up in your Lordships’ House—there is strong support in the other place as well for government action here. I moved an amendment along similar lines to end the defence of reasonable chastisement during the Domestic Abuse Bill. I was quite new to your Lordships’ House and learned along the way that many people had been working on this for decades longer than I had been. I heard from the then Conservative Government, “Oh, it’s not the time now; we’ve got to see what happens in Scotland and Wales”. I would very much like to think that we are not going to hear the same thing this evening, although I am not terribly optimistic. Like others, I listened very closely to the noble Lord, Lord Jackson. I say a couple of things in direct response to the noble Lord. He cited Professor Larzelere, who would best be described as a “controversial” academic. I point noble Lords to an article responding to some of the work of Professor Larzelere in the journal Marriage & Family Review in 2017, “Researchers Deserve a Better Critique” by George W. Holden et al. The authors say that Professor Larzelere had profoundly misunderstood the description of positive parenting and was very misinformed about the whole academic field. You could feel a visible sense of shock around the House when the noble Lord, Lord Jackson, suggested that smacking was harmless. That is a disturbing label to put when we know from the Royal College of Paediatrics that children who have experienced physical punishment are 2.6 times more likely to experience mental health issues. W…
- The reasonable-chastisement defence applies only to common assault and battery — CPS guidance since 2007 is clear that any injury more than a temporary reddening of the skin, or more than transient and trifling, means the defence is not available. The cases cited — Sara Sharif and the others — were not “transient and trifling”. I am also concerned about what comes next: coercive control and emotional abuse are arguably more damaging for children’s mental health, so where does the law then go? And parents accused of smacking, not of serious violence, may face a criminal justice process that is itself harmful to the child.
My Lords, I rise slightly nervously to respond to this debate, which follows and covers a number of very important and thorny issues. But one of the reasons I am anxious—I double-checked, hence my looking at my telephone— is I felt that, at points, the Committee was talking about slightly different things. I accept absolutely the very valid point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, that in every terrible serious case review of child death at the hands of their parents the issue has started with a single hit, but she would also accept that, thank goodness, those are very much the exception rather than the rule, and that the overwhelming majority of parents who may or may not smack or use physical discipline towards their child do not end up anywhere near those kinds of tragedies. The reason I pulled out my phone was just to check that I had understood correctly. The reasonable chastisement defence applies only in cases of common assault and battery since the Review of Section 58 of the Children Act 2004 and the implementation of that review in October 2007. With the leave of the Committee, I will read a couple of sentences from the advice produced by the department in October 2007: “Therefore any injury sustained by a child which is serious enough to warrant a charge of assault occasioning actual bodily harm cannot be considered to be as the result of reasonable punishment. Section 58 and the amended Charging Standard mean that for any injury to a child caused by a parent or person acting in loco parentis which amounts to more than a temporary reddening of the skin, and where the injury is more that transient and trifling, the defence of reasonable punishment is not available”. So, I am sorry for whatever having to listen to my noble friend Lord Jackson of Peterborough has done to the brain of the noble Lord, Lord Hampton, but I think my noble friend made a very fair point. Noble Lords and parents around the country may or may not agree, but this advice is abs…
- The law as it stands is extremely confusing and unhelpful. How would a parent know what level of pressure will leave a red mark on a child’s skin and what won’t? The law is also discriminatory — you cannot as easily see when a bruise is arising on darker skin. It needs clarifying.
I hope the noble Baroness, Lady Barran, will excuse me for picking up one point that she has just made. The law, as it stands, is extremely confusing and unhelpful to parents. For example, she talked about reddening of the skin. I do not know about the noble Baroness, but if I was going to hit a child, I would not know what level of pressure was going to raise a red mark on that child’s skin and which would not. How can a parent possibly know? So, the law is confusing and unhelpful. It is certainly discriminatory; as has been mentioned, you cannot as easily tell when a bruise is arising on a skin of colour as on a paler skin. Those are just a couple of examples where the law is confusing and it needs clarifying.
- I am not sure I entirely agree — the law talks about “trifling”, and the cases of abuse cited were clearly not trifling by any measure. On Amendment 173 on neglect: I support it and agree that many practitioners lack confidence in responding to neglect. My question is whether it is wise to separate neglect from abuse in legislation, given that in most cases they coexist.
I am not sure that I entirely agree with the noble Baroness on the spirit of the law. It talks about “trifling”—where the chastisement is of a trivial nature—and, while different parents might interpret that in a different way, the kinds of abuse that were cited in the debate that we have just listened to were not trifling; there was no question that they were trifling. I will turn now to Amendment 173 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler of Enfield, which seeks to introduce a national strategy to address neglect of children. As we heard the noble Baroness explain—from her own professional experience, she brings great expertise on this matter—neglect is too common a feature in too many children’s lives. I commend her for bringing this to the attention of the Committee, and I would support her assertion that many practitioners lack confidence in how to respond to neglect. The approach set out in the amendment is practical in terms of sharing best practice and supporting both professionals and parents to understand and address neglect. My question to the noble Baroness, and potentially to the Minister, is whether it is wise to try to separate neglect from abuse, since we know that in most cases they will coexist, and therefore I imagine one would want practitioners to go in with their eyes open to both.
- The Government does not condone violence or abuse of children. The cases cited — terrible as they are — would not be covered by the reasonable punishment defence; to suggest otherwise is simply wrong. Those cases involved something far more profound and dangerous, which the law already treats as criminal. We are looking closely at the evidence from Wales and Scotland — Wales will publish its review at the end of the year. We do not yet want to take this step without considering all voices, including those who might be disproportionately affected. On neglect: we are investing over £500 million in multi-agency family help and providing parenting support through 75 family hubs.
My Lords, the Government are putting children at the heart of everything we do. This is evident in the far-reaching child protection and safeguarding measures in the Bill. The amendments in this group were tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay and Lady Tyler. They relate to the defence of reasonable punishment and what the Government are doing about neglect. I will speak first to Amendments 67 and 505, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, on removing the defence of reasonable punishment in legislation, which has been the basis of most of the contributions in this group. Let me be completely clear: the Government do not condone violence or abuse of children, and there are laws in place to protect children from this. Violence against children is not only unacceptable but illegal. The Crown Prosecution Service guidance referenced during the course of this debate is very clear that only the mildest form of physical punishment can be used to justify discipline. Child protection agencies and the police treat allegations of abuse very seriously; they will investigate and take appropriate action, including prosecution, where there is evidence of an offence having been committed. Local authorities, police and healthcare professionals have a clear duty to act immediately to protect children if they are concerned that a child is suffering or likely to suffer significant harm. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, identified terrible cases that we must all take note of. Much of Part 1 of the Bill aims to address precisely these types of cases. But it is important to emphasise that cases where children have been abused or murdered by their parents—children, in fact, who experienced abuse far short of the terrible cases she identified—even in cases where their parents claimed to have been legally disciplining them, would not be covered by the reasonable punishment defence. To suggest otherwise is simply wrong. I am not convinced that it really was simply a reasonabl…
- There has been a mischaracterisation at the heart of this debate — a conflation of mild admonition with assault by beating. Would the Minister agree with her ministerial colleague Catherine McKinnell’s statement: “Any suggestion that reasonable punishment could be used as a defence to serious harm to a child, or indeed death… is completely wrong and frankly absurd”?
I warmly welcome the Minister’s remarks, because at the heart of this debate there seems to be a mischaracterisation and misunderstanding of Section 58 of the Children Act 2004 and a conflation of mild admonition with assault by beating, which obviously should be subject to the full force of the law. For the avoidance of doubt, and just to sum up, would she agree with the words of her colleague the Minister of State, Catherine McKinnell: “As the law stands, quite frankly, any suggestion that reasonable punishment could be used as a defence to serious harm to a child, or indeed death, as has been asserted, is completely wrong and frankly absurd”?—[Official Report, Commons, Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Bill Committee, 6/2/25; col. 464.]
- Yes — it would be wholly wrong and not in line with the law. The CPS is clear that the cases described in this debate would never come close to that defence. Noble Lords will be disappointed — with one exception — with the Government’s position, but it is a reasonable recognition of the very strong action already taken and the need to learn from those who have recently changed the law.
I hope I did make that clear earlier, but I am very happy to reiterate. It would be wholly wrong. It would not be in line with the law for the types of cases that we have heard about in this debate to be subject to the defence of reasonable punishment. The Crown Prosecution Service has been clear, as professionals are clear, that that would get nowhere near to this defence. I know that noble Lords will be disappointed, with the exception of the noble Lord, Lord Jackson, with the response of the Government, but I think it is a reasonable recognition of the very strong action taken when children are subject to violence and the need to learn from those who have recently changed the law. That is a sensible and appropriate way to go forward in this case.
- Violence and assault against children happen insidiously — it escalates, often associated with alcohol or drugs at home. Parents do not set out to beat their child; it just gets more and more frequent. I have admitted children in paediatrics and been told “I just smacked them and they fell over” — on investigation, multiple old and new fractures. The defence is used at the end of the road. For a teacher or GP told “that was just reasonable punishment”, it is very difficult to challenge. And you cannot see bruises nearly as easily on highly pigmented skin — so “must not leave a mark” does not hold water in our wonderfully diverse country. I am not convinced by the Government’s response. I beg leave to withdraw, but I am very tempted to return.
My Lords, I am most grateful to all those who have who have spoken in support of this amendment. I am slightly disappointed that it leapt straight into the court end of things. I did not recognise being categorised, as was said, as an activist parent. I am not an activist parent, and those who have spoken are not activist parents. One of the problems—and that is why I am grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Lister of Burtersett, Lady Whitaker and Lady Benjamin, who have been with me on this journey for such a long time—is that violence and assault against children happens insidiously. Children learn that this is the way to get control over other people, and it escalates. As the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, said, parents lose it. When they have lost it, it is often associated with alcohol, drugs or other stresses in the home. They do not deliberately set out to beat up the child; it just escalates, and it becomes more and more common. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, for pointing out the change in the constitution in Germany towards children and to the noble Lord, Lord Hampton, for his extensive experience with children. I think his experience may mirror mine. When I was doing paediatrics and admitting children, I was told, “Oh no, I just smacked them and they fell over”. When we investigated further, we found multiple fractures: old fractures, new fractures, all kinds of injuries that nobody had noticed before because they thought this had just been a gentle smack. I have yet to find a family who declare that they are wilfully not a loving family, but loads of families declare they are loving families and they clearly are not, and they have many problems. The emphasis on positive parenting is certainly a theme from this Government. It has been a theme from the Government in Wales. It is terribly important. The last thing that I will say is that I have seen this at first hand with one family where the father certainly smacked his children remarkably…
Amendment 173 would require the Government to prepare and publish a national neglect strategy. Neglect is the most common initial category of abuse on child protection plans and the main reason adults contacted the NSPCC helpline last year — yet unlike other forms of maltreatment, there is no national strategy for it. £4 in every £5 spent on children’s social care is going into late intervention; 83% of professionals say there are not enough services for children experiencing neglect. A national strategy would standardise evidence-based neglect tools, improve information sharing and make early intervention the cornerstone of our policy response.My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 173 in my name, and I thank my noble friend Lady Walmsley for adding her name to it. I am extremely supportive of Amendments 67 and 505, which were very powerfully introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. My amendment seeks to require the Government to prepare and publish a national neglect strategy to galvanise a sustained focus on neglect. For far too long, neglect has been absent from or underplayed in our conversations about supporting children and families. The role it can play is critical in reducing the number of children in care, which will be central to many of our discussions on this part of the Bill. The scale of neglect is significant and its impact on children far-reaching. Neglect is the most common form of maltreatment reported as the initial category of abuse on child protection plans. It was also the main reason for adults reaching out last year to the NSPCC helpline; indeed, new research from the NSPCC underlining this point will be published this week. Neglect has some of the most profound negative and long-term effects on a child’s behaviour, educational achievement, emotional well-being and physical development. It impacts every area of a child’s life. Unaddressed, it prevents children developing their full potential and puts them at serious risk of harm. That it is the very antithesis of well-being, which is what Part 1 of the Bill is all about. However, unlike other forms of maltreatment, there is no national strategy for neglect, and existing practice guidance rarely refers to neglect-specific approaches and models. The NSPCC has reported that professionals have concerns about the lack of a national focus on neglect and how this has left many children without the right support at a time when family pressures are at an all-time high. Requiring the Government to prepare and publish a national neglect strategy, as my amendment would, would make sure that we provide greater protections and support for chi…
- Amendment 68 would place a duty on local authorities to provide family support services for all children and parents in their area. Spending on crisis intervention is up 67% over a decade, with £4 in every £5 going into late intervention, while early intervention services have fallen 46% and the number of children in residential care has risen 79%. We know investment in early intervention reduces demand for high-cost later services — more families stay together in stable, loving homes.
My Lords, I rise to move Amendment 68 and to speak to Amendment 171 in my name and to Amendment 169, to which I have attached my name. In the interests of time, I am going to constrain myself to those three amendments. Amendment 68 introduces a new clause to require local authorities to provide family support services for all children and parents in their area. This very much follows on from what the Minister was saying on the previous group about the desire to provide support for parents. Unfortunately, that is not what has largely been happening. We have seen a massive increase in spending on crisis intervention services in the past decade. It is up 67%, and £4 in every £5 spent is going into late intervention. At the same time, the number of children in residential care has increased by 79%. Spending overall went up in that decade by 61%, but there was a 46% decline in early intervention services. That is what this amendment seeks to address. We know that investment in early interventions will reduce the demand for high-cost, later interventions. More families can stay together in healthy ways, in stable and loving homes where children can grow up peacefully, and fewer young children will experience neglect, abuse and harm. This amendment is again, I am pleased to say, following the work of my honourable friend the Member for North Herefordshire. She and others made the case in the other place. What I think lots of people are saying about this Bill, with lots of amendments, lots of attempts, is that there is a huge amount in it to deal with improving care for children who need to live with a foster family or in a residential home, and of course that is terribly important. But, to improve significantly the conditions of children in this country, we need to start far earlier, and that is what is lacking in this Bill. I am not particularly attached to the detailed drafting here, but certainly I would like to see some movement from the Government and the intention to…
- Family support services — like family hubs — are the first things closed when funding is tight. Sure Start spending has been cut by £1.4 billion since 2010, with over 1,000 centres closed. A duty on local authorities to provide sufficient family support services must be backed by sufficient funding, otherwise we are letting down a whole generation of children and their families.
My Lords, any parent will tell you that raising children is a difficult job. It is important that all families have access to the support they need to help parents be the best they can. That is why early intervention matters; yet, too often, family support services, such as family hubs or centres, are the first things to be closed when funding is tight. Recent analysis by Pro Bono Economics, on behalf of Barnardo’s and other leading children’s charities, shows that spending on Sure Start centres has been reduced by £1.4 billion since 2010, resulting in the closure of over 1,000 centres. This is why I support Amendment 68, moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, to which I have added my name. It would place a duty on local authorities to provide sufficient family support services, including family hubs, for all children and families. This has been recommended by Barnardo’s and Action for Children, but these charities believe that such a change in the law must be backed by sufficient funding. Otherwise, we will be letting down a whole generation of children and their families, and any hope for their well-being.
Every community needs preventive family support in the same way it needs GP surgeries and schools. 80% of children’s educational attainment is determined by family and community factors, not school. 92% of GPs say patients raise personal or family problems during consultations and only 31% feel able to advise adequately. A universal family support infrastructure was missing from the original welfare state and is still missing today.My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 68, 68A, 68B, 169 and 171 in this group. I added my name to Amendment 68 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, because it has been my long-standing position that every community in this country needs preventive family support for social flourishing, in the same way that they need GP surgeries and schools. When the welfare state was founded in the late 1940s, there was a recognition that health and education would not be able to defeat disadvantage without it. Some 80% of children’s educational attainment is determined by pupil-level factors such as family and community, and only 20% by school-level factors. Health-wise, in 2015, Citizens Advice published a report called A Very General Practice, which found that 92% of GPs said that patients raised personal—often family relationship—problems during consultations. This was the top non-health issue they dealt with, and only 31% of GPs felt able to advise at all adequately in this area. In 1949, one of the architects of the welfare state, Michael Young, called for child welfare centres to fulfil Beveridge’s principle of the preservation of parental responsibility and deal with the emotional cost to children of high post-war levels of family breakdown. These costs persist today. Compared to those who do not experience family breakdown, children who do are at least twice as likely to be homeless as adults, to be in trouble with the police or spend time in prison, and to underachieve at school. Young’s child welfare centres began to emerge as family centres in the 1980s. These helped parents of all-aged children, mainly in disadvantaged areas, to prevent the need for social services, or they worked collaboratively with those services. Many were run by voluntary organisations such as National Children’s Home, now Action for Children, and many had significant involvement from local authority social services departments. Promising beginnings led to the requirement in the Childre…
- Amendment 167 would require local authorities to report annually on early intervention services for children and families. I have seen Pause projects prevent mothers who had already had children taken from them from repeating that cycle — I remember a mother whose eight children had all been taken into care before Pause intervened.
My Lords, Amendment 167 in my name is very much about early intervention, which has been a key theme of this group. I support Amendment 68 tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett. I also want to say how important Amendment 169 in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Barran, and others is. I remember, in a previous life when I was chair of Cafcass, visiting various Pause projects. I was so impressed with the work they were doing and how it was preventing young mothers who had already had one or more children taken away from them and put in care from repeating that. I remember hearing the story of a mother whose eight children had all been taken into care. It was only when they were part of a Pause project that this terrible cycle stopped repeating itself. I am enormously supportive of that amendment. My amendment is fairly important, if not as exciting as some of the others, because it would basically require local authorities to report annually on early intervention services for children and families in their area and report back to the Secretary of State. Frankly, we have already heard the context. We know that early intervention services are crucial for the healthy development of babies, children and young people, in particular giving them and their families access to the help they need before problems escalate and families reach crisis point. We have heard the figures, so I am not going to repeat them. Local authorities have faced severe financial challenges. They have not been able to deliver nearly as many of those early intervention services as I am sure they would like, because their money has, frankly, been taken up with crisis and child protection services that they are under a statutory duty to provide. We have heard about what has happened over the last decade and the reducing numbers of children’s centres, family hubs, family support services, youth services et cetera, so I am not going to repeat that, but I will just say that I felt the impact of th…
Amendment 171 deals with bereavement support — and not enough has been said about that today. My father died when I was 14. My mother became the sole wage earner while coping with her own grief. My little brother had stomach pains for years. There were no bereavement services to turn to. The impact on a family when a parent dies can shape children’s life trajectories, including whether they end up in care.My Lords, I am grateful for the Bill as an opportunity to address a number of what we call adverse childhood experiences. I suspect that, given the lateness of the hour, we are not going to reach some of my amendments on care leavers that are scheduled for later. This group, particularly Amendment 171, deals with children who have experienced bereavement. Not much has been said about that in this short debate, so I will say a few words. I was in that position. My dad died when I was 14, leaving me, my younger brother and my mum. It made my mum the only wage earner in the house at the same time as she was coping with her huge grief at losing her husband at the age of 43. She had two children—boys of 14 and 11, who are not the easiest to cope with. I still do not quite know how we coped. I think I coped by burying it for the next 10 years; my little brother coped by having stomach pains for the next few years. It damaged his education. I sometimes wonder whether having to go through that at that early age led to me feeling that I had a calling to be a pastor; I may have had a silver lining. But there were no bereavement services to turn to and there was nothing to support me. As the eldest son of the family, I felt I was trying to hold the family together when everybody else was falling apart. I would have so appreciated there being somewhere I could have turned to; some signposting to where I could have looked for something outside the family—for people who were not grieving as I, my mum, my brother, my father’s parents and others were all grieving: somewhere I could have turned to get some support. If the Bill and Amendment 171 can, in a small way, help us create better bereavement services for children so that those who are in the position I was in all those years ago are not left with nowhere to turn, that would be a great thing for us to do.
- Early and ongoing intervention saves money for local authorities in the long run — intervention in a troubled family reduces the chance children go into care, which is far more expensive. When one child has gone into care, it is vital to act so the next child does not follow. Judges see truly wretched cases where a mother has lost three or four children because she has never received help.
My Lords, I very much support not only early intervention but intervention at various levels when the family absolutely needs it. As the noble Lord, Lord Meston, said, there is a financial advantage to local authorities—not, of course, short term, but long term, because the more a local authority intervenes in a troubled family, the less the chance, with any luck, that the children will go into care. As has already been said, when one child has gone into care, it is particularly important to make sure that the next child—there nearly always is a next child—will not also have to go into care. As the noble Lord, Lord Meston, has said, it is a very sad situation for judges when you really cannot help the mother and her second, third or fourth child—sometimes more—because she has never had any help each time she has lost a child. So there is a genuine financial advantage to stopping children going into care, which is obviously far more expensive in the long term. I will add a short word following on from the sad story of the right reverend Prelate. My son, aged 50, died of cancer, five years ago, with teenage children. Their mother, my daughter-in-law, was brilliant, but the children’s loss of their father at early teenage was absolutely devastating. I am glad to say that they have succeeded extremely well and have coped, but it is a moment when I have no doubt at all that my daughter-in-law—she lives in Los Angeles, so the wider family were unable to help—would have gained enormously, as indeed would the children, if there had been somebody there in a similar situation in this country. This bereavement amendment is particularly important.
- The Government is already rebalancing children’s social care towards earlier intervention and is investing in family support nationally. On Amendment 68, the existing system — through Families First pathfinders and family hubs — is already delivering targeted help and we are not persuaded a new statutory duty is needed. On Amendment 172, we do not believe there is a gap here that existing provisions do not fill. On Amendment 171, the Government continues to consider how to improve access to bereavement support and will say more in due course.
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for highlighting in this debate very important issues aimed at ensuring that children and families can get the support that they need at the right time. That is an enormously important theme of the Government’s reforms to children’s social care. In doing that, we are already taking forward recommendations from the independent review of children’s social care, mentioned by several people today, particularly the aim to rebalance the children’s social care system towards earlier intervention and supporting more children to stay safely with their families. I shall speak first to Amendment 68, in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, and the noble Lord, Lord Farmer, which raises the important issue of family support services. I appreciate the noble Lords’ intention with this amendment and confirm that the Government are already investing in the provision of family support nationally. I also accept the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, that there is a need to ensure that there is that investment. The noble Baroness outlined the fall in investment since 2010; for example, in the Sure Start programme. It took me back to one of the very last interventions that I made in the other place before I came starkly up against the electorate in 2010. I expressed concern that a different Government might not continue to support the development of family support services and Sure Start in a way in which that Government had. There was heckling and jeering, as tends to be more the case at the other end of the building than here, but I am afraid that what we saw in the intervening years was a reduction in support for precisely the sort of services that noble Lords today are, quite rightly, pushing the Government to ensure that we both develop and fund. That is why, as we have frequently referenced—I do so again—that this Government have provided over £500 million to local authorities to roll out the national Families First Partnership…
- Please do not close the door on Pause. Women who have had multiple removals go straight to care proceedings — they do not fit the Families First bracket at all. Each Pause practitioner works with just three women; it is complementary to, not a replacement for, broader family support. The noble Baroness, Lady Armstrong of Hill Top, previously tabled this exact amendment — that gives me additional confidence in it.
I would be grateful if the Minister would agree to go back and talk to her ministerial colleagues about this again. She is absolutely right that some of the effective targeted help and Section 17 types of help that she was talking about, set out in the Families First pathfinders, can be useful to some families, but these cases where a woman has already had multiple removals do not typically fit into that bracket; they go straight to care proceedings. The case load, if I remember rightly, is that each full-time Pause practitioner works with three women, so it is super-intensive and I think is complementary to this. I would just be grateful if she did not close the door on that as an option, particularly as I know that her noble friend, the noble Baroness, Lady Armstrong of Hill Top, previously put this down as an amendment—I feel strengthened in that knowledge.
- I have been persuaded by this debate. I will go back and talk to my colleagues about more specificity around the particular requirements in these cases and return to the noble Baroness with more detail.
I have been persuaded in the course of this debate about the significance of this issue. I had some experience in previous work that I did in children’s social care about this, so I will certainly undertake to go back and talk to my colleagues about some more specificity around the particular requirements in these cases. Perhaps I can return to the noble Baroness with a bit more detail about that. Amendment 171 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, seeks to establish a duty on local authorities to improve access to bereavement support services for children. Like others, I recognise and respect the noble Baroness for talking about her own experience of bereavement, as we also heard from the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester, identifying the enormous pressure that falls on families and particularly other children at the point at which they are bereaved. It is for this reason that the Government continue to consider how to improve access to existing bereavement support. There is a cross-government bereavement group, chaired by the Department of Health and Social Care and attended by officials from the Department for Education, the Department for Work and Pensions and the Home Office, continuing to look at how we can improve access to support. Following discussion by this group of opportunities to improve signposting of support—and as the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester said, I would have appreciated being signposted to some support outside the family—we have recently added links to bereavement support specifically for children and young people on GOV.UK. Schools increasingly talk to their pupils about mental health and where to access further support, both as part of the curriculum and through their wider pastoral duties. The relationships and sex education statutory guidance specifies that teachers should be aware of common adverse childhood experiences, including bereavement. I hope that, bringing those things…
- At least one in four women who has already had a child removed will return to court — usually having had another baby into the same circumstances. Once proceedings finish, the local authority often pays no further attention until the next pregnancy. Amendment 172 would require local authorities to offer an evidence-based programme — like Pause — to every mother who has had a child removed, to break this cycle.
My Lords, I strongly support Amendment 172. I do so in preference to Amendment 169, although I see that both are directed to the same wretched problem of successive removals of children and babies from mothers. Quite simply, much more needs to be done to support parents, particularly mothers, after a child has been removed into care, to reduce the risk of a further child being removed from the same mother. The sad statistics have already been mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, but the fact is that at least one in four women who has already had a child removed will return to court. Too often they have reacted to the removal of their child with an ill-considered or unconsidered decision to have another baby, with all too often the same consequences. These are truly wretched cases for the courts to deal with, particularly if it is impossible for the court to find any real improvement since the previous removal, and particularly if the mother has become mistrustful and finds it difficult to seek and accept help. As things stand, once the previous proceedings finish, the mother may receive no further attention or support from the local authority until the next pregnancy is made known, by which time it may be too late. The evidence collated and presented by the Nuffield Family Justice Observatory on the frequency and impact of recurrent care proceedings and removals is compelling, if depressing. The Nuffield Observatory points out that services are available in some areas but describes them as “few in number” and “mostly small in scale”. The work done by the specialist charity Pause—already mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett—shows that, with the right work and support, the cycle of recurrent removals can be broken. The human cost of successive removals, in terms of misery and grief, is all too obvious. The financial cost to local authorities of successive care proceedings leading to fostering and adoption is enormous and, I would suggest, avoidable.…
- Amendment 172 is broader and better than Amendment 169 — it would require local authorities to offer an evidence-based programme to mothers who have had a child removed, not just those whose baby was removed at birth. After the deafening silence that surrounds a mother once her child is gone, that void is very often filled by another pregnancy. Pause practitioners each work with just three women — it is super-intensive but the evidence is strong.
My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 169 and 172 in my name and to comment on the other amendments in this group. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, and my noble friend Lord Farmer for their support on Amendment 169, and the noble Lords, Lord Hampton and Lord Meston, for their support on Amendment 172. As has been noted, they seek to do similar things. Amendment 169 is a narrower version, focusing on support for mothers who have had a baby removed into care at birth. Like the noble Lord, Lord Meston, I prefer Amendment 172, which is broader and would create an obligation for local authorities to offer an evidence-based programme, such as the Pause programme, to mothers who have had a child removed from their care and who, as we have heard, very often immediately get pregnant again. From a human point of view, one can absolutely understand why, after all the attention that they may have received from children’s services prior to the child being removed and then the deafening silence that surrounds them once the child is gone. Very often, that void is filled by another pregnancy. I prefer Amendment 172 because it is a real issue and is broader, but the evidence for Amendment 169 is crystal clear. Almost half of newborns subject to care proceedings are born to mothers who had previously had a child—an older sibling to the newborn—removed through those proceedings. The near inevitability of that seems very powerful. I am not sure whether it is on my register of interest, but I did a period of volunteering for Pause before I joined your Lordships’ House, so I have seen the quality of its work first hand. Since 2013, over 2,000 women have completed the Pause programme who, prior to working with Pause, collectively had had more than 6,200 children removed from their care—that is just over three children per woman. This is not a competition for how many children a woman has had removed, but Pause was founded by a social worker, Sophie Humphreys, and a…
- Amendment 69AB would ensure that the same standard of parental care expected of birth parents is what local authorities must provide as corporate parents. Section 31 of the Children Act 1989 asks whether the care given to a child is what a reasonable parent would give — yet local authorities are not held to that same standard. Children in care are moved far from home, separated from siblings, forced to uproot before GCSEs, and told to register as homeless at 18. Corporate parents should be held to the standard of a reasonable parent.
My Lords, I always think there is something rather sad about an amendment that sits on its own and forms a group of its own. It looks almost afraid to speak its name. However, I prefer to think of group 4 today as being small but perfectly formed, and I will speak to Amendment 69AB on that basis. The purpose of this amendment is to ensure that the same kind of parental care expected within families applies to corporate parents and the children’s care system. In that sense, it has echoes of Amendment 107B, which I spoke to earlier. Section 31 of the Children Act 1989 provides that a court may make a care order in respect of a child only if it is satisfied that the child is suffering, or is likely to suffer, significant harm and this is attributable to the care received by the child not being what would be reasonable to expect a parent to give to them. There are all sorts of issues, and we have heard many of them this afternoon and evening, about the failures of birth parents. None the less, this amendment would equalise the position of looked-after children and children who live with their parents with no social care involvement. Corporate parents would be required to provide the kind of care which it would be reasonable to expect a parent within the community to give to their child. Surely it is reasonable to expect that the state’s care of children should be at least to the level expected of parents. It should certainly drop no lower. Under the Children Act 1989, a local authority must safeguard and promote the welfare of every child in its care—that is, those who are the subject of an interim care order or a care order—and every child for whom it provides accommodation for a period of more than 24 hours. Amendment 69AB would add the requirement that the local authority—as the child's corporate parent—must provide care that it would be reasonable to expect a parent to give to their child. This would strengthen and give legal clarity as to the primary duty of local…
The amendment is well-intentioned but has obvious practical holes: there are kinds of intimacy in healthy parent-child relationships that would be wholly inappropriate between local authority staff and children. More broadly, we already have a proliferation of legislative duties — when I became chair of Ofqual I discovered we had 28 duties, with more in the pipeline. Adding another duty does not automatically improve outcomes for children.My Lords, I speak to oppose Amendment 69AB, well-intentioned though it clearly is. I have several levels of concerns about the imposition of yet another duty. I believe that the expectations for looked-after children are generally well understood—whether they are actually carried out in practice is another matter. This particular amendment has some obvious holes. For example, there are kinds of intimacy in normal, healthy parent-child relationships that absolutely would not be appropriate between local authority staff and children. More generally, there has been a proliferation of duties in legislation in recent years. For example, I became chair of Ofqual 14 years ago. After a particular duty was raised in my first board meeting, I asked my legal director for a session to talk me through all the duties that applied. To my astonishment, I discovered that we already had 28 duties, with a handful more in the pipeline; I am sure it is a lot more since then. This imposition of duties as the go-to solution has several problems. First, it creates problems of overload. Normal human beings simply cannot hold so many different duties in their thinking simultaneously. Secondly, they get imposed in isolation. They are usually added without reference to previous duties, with which they often overlap but sometimes push in different directions. How do you reconcile them? They can lead to skimping. If duties that have been imposed need resource but are not funded, you can end up with everything being done less well—not only the thing that the duty is aimed at but all the other functions—which reduces the quality at the receiving end. It takes away the ability of public services to prioritise intelligently. It can divert resource away from the main purpose that the duty is intended to protect and towards the kinds of activities that demonstrate compliance with the activity. Finally, if there is a surplus of duties and an impossibility of giving full effect to them all, a sort of cy…
The Government wholeheartedly agrees with the amendment’s goal — local authorities must care for looked-after children as well as a good parent would. A local authority is already a corporate parent in two senses: it has corporate parenting duties and it stands in the parents’ shoes with parental responsibility. Adding a new duty in these terms would likely have little to no practical effect; existing legislation properly enforced is the right route.My Lords, I will speak to the single amendment in this group, Amendment 69AB, in the name of my noble friend Lord Watson of Invergowrie. I reflect the concern that has been expressed about the care and support that some of the most vulnerable children receive. The noble Baroness, Lady Barran, acknowledged that too many children have been let down over the years, and I believe that this Bill is a real opportunity to set things on a more constructive path. I recognise that the amendment has been tabled to add a legislative requirement to ensure that the nature and level of parental care that families strive to provide for their own children is provided by local authorities for looked-after children. A local authority is a corporate parent in two senses: first, it has corporate parenting duties; and, secondly, it stands in the parents’ shoes, having parental responsibility for the children in its care. As I said, I wholeheartedly agree with the amendment’s goal, and we want to ensure that our looked-after children received the highest possible quality support. However, existing legislative and regulatory frameworks mean that local authorities should already care for looked-after children as good parents would. Sections 22 and 22A of the Children Act 1989 already set out the duties owed by a local authority to any child who is looked after by it. These include duties to provide accommodation for the child, to safeguard and promote their welfare, to promote their educational achievement and to help them access a range of services. I notice that the noble Baroness, Lady Spielman, is giving me a look, but I did check that that is indeed the case.
- The point about little to no effect carries considerable weight from a former leader of one of England’s largest city councils. But local authorities do sometimes move children far from home, separate them from siblings, and fail them significantly. The question is whether those failures represent a void that a new duty would fill — and I think in too many cases they do. I beg leave to withdraw, but intend to reflect further.
My Lords, I thank my noble friend. Her last point—about the proposal in my amendment having little to no effect—carries considerable weight coming from someone with her considerable experience as the leader of one of England’s largest city councils; something which she did with some distinction, to put it at its lightest. Her words carry weight. She also talked about—as did the noble Baroness, Lady Spielman—the addition of further duties. The question is whether those duties are appropriate and whether they fill any void that experience shows must be filled. You can talk in generalities, but there are a number of occasions that have been referred to earlier today about local authorities. I do not doubt for one moment that any local authority sets out to do anything other than its best. But there are situations, such as those I mentioned in the debate on my earlier amendment, where local authorities move children out of their area, separate them from siblings, and, on certain occasions, move them just before they are due to sit GCSEs or A-levels, which can have such disruptive effects, and put them into foster care or adoptive care and then do not provide the resources for that care to be properly effective. There are ways in which councils can say, “We’re doing our best”, but, in actual fact, that might not be enough. I am slightly troubled by the point from the noble Baroness, Lady Spielman, that “We’re just adding extra details and duties on to local authorities”. I know she has had experience at Ofqual and Ofsted, but that sounded more like a comment coming from the business part of her career, because it sounded a bit like corporate jargon—not to add on extra duties for the sake of it. The question is, are those duties looking to prevent what can sometimes go wrong in the council’s care of children? I would argue that they can, otherwise, there would not be the sorts of stories that we get all too regularly about local authorities or those funded by local author…
Amendment 69B would introduce the term “kinship family” into the Bill — recognising that children in kinship care and their carers are a family unit, not merely a carer-and-child arrangement. Amendment 71 would require local authorities to proactively consult kinship families when updating their kinship care local offer. Kinship families are the ones in situ receiving the support — their views on what is and is not working are essential.My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 69B in my name and in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, as well as the other amendments in this group. Amendment 69B seeks to ensure that children in kinship care and their carers can be referred to as a “kinship family”. Using the term “kinship families” would allow for the correct dignity, respect and acknowledgement that they are indeed a family unit. Currently, the use of “kinship carers” and “children in kinship care” does not fully recognise that they are a family unit. This amendment seeks to ensure that the whole family is able to access the necessary support, as set out by the local authority. Amendment 71 seeks to ensure that, when a local authority updates its kinship care offer, it proactively consults kinship families. These kinship families play an integral role in understanding the effectiveness of the local offer, as they are the ones in situ who are receiving the support and as such, their opinion and understanding of such delivery is essential to enhance the overall service as and when required. This amendment would also require the offer to be reviewed annually rather than from time to time. We believe that such a vague timescale opens up the possibility for local authorities, which are dealing with a multitude of tasks at any one time, to allow, through no direct fault of their own, such a review to remain unaddressed for a material amount of time without the subject matter being considered, which would negatively affect the kinship families in that local area. To be clear, and as referenced by the noble Lord, Lord Watson, in the previous group, local authorities are always trying to do their best—that is not in doubt. But this amendment cements best practice to ensure that the kinship care offering can be continually improved in line with feedback. As drafted, the Bill does not make reference to any details surrounding how a local authority must review and update its kinship care local offer,…
Kinship care arrangements are most often triggered by an emergency. The proposed kinship carer has not been seeking the role — there is no lead-in time to prepare them, and they may be sharing the same grief or trauma as the child. Amendments 69B and 71 rightly acknowledge this: kinship families deserve proper recognition and should be proactively consulted.My Lords, I rise in support particularly of Amendments 69B and 71. From my experience—and it is an experience that some others in this Chamber would have—kinship care arrangements are often needed as the result of an emergency situation. It is often sad, leaving the young person involved feeling particularly vulnerable. The fact that the proposed kinship carer or carers already have a relationship with that person for whom the kinship care is being considered could help them at a time when they need it, not least because the carer might be experiencing and sharing exactly the same situation. However, it should be noted that, due to the nature of kinship care, it is unlikely that the proposed kinship carer would have been seeking to take on the role. Therefore, there would not be the same lead-in time that you might have to prepare them as you would with a foster carer. Dependent on the circumstances, there is also the potential for conflict with an original parent as well as an impact on the wider family of the kinship carer. This situation means that appropriate support might be required at speed for the proposed kinship carer and their wider family for the benefit of the young person. That support probably would not be the same as for fostering arrangements, due to the uniqueness of the situation, and that makes these amendments important. On Amendments 104 and 146, I am sure that your Lordships will not be surprised to hear what I am about to say. It is worth noting that kinship allowance and kinship leave, while they make sense, would be an additional cost to the local authority. As my noble friend said earlier, there would need to be consideration by the Government as to how they might be funded, but I support the amendments.
Defining kinship care in legislation for the first time is a significant and long-overdue step. But the sacrifice kinship carers make — financial, personal, professional — is hugely underestimated by the system. The Bill should make kinship care a genuinely supported and viable option, not just a legally defined one.My Lords, I would like to speak to Amendments 69B, 70, 71 and 72 in this group. It is terrific that kinship care will be defined in legislation for the first time. It is a significant step, and one that we should admit is long overdue. I could never understand why kinship care was always so overlooked when it is very often the best solution to a child’s care. When I say, “best solution”, I mean that very much in the sense of the interests of the child, for one other thing that is overlooked—and underestimated—is the huge sacrifice that family members and friends make when they take on such a responsibility. While many do so willingly, the system does not exactly make it easy for them. That is why Amendment 69B, in the names of my noble friends Lord Effingham and Lady Stedman-Scott, is a sensible one in that it acknowledges the role of the whole family. I also hope that the Government will consider Amendment 70 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hampton. Another significant step in this Bill is the duty for local authorities to publish a kinship local offer. However, there is an error of omission in that there is no reference anywhere to the different forms of kinship care. We know that different frameworks have different levels of financial, health and therapeutic support, depending on whether you are kinship fostering or have taken on responsibility via a special guardianship order, and whether the child you are taking on has or has not been in care previously. The only problem is that, very often, the potential kinship carers—for the reasons explained by my noble friend—do not have a clue about any of this. Why would they? I will give some examples of what this means in practice, and this is courtesy of the very good charity, Kinship. Fiona’s grandson was taken into foster care at birth, and she was told that, unless she applied for a special guardianship order to look after him, he would stay in the care system. She said she felt pressured and pushed into this,…
We do not realise how lucky we are with kinship care. 153,000 children are in kinship care — nearly as many as the approaching 100,000 officially in the care system. The history of kinship care has been one of taking it for granted and assuming families just step up. We need to move from gratitude to genuine, funded support — and that starts with proper recognition of kinship families as families.My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 69B to 72, and I declare my interests as a governor of Coram and as a trustee of the Foundling Museum, both of which organisations do a huge amount of work with children involved in these amendments. We do not realise how lucky we are with kinship care. The figures speak for themselves. When you compare the fact that we have 153,000 children being kept in kinship care with the numbers officially in the care system, which is approaching dangerously near 100,000, and the relatively small number of children who are fortunate enough to be adopted, we are incredibly lucky to have kinship care. A lot of the history of kinship care as it has evolved and grown has been really about taking it for granted and assuming that is what families or extended families do—and, to a large extent, being inordinately grateful that they are there to take these children on and feeling that one probably needs to devote slightly less time and attention to helping those kinship carers do the best they possibly can by comparison with, let us say, children who are conventionally going through the care system. That is clearly a major imbalance. A particular sentence jumped out at me from the briefing that the organisation Kinship provided in preparation for this stage: “Given the long and troubling history of poor compliance with kinship statutory guidance, it is imperative that government does not simply take the approach that these matters can be attended to in guidance alone”— tempting as that is. With 153,000 currently in kinship care, we have in theory an enormous amount of data to identify where it is being done well and where it is being done less well. So I did a bit of interrogation of the artificial intelligence tool that we are provided with here, courtesy of Microsoft, and an example that jumps out several times when I interrogated it, as a local authority or city council that has best practice in this area, is the city of Portsmouth. I have no id…
- Kinship carers are a priceless asset. I met a young man called Tristan who had been in nine different care settings across the country before finally being fostered in Liverpool and adopted — he is now at Liverpool John Moores University studying law. That happy outcome came after enormous trauma. Better support for kinship carers would keep more children from going through what Tristan went through.
My Lords, I will start using the mantra of the Minister: on a number of occasions she has said that it is about getting children and families the right support. I very much agree with that. I will start by talking generally about the care system. I met a young man whose name is Tristan, and when he was a child he was put into care. When I was chatting to him I was genuinely shocked when he told me he had been in nine different care settings throughout the country. Imagine this child going from one care setting to another. I do not know the reasons why, but that happened. He was lucky enough to end the care placements by being fostered by parents in Liverpool, who eventually adopted him as their son. That was the happy outcome after all the trauma that went on before. He is now at Liverpool John Moores University, studying law.
- The recognition of kinship care in this Bill is genuinely welcome. From a local authority perspective, kinship carers often step up at the moment of highest risk for the child. Statutory guidance will set out expectations clearly, and we are committed to removing unnecessary barriers — but we must not be so prescriptive that we confound and consume the resource we want to protect.
I start by saying how touched I am, and I really want to welcome the comments that have been made about kinship care in the Chamber this evening. It is such an important area, and I think we all have to put our hand on our heart and say that it is a set of relationships that has not been given its due recognition. The noble Lord, Lord Russell, talked about areas of good practice. I think we could all add areas where we know that places are getting it right. The noble Baronesses, Lady Sanderson and Lady O’Neill, talked about the general background and trying to imagine the situation when you know that a family member is getting into difficulties. As they quite rightly say, this becomes a moment of crisis when the risk to the children we are talking about is at its absolute highest. The recognition of the importance of focusing on the outcomes for children and young people is to be welcomed and needs to be at the forefront of everything that we do. From a local authority perspective, we know that too many children are going into care. As we have heard tonight, this can have a detrimental effect on their prospects and outcomes over a long period. It also has an enormous impact on the budgets of councils, in particular where money could be invested into setting up more support networks in this area. We are talking about supporting children to stay within their family and friend network, where that is safe and right for them. This is a priority for this Government. There is a general recognition that the support that kinship families have received to date has not been sufficient. We are working hard to address this. It is quite extraordinary that, until now, there has been no legal definition of kinship care. Changing that is something that we can all come together to welcome. As we have heard, access to information for the families involved can be a postcode lottery. Clause 5 is a significant step towards ensuring greater parity in information on the support that is ava…
- My heart sank when I heard “statutory guidance”. I have worked closely with the Children’s Commissioner, the Victims’ Commissioner and the Domestic Abuse Commissioner — ask any of them about overreliance on statutory guidance and you will get very mixed messages. Statutory guidance is effective only if compliance is monitored and non-compliance is called out.
I welcome an awful lot of what the Minister said and what His Majesty’s Government are trying to do. My heart sank slightly when I heard the piece about relying on statutory guidance, which was obviously written for her beforehand. I have worked very closely on a variety of Bills over the past four or five years with the Children’s Commissioner, the Victims’ Commissioner and the Domestic Abuse Commissioner. If the Minister were to sit down with each or all of them and ask them about the experience they had of overreliance on statutory guidance, she would get some very mixed messages. Statutory guidance is effective only if the degree to which it is complied with is monitored; it is of no use whatever if the organisations that are meant to carry it out know that nobody is looking over their shoulder or calling them to book if they do not comply. This again comes back to the variation in practice across the country. So I ask the Minister, her colleagues and the department to talk to some of those commissioners, to understand the historical and the live experience they have in dealing with some of the statutory guidance we have put into some of the legislation that has come through the House in the past three or four years, to see how effective it is and what we can learn from it.
- I was not just reading a script — I have been in the place of delivering this agenda as leader of a major city council. Statutory guidance must be adhered to, monitored and taken seriously, and where it has not been adhered to, it must be called out. The most important thing we can do is ensure organisations know their rights and responsibilities and live up to them.
I thank the noble Lord for his contribution and reassure him that I was not just reading out a script. I have put a lot of thought into this. I have been in the place of delivering on this agenda, so I do have the experience. We have to be careful that we are not too prescriptive at every level, because that can absolutely confound and take up more resource. But I do acknowledge that statutory guidance has to be adhered to, monitored and dealt with with the same seriousness across the piece and, where it has not been adhered to, it has to be called out. The most important thing that all of us can do is make sure that there is an awareness of the rights and responsibilities of the different organisations involved and that they live up to them and, as we have said all the way through, put the needs of some of the most vulnerable children in our communities at the heart of everything we do.
- As a kinship carer of twin 13-year-olds, I know first-hand that the Bill falls short of delivering the education and mental health support children in kinship care urgently need. A third of kinship carers rated the information provided by local authorities “very poor” in Kinship’s 2024 survey. Amendment 72 would address that.
My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 72 in my name and remind the House that I am a kinship carer of twin 13 year-olds. I also thank Kinship for its help in this. The Bill recognises the vital role that kinship carers play and strengthens welcome reforms which improve support for kinship carers. However, some of the Government’s stated policy objectives associated with the Bill’s provisions are unlikely to be realised without additional reform and the Bill ultimately falls short of delivering the vital education on the mental health support that children in kinship care urgently need. Making the kinship local offer a legal requirement through new legislation is welcome. In Kinship’s 2024 annual survey, a third of kinship carers rated the information provided about kinship care by their local authorities “very poor”, and only 7% of kinship carers said in 2023 that they had seen their local authority’s existing family and friends care policy—something local authorities have been required to deliver since 2011. A new legal duty and more comprehensive guidance around the content and delivery of this information should help kinship carers to better understand and access available support. However, as outlined by Kinship’s associate director of policy and public affairs when providing oral evidence to the Education Committee last month, the local offer’s impact will be to magnify the lack of support available to kinship families, particularly those with informal arrangements or where a legal order was made in private proceedings.
- Amendments 73, 74, 75, 76 and 76A would update the approval process for kinship carers, which currently mirrors the process for stranger foster carers — a process that does not fit the very different nature of kinship relationships. A kinship carer already has a long-standing relationship with the child; they should not face the same assessment as someone applying to foster a stranger’s child. These amendments allow differentiated, proportionate assessment that protects children while removing unnecessary barriers for families.
My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 73, 74, 75, 76 and 76A in my name, and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hampton, for adding his name to these amendments. I apologise to those waiting for the regret Motion, but my speaking notes are quite lengthy on this group, because it is quite complicated and important. These amendments all seek to update the approach to the approval of kinship carers, which currently broadly mirrors that for stranger foster carers—I apologise if that is the wrong term. These amendments have been prompted by conversations I have had with leaders in local authorities and the family justice system. I put on record my thanks to the charity Kinship for its advice and explanation of the current position of kinship carers. My amendments aim to recognise that placing a child with someone other than their birth parents requires balancing a number of risks and safeguards. Kinship carers have the obvious strength of a long-standing, usually lifelong, relationship with a child in the way that a stranger foster carer, however compassionate, does not. However, they may not meet the full standards required by a foster panel in order to be formally approved as the permanent home for a child. Currently, there is no ability to balance these considerations. In a world where the Government understandably want to see an increase in the use of kinship care, including through family group conferencing, this could be unhelpful at best and potentially damaging for the child at worst.
- These are extraordinarily sensible amendments that would speed up the process and make it easier for kinship carers to step up. I heartily approve.
My Lords, I will speak very briefly to Amendments 73, 74, 75, 76 and 76A in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Barran, to which I have added my name. I am in that dangerous position where I am between your Lordships and supper, so I am going to keep it very short, given that I spoke at length about kinship care in the last group. These are extraordinarily sensible amendments that would speed things up and make it easier for kinship carers to be kinship carers. I heartily approve.
- There is now consensus that preference should be given to placing children with relatives or those with a pre-existing connection to the child. The Law Commission has recently reviewed the law on kinship care and there is no reason why these clauses could not sunset if the Law Commission later produces a more coherent framework.
My Lords, I do not want to join the competition for brevity, but I will do my best. There is now consensus that preference should, if possible, be given to the placement of children with relatives or those who have some pre-existing connection with the child and are able to offer commitment to care. Kinship carers, like foster carers, are a precious resource, and therefore I support these amendments. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Barran, said, we should not lose sight of the fact that the Law Commission has recently undertaken a review of the law concerning kinship care, with a view to improving its efficiency and simplicity. That has become necessary because of the great range and variety of situations in which kinship care can arise and might be required—from the temporary and informal arrangement to the longer-term or permanent that can involve foster care, special guardianship or other forms of order. It has been suggested by some that, rather than have a scattered legislative and regulatory regime, kinship care should now have a separate and distinct regime. That is something that may emerge from the Law Commission. That is not to say that improvements cannot be made to the present piecemeal structures, and that is why I support these amendments. They will make procedures easier for kinship carers or potential kinship carers, without inappropriately cutting corners.
- Kinship care has to be done far more quickly than a foster care placement. The kinship carer is looking after a child they know — they are not applying to foster any child and should not need the same breadth of training and experience assessment as a stranger foster carer.
My Lords, I will be even briefer, because much of what I intended to say has already been said. Obviously, I deal with this pretty much on a daily basis, back at the base in Bexley. As explained earlier, kinship care tends to have to be done much more quickly than a foster care placement. A foster care placement can go through a due process that will take much longer and will be very thorough, but kinship care tends to have to be much quicker. There are things that you might need to look at for a kinship care placement that you would not for foster care. Obviously, the kinship carer is seeking to look after a child they know. They are not looking to foster any child, which would mean that they would have to have a wide range of experience and therefore, no doubt, training to go with it. They may already be in a home that they will take the child or children into, so the accommodation might not meet the needs that a foster care panel might want it to. They may have a job, as has been said, and that will need to be worked around. They will not necessarily have made arrangements to take on a child, especially if it is a grandparent at an older age. All these things need to be considered. Frankly, kinship care and fostering arrangements are very different, which is why I support these amendments. This really needs to be looked at in a different way. I promised brevity, so I will now sit down.
- The Government agrees we must tackle barriers for kinship carers and will support Amendments 73, 75 and 76A in principle — but the detail should be worked through in secondary legislation and guidance rather than on the face of the Bill, to ensure flexibility as the Law Commission’s review concludes.
My Lords, I appreciate noble Lords’ concerns about ensuring that children grow up in safe, stable and loving homes within their family network. I reaffirm that the Government are firmly committed to enabling children to remain safely with their family whenever it is in their best interest, and, alongside that, to removing unnecessary barriers that may prevent this from happening. I recognise the assessment of the noble Baroness, Lady Evans, of the contribution of kinship carers, which adds to our debates earlier in Committee. I turn to amendments relating to the removal of unregistered status and requirements under fostering regulations for kinship carers: Amendments 73, 75 and 76A, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Barran. We agree with the noble Baroness that we must tackle the barriers that currently make it harder for people to become kinship carers. We fully appreciate that that process of becoming a formal kinship carer can feel intrusive or burdensome at times, and we recognise that there is room for improvement in how these assessments are carried out. It is vital that they are conducted in a way that is supportive, respectful and sensitive to the unique circumstances of kinship families. At the same time, these assessments play a crucial role in ensuring that children are placed in safe, stable and nurturing environments. They also help local authorities identify the right support for carers so that they are not left to manage alone. Getting this balance right is essential. Whenever a child can no longer live safely at home with their parents or anyone else with parental responsibility, the local authority has an obligation to complete a robust safeguarding assessment. The approach to doing this is set out in the Care Planning, Placement and Case Review (England) Regulations 2010 and the Fostering Services (England) Regulations 2011. Removing these assessments, as suggested by Amendments 73 and 75, risks undermining the assurance of the safety and well-bei…
- None of these amendments would cost the Government a penny. They simply seek to improve a system that practitioners say is not working as it could. I did not hear responses to Amendments 74 and 76 — perhaps the noble Baroness and I can both check Hansard. For now, I beg leave to withdraw.
I thank all noble Lords who contributed to this debate. I must say that I was a bit more optimistic about the noble Baroness’s response because none of these amendments would cost the Government any money. They simply seek to improve the system that, as we have heard from practitioners and others—including my noble friend Lady O’Neill, who deals with this on a daily basis—is not working as well as it could. The noble Lord, Lord Meston, rightly raised in his remarks the position of the Law Commission review. There is no reason that one could not sunset these clauses if, in however many years’ time, the Law Commission comes forward with a more coherent plan. Forgive me if I missed it, but I was not sure that I heard responses to my Amendments 74 and 76. Maybe the noble Baroness and I can both look at Hansard and double-check. On Amendments 73, 75 and 76A, the noble Baroness said that these need to feel like supportive assessments for foster carers. The point really is about finding the balance between the familiarity and security of someone you have known all your life versus any shortcomings that they might have personally, where they live, or any of the points I raised earlier. In reality, we know that directors of children’s services are having to make choices today to leave children with a kinship carer where they judge that the fostering panel would not exercise the discretion that the noble Baroness outlined, thereby putting themselves in a pretty impossible position vis-à-vis Ofsted. No director of children’s services wants to be in that position. In relation to Amendment 75, we need to take great care over approval, but the point of Amendment 75 is that the family group decision-making process has already agreed that the kinship family or the member of the child’s extended family is suitable to care for them. The question is why we have to do that twice. I will go away and reread what the noble Baroness said about temporary placements—I think that that may hav…