Report stage in the Lords
- Speaker
Lord BachLabour- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 1:
- Time
- 15:08
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord HenleyConservative- Quote
- My Lords, I can be fairly brief. I congratulate the noble Lord on moving the amendment on behalf of his noble friend Lord Jones, whom we hope to see later—indeed, I am sure that he will be here. I thank the noble Lord for the letter that his noble friend sent on 2 May to all those who have been taking an interest in the Bill, setting out what the amendment would do. We are content with the amendment, for which we thank the Government. On Question, amendment agreed to. Clause 4 [Determination of proceedings without hearing]:
- Time
- 15:08
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord Lester of Herne HillNon-affiliated- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 2:
- Time
- 15:08
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord Campbell of AllowayConservative- Quote
- My Lords, I agree with what the noble Lord has just said, but not, of course, with what led up to it. Everything depends now on the response of the Minister. Up to this stage, he has not accepted the case as put forward by the noble Lord. I am not being critical for the sake of it. I am merely stating a fact. Columns 314 to 316 of Hansard for 13 March 2008—the third day of Committee—show that the Minister does not accept what is proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Lester. In addition, he has had conversations and discussions—about which we do not know now, but about which we shall know eventually, and probably, in the light of what is said in this debate—about what the Minister proposes to do. As I understand it from the bush telegraph, the Minister is considering whether he will introduce amendments which relate to safeguard amendments to Clause 18; that is, the amendments to which the noble Lord, Lord Lester, referred. According to my information, he is considering whether to do that and then, when he has done that, what he will do. This argument is somewhat sterile until we know what that is because we could divide on some things today, such as what happens to sailors not getting the right wages. However, we cannot divide on this today as we have no idea what the Government will put down on Third Reading. The noble Lord was good enough to refer to my Amendments Nos. 31 and 32, which I know the Government are considering taking over in any event. They have not said that they will or that they will not, yet they acknowledge the intendment of the amendments, so if those are to be redrafted it will be up to the Government to do it. However, those are not safeguard amendments to Clause 18 but purely procedural ones, and there is a distinction—although, as we will see in a moment, the two overlap. There is a fundamental issue not just between the noble Lord, Lord Lester, and myself but between the noble Lord and the Government. That is whether Clause 18 is wholly effective in affording conformability of our domestic employment law with the conventions in accordance with the Strasbourg court’s decision on ASLEF. I will not go into technicalities, but it referred to certain provisions of our domestic law as being incompatible. Those provisions have to be got rid of, as there is an obligation on the Government to seek conformity. Clause 18, in the opinion of Government—and in my respectful opinion, which really does not matter as much as theirs—is wholly effective, requisite and sufficient for its purpose of seeking conformity. If that is right, then the Government’s view as expressed in the passage that I quoted from day three in Committee is, again, right; there is in fact no need at all for these safeguard amendments, as they are called. If that is so then the fundamental question raised, on which options should be implemented, flies out of the window. None of us knows what is really going on until we know what the Government will decide to do. The Government may wish to formulate their own concept of a safeguard amendment—I do not know—but their concept of Amendments Nos. 31 and 32 is fundamentally a question of drafting. As everyone knows, I am not a draftsman and I make that inevitable qualification. Amendments Nos. 33 and 36 have to be considered with some care in another context: do they distort, as I suggest they do, the proper balance of the ordained ASLEF procedures in favour of the trade unions? If there is no need for the trade unions to be protected, as was once suggested at some passage—I do not have it in mind but the noble Lord, Lord Lester, will know where he referred to protection of the trade unions—and the Minister assured the Grand Committee that the trade unions were in no need of such protection, that is another matter which has to be taken into account in this context. I shall not discuss the nature of the balance because it is related to Amendment No. 31, which is in the last group of amendments and it would be wrong of me to pre-empt it. Another aspect of these safeguard amendments is the tightening-up of ordained procedures in a way which is wide of the substantial flexibility with which they are to be implemented on the facts and circumstances of each case and on a balance as between the respective convention rights of the trade unions to set their rules and choose their membership, as acknowledged in ASLEF, and the rights of the individual who wishes to join or remain in a trade union. A wide ambit of special, ordained procedures has to be followed. If they are not followed, back you all go to another court in Strasbourg. That is mandatory. Professor Wedderburn, who has much more experience than I, gave a warning about tightening up what are supposed to be flexible procedures—I shall not go into the details today—but that warning appears to have been not heeded in the context of membership of a political party. You only have to look at the amendments passing through Grand Committee to see that, with every effort to amend, we are starting to move away from, or tighten up, what is a flexible procedure, and this will inevitably engender more litigation. This is no time for a long speech. I have been too long already. I have tried to do justice, without adding my version to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Lester. The truth of the matter is that until we know what the Government are going to do, there is no constructive purpose in saying any more. I would like to mention one problem; I am not being critical of my party but I seek clarification. Those on my Front Bench in Grand Committee said that they strongly favoured the safeguard amendment to Clause 18 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Lester. I oppose it. I am not saying who is right or wrong again, but the party to which I adhere and I were not in agreement. If you look at the Marshalled List, with Amendments Nos. 34, 35 and 37, my party has actually supported in principle Amendments Nos. 33 and 36. Whether it meant to do so or not is neither here nor there. There is plenty of time between now and Third Reading for everybody to find out what everybody else really thinks or says. In a sense, it is a point against me that my own party does not agree, but on the other hand, one has to argue one’s case, even if there are a few warts on it.
- Time
- 15:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Baroness Turner of CamdenLabour- Quote
- My Lords, we had a long discussion on a similar amendment in Committee, as noble Lords will remember. At that stage I drew attention to one of my objections to the original amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Lester. I am afraid, however, that I still have problems with the amendment. I see the noble Lord nods; he realises that I do. The problem that I have is with proposed new paragraph (b) which says, “the individual would not suffer exceptional hardship by reason of the expulsion or exclusion or any related conduct by or on behalf of the union in relation to his employment”. As I said in Committee, we do not have closed-shop agreements any more so we no longer have the power to take into consideration whether a decision of that kind will result in exceptional hardship. Generally speaking, unions now do not have the power that they once had to inflict exceptional hardship by means of withdrawal of employment and so on. This is made quite clear in the amendment, which says, “is permitted only if”. So the union would have to take account of this before it came to a decision to expel someone under the terms of the Bill. As I said, if I had to choose between the Bill and the amendment, I would choose the Bill as it stands. It is possible, as has been indicated by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, that the Government will be prepared to come up with a compromise, but my objection arises from imposing on the unions in proposed new paragraph (b)—
- Time
- 15:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Lester of Herne HillNon-affiliated
- Quote
- My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble Baroness. The notion of exceptional hardship comes out of paragraph 52 of the judgment of the court. If there is no exceptional hardship, the union has no restriction under that heading. I accept that, without the closed shop, the situation where there may be exceptional hardship will be much rarer than otherwise. If exceptional hardship is not inflicted, it does not matter; if it is, it violates the spirit of paragraph 52 of the judgment, which is why it is there.
- Time
- 15:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness Turner of CamdenLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, in those circumstances, I hope that we get from the Government a compromise suggestion which might be acceptable to everybody. However, I still feel unhappy about that wording.
- Time
- 15:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Campbell of AllowayConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, this is not a question to be argued here any more. The question is: which argument will the Government accept? We do not know. My noble friend does not know—he probably argues better than me. At least the Government will form their own opinion. The noble Baroness is quite right—
- Time
- 15:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord HenleyConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, perhaps I should intervene at this stage, particularly as my noble friend Lord Campbell has invited me to do so. I make it clear that I do not think that I will be able to argue the case as well as him, but I shall set out our Front Bench’s view on this matter in due course so that my noble friend and the House can hear it. Like my noble friend, I look forward to hearing the Government’s response, so that we, the noble Lord, Lord Lester, and others know just what to do either now or at Third Reading. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Lester, on his drafting and particularly on his putting this matter down quite so early in Bill with his paving amendment. I seem to remember it coming up on days three and four in Committee. To get us to a second amendment on Report shows some skill. As it is the most important amendment with which we have to deal, we are all grateful for it. We are speaking to a rather complicated group of amendments in that it contains those from the noble Lord, Lord Lester, and my noble friend Lord Campbell. It has Amendments Nos. 34, 35 and 37 from me and my noble friend. I imagine that it includes also Amendment No. 34A of my noble friend Lady Perry of Southwark, which is not on the Marshalled List.
- Time
- 15:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord BachLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I think that the noble Lord is wrong. None of the two amendments which the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, will move in due course is in this group.
- Time
- 15:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord HenleyConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, I apologise. I am looking at the old draft groupings list. My noble friend will come back to his amendments later. Is that correct?
- Time
- 15:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Campbell of AllowayConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, it is not quite clear. I have tried to keep off Amendment No. 31, because it is right not to pre-empt it. I have said a bit about it so far as it concerns a safeguard amendment which tightens the drafting, but I have not said all that I wish to say about it.
- Time
- 15:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord HenleyConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, there will no doubt be much more that my noble friend will want to say later on and we look forward to hearing him on Amendments Nos. 31 and 32, whether today or on another day. We are covering the general principle of Amendments Nos. 2, 33 and those also in my name. As we made clear in Committee, we on these Benches are not exactly happy with the ASLEF judgment. We are not happy that trade unions should be able to expel or exclude people solely on the basis of their membership of a legitimate political party. This sound principle was the reason for the protected status of political party membership in the first place. We all know that some so-called legitimate political parties have deeply unpleasant policies. The party whose member’s exclusion led to this judgment is a fine example of when a trade union might dislike a member signing up to it. However, trade unions already have sufficient powers to expel someone if their behaviour is so incompatible with trade union principles. This was the case even in the instance that led to the European Court of Human Rights judgment. However, we accept that the judgment has now been made and that we in the United Kingdom must now amend our laws in order to accommodate it. In order to mitigate the possible abuse of the power we are therefore now seeking to impose the tightest possible limitations and safeguards on when the power can be exercised.
- Time
- 15:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Campbell of AllowayConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, I apologise for intervening, but whatever the objections—my noble friend is speaking for our party—they have to be implemented within the framework of these ordained procedures. I hope that my noble friend will accept that we cannot by our own domestic law go outside the ordained procedures, or back we go to the Strasbourg court.
- Time
- 15:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord HenleyConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, I think I can agree with my noble friend but, as he would agree, at this stage we have to hear what the Government have to say before we can respond. We will see what the noble Lord, Lord Bach, or what the noble Lord, Lord Jones—when he comes back from Crewe or wherever he happens to be—have to say. We have been told that most of the Labour Government have gone to Crewe; the noble Lord, Lord Bach, has obviously been spared. We are waiting to hear from the Minister; no doubt the noble Lord, Lord Lester, will listen, as we will do. I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Morris, is rightly going to speak before the Minister, because we are on Report. After listening to him, and others, we will listen to what the Minister has to say.
- Time
- 15:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord Morris of HandsworthLabour- Quote
- My Lords, I speak to Amendment No. 36 and in support of Amendment No. 33. I also take the opportunity to thank the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, for their unstinting efforts in seeking an accommodation in respect of the principles in the Bill. I will seek not to rehearse the arguments and the history of how we got here, except to say that I do not take lightly, and I fully appreciate, the Government’s difficulties in seeking to strike the right balance between maintaining free democratic trade unions on the one hand and protecting and defending the rights of the individual on the other. Nevertheless, the amendments address some overall deficiencies in the Bill. The proposals in the Bill are far-reaching. The most fundamental sanction that can be taken against a trade unionist—the ultimate sanction—is to deny that individual the right to belong to a trade union. Therefore, such action cannot and should not be taken lightly; it can and should only be taken with due regard for natural justice and, of course, the rights of the individual. Neither Amendment No. 33 nor Amendment No. 36 attacks the fundamental principles and substance of the Bill. As has rightly been said, if we were debating this without the background of what was said in the context of the European Court, we might have started at a different point. The amendments seek to ensure that we have proper procedures and safeguards built on the principles of natural justice. It is ironic that the Bill lays out a course of action that would automatically be in a tribunal if an employee was dismissed and lost his or her employment. Therefore, the amendments seek to argue that we should address the procedures and ensure natural justice, as well as that the rights of the individual must always be protected. The Government argue that, because the closed shop no longer applies, a member who is expelled is therefore not subjected or exposed to any significant detriment. I disagree with that; I take a different view. I have here the schedule of benefits from my union, which runs to about 14 primary benefits, up to incapacity benefit for an accident at work. But the most important benefit that some sections of our membership would enjoy would be legal representation. If a lorry driver is charged under the Road Traffic Act and has to appear in court without proper representation, he or she could end up losing his or her licence—and if you lose your licence as a lorry driver, it follows that you lose your job. For me, that would be a significant detriment. I would go a step further by saying that it could represent substantial hardship. That should be taken into consideration. There are many other examples of benefits, such as two weeks’ convalescence in a convalescent home after a period of illness, but I will not detain the House further on the range of benefits that could by lost by individuals in my union. I will only say that my judgment is that some of these circumstances could be regarded as exceptional. I recognise that, in terms of safeguards for the individual, the Bill is predicated on remedies. I am not against remedies in proven situations but, in circumstances such as these, the Government owe protection and not remedies to the citizen. Remedies are last resorts. It is said that it is open to an aggrieved individual to go to a certification officer or an industrial tribunal, or to go to the civil courts, but that is not the foundation on which we as a nation have historically built our industrial relations or the road to accessing justice. I therefore hope the Minister will clearly indicate a pathway for protection rather than a pathway to remedy. In every industrial relations case where a worker’s job or livelihood is at risk he is entitled to a very basic and fair procedure. That is why we in your Lordships’ House believe it important to state clearly that a person who is to be excluded or, more importantly, expelled should be told the case to be answered. He should also be told the time and place of the hearing. Representation is an important facet of our form of civil justice, but I have read nothing in the Bill about individuals who may feel a deep sense of grievance. How do they put that right? I would like to hear about the appeals procedure. If that does not appear in the Bill, the relevant codes of practice through the certification officer or, preferably, ACAS should make it absolutely clear. I believe that the denial of someone’s trade union membership should test those with the power and authority to take that decision. I see no test whatever attached to the trade unions. What test have they got to meet? It is important. My noble friend Lord Lester of Herne Hill referred to the consideration of the Joint Committee on Human Rights. The Joint Committee has considered the matter but has not gone beyond the report that it published. However, there are serious doubts whether there is a breach of the Human Rights Act. There are concerns that Articles 9, 10 and 11 may well be breached. Those articles cover freedom of conscience, expression and assembly. I ask the Minister to have another look at whether the human rights situation is adequately addressed. In conclusion, I hope the Minister will say what criteria the decision to exclude or expel will be based on. How can a trade union be accountable for the decision? We must all be accountable for our actions. Finally, what procedures will be put in place to ensure that natural justice and legal redress are available to the individual?
- Time
- 15:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Campbell of AllowayConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, with respect, the noble Lord is saying—and he will correct me if I am wrong—that the procedures ordained by the Strasbourg court are “unfair”; he used that expression. He wants to introduce procedures which he thinks are fair, in substitution for the ordained procedures of that court. I am only trying to understand what the noble Lord is up to and what he is saying. Is that his case?
- Time
- 16:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Morris of HandsworthLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, in this instance the Brussels procedures are the Strasbourg court. It has spoken, and I respect its conclusions. I am arguing for the conventional and traditional route that we have always applied to our industrial relations procedure in this country. It is a principle of natural justice that if you are charged with, and are to answer, an offence, you have a right to know what the charge is. I stand by the principle that you are entitled to fair representation and to scrutinise the results by way of an appeal. I do not in any way, shape or form, cast any aspersions on what the Strasbourg court might or might not have said. The response of the British Government, your Lordships’ House and another place will resolve this issue. In these circumstances, the responsibility rests with us. In your Lordships’ House today, I argue for what we believe to be fair and just, measured against what Strasbourg might have said.
- Time
- 16:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Baroness Perry of SouthwarkConservative- Quote
- My Lords, I speak to my Amendment No. 34A, an amendment to subsection (b) in Amendment No. 33. It is on the supplementary list for the simple reason that I thought for a long time that the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Lester, covered sufficiently my concerns about this issue. However, the more I thought about the phrase “exceptional hardship”, the more that I thought that it was a rather sterner requirement of proof than I would have wished. My amendment does not take anything from the noble Lord’s words, “exceptional hardship”, but adds the words, “any financial disadvantage”. The noble Lord, Lord Morris, cited the example of the lorry driver who might lose his licence and, therefore, his livelihood. My examples are from the profession that I know well: teaching. It is little realised that, in the last year for which statistics were published, more than 1,800 teachers were accused of either sexual harassment or physical violence towards children, of which accusations less than 1 per cent were afterwards upheld. That is a huge number of people, whose lives were disrupted terribly. Often their marriages fell apart; they were denied access to their work for long periods while their case ground through the courts; and so on. It is a very serious matter. Now let us imagine the financial hardship of their having to pay for legal representation. As long as they were members of a recognised trades union, as the noble Lord said in his example of the lorry driver, they were entitled to free representation, which was paid for by their union. I remember being told when leaving university that I should join up to the teachers’ union fast. In those days we did not think of sexual harassment, but in case I was accused of hitting a child, the union would represent me and it would cost me nothing. These are important financial benefits, quite apart from health insurance and everything else. I quoted the statistics about teachers because that is the world I know. The financial benefit of free representation with the union’s financial help enabled people to survive. Let us remember that 99 per cent of cases proved to be blatantly unjust and only 1 per cent of cases were upheld. As has been rightly pointed out by the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, the union would have to look ahead at the point of excluding someone to see whether such exclusion would cause “exceptional hardship”. I hope that my more modest words, “any financial disadvantage”, would be clearer. We are all at risk of sympathising too much with the trades union and not enough with the individual because the case to which the European Court judgment gave rise was against people with whom we have very little sympathy. They were not very nice people in their political views, but it can happen to others whose views might be less distasteful. The rights of individuals and those of trades unions, as the later amendments of my noble friend Lord Campbell emphasise, must be got right in this legislation. My modest additional amendment, which would point out the financial disadvantage that loss of union membership could bring, might help us in our debate.
- Time
- 16:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord BachLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, this is a large and important group of amendments that enables us to address the issues raised by Clause 18 at an early stage in our deliberations today. Clause 18—formerly Clause 17—has aroused much debate throughout the Bill’s passage to date. The amendments give me a welcome opportunity to explain how the Government intend to reconcile, as far as we can, the differing views that have been expressed. It has been well worth having such a debate at this stage. I shall start with Amendment No, 33, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lester, and talk to the others in the group as well. All the amendments relate directly to Clause 18. A similar amendment was moved by the noble Lord in Committee, and this latest version certainly addresses one of the specific points that my noble friend Lord Jones raised in that debate—that the effect of the previous amendment was not restricted to exclusions or expulsions on grounds of political party membership alone, but included any decision to deny membership based on a person’s conduct. Although that was not the noble Lord’s intention, I am grateful to him for drafting a new amendment, which takes note of that point. We also made it clear in Committee that we wished to engage further with the noble Lord and his advisers before Report to see whether we could agree the way ahead. I thank him for making himself available. We have had detailed discussions with him at both ministerial and official level. My noble friend Lord Morris of Handsworth has also attended these meetings, which included a meeting with the honourable Pat McFadden MP, the Minister responsible for employment relations, and I think that everyone understands the position better as a result. I believe that significant progress has been achieved. The noble Lord has already said that his Amendment No. 33 is informed by the detailed discussions that he and my officials have held in the weeks and months since Committee. In a spirit of compromise—noble Lords have wanted to know the Government’s view on this since the start of the debate—we have offered to introduce an amendment to this Bill that would centre on the second of the two options presented in last year’s consultation document. Noble Lords will recall these two options. We know that this approach, option B, is preferred by the noble Lord, Lord Lester, and by many others who oppose the current version of Clause 18, which is based on what we describe as the deregulatory option A. We intend to present the government amendment at Third Reading. The noble Lord, Lord Lester, made it known that he wanted three types of safeguard to be clearly reflected in any government amendment. These safeguards are expressed in proposed new paragraph (a) of his present amendment and in paragraphs (a) and (b) of the new subsection 4C that proposed new paragraph (b) of his amendment would insert. Let me assure the House and the noble Lord that the planned government amendment contains these three categories of safeguard. The second of these safeguards concerns the procedures that unions follow when excluding or expelling members on these grounds. I know that procedural fairness has been a concern of the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway. I am very grateful to him for having met my noble friend Lord Jones, the Minister and myself during these proceedings. I hope that our proposed amendment, when it appears, will satisfy him, too. The Government need to assure themselves that each safeguard is appropriately expressed in terms that are neither too strong nor too weak. This takes time and is the reason why we could not table our amendment for consideration today. We want to ensure that our amendment is clear and provides the level of union autonomy that the ECHR judgment requires. It should also impose reasonable requirements on trade unions and reflect the principles of better regulation. In particular, we want to minimise the scope for politically inspired litigants to use imprecise wording as a basis for making vexatious complaints to the employment tribunal. I believe that the House shares this view. I will not go into detail today. If the noble Lord were to press Amendment No. 33, we would be concerned that it does not fully meet these tests, although we think that it goes a long way in the right direction. We continue to work on alternative wording and we will continue to consult the noble Lord during that process. I hope that we will be able to share the amendment with other noble Lords, including the opposition Front Bench, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway and other noble Lords—I am not discriminating between any of them—perhaps later this week, so that they can see our proposed amendment before it is tabled. If possible, we would like to see a compromise amendment, commanding the broad if not universal consent of this House, going to the other place, where the Bill has yet to be considered. We have held discussions with the TUC about the same issues and we will continue to talk to it. The TUC has also made it clear that it opposes any move to legislate for option B but, when our compromise appears, we will have to see what attitudes are taken by all parties in this House and outside. I believe that there is every prospect of finding a satisfactory compromise in time for Third Reading. Therefore, when the noble Lord comes to decide what to do with his amendment, I urge him to be good enough to withdraw it so that further consultation can occur.
- Time
- 16:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Lester of Herne HillNon-affiliated
- Quote
- My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who contributed to this important debate. I particularly thank the Minister for the detailed and careful way he replied to the various points that have been raised. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Morris of Handsworth, who was kind enough to refer to me as his noble friend. I regard myself as his friend. This is a matter that transcends parties. It is cross-party, and one of the great virtues of this House is that it is possible, on issues of this kind, to deal with matters beyond political tribalism. I also commend the noble Lord, Lord Henley, and the Official Opposition for the conspicuously fair and moderate way in which they approached this matter during our debates. I am grateful for that. The noble Lord, Lord Morris, referred to a pathway for protection. As I understand what was said by the Minister, he has given an assurance to the House that the three general safeguards in my amendment and the amendment tabled in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Morris, will be translated into proper statutory language by parliamentary counsel before Third Reading. I fully appreciate the complexity of that task, and I entirely accept that the Government will give effect to that assurance by producing language before Third Reading that will incorporate those three safeguards. That will be a victory for Parliament, this House and common sense. I am reminded of what Isabella said in “Measure for Measure”—that, “it is excellent To have a giant’s strength! But it is tyrannous To use it like a giant”. There are situations where Governments, trade unions or other bodies may have a giant’s strength, but it is tyrannous to abuse those powers. These safeguards are designed, as the noble Lord, Lord Morris, indicated, to write protection into the Bill as well as remedies. I believe it is entirely probable, and maybe even certain, that we will reach a consensual compromise at Third Reading, having made good use of the procedures of this House in Grand Committee and now. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
- Time
- 16:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office & Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform (Lord Jones of Birmingham)Crossbench- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 3:
- Time
- 16:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness Turner of CamdenLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I speak to the amendments in my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Wedderburn—unfortunately, he cannot be here today because he is ill—and the amendment from the Government. We heard some discussion about Clause 4 in Committee. We were concerned at what appeared to be an increase in the number of cases of a judge sitting alone without lay members. We were concerned that this might indicate a desire to phase out the work of lay members on tribunals, but we accept the assurance given to us by the Minister that the Government recognise the valuable role of lay members and are fully committed to the continuation of the existing tripartite structure. Therefore, we are not pursuing this issue further, but there remains concern about the circumstances in which cases can be determined without a hearing. It is important that vulnerable people understand what is involved and are able to make a decision in their own best interests. They have an entitlement to have their case heard by a tribunal that includes lay members and, if they waive such rights, they must know what they are doing. My noble friend Lord Wedderburn has drawn attention to a recent European Court of Human Rights decision—DH v Czech Republic—which deals precisely with the waiver of a right. The judgment is so important that I shall quote it. It says that, “under the Court’s case-law, the waiver of a right guaranteed by the Convention”— the European Convention on Human Rights— “in so far as such a waiver is permissible—must be established in an unequivocal manner, and be given in full knowledge of the facts, that is to say on the basis of informed consent … and without constraint”. That is precisely what our Amendment No. 6 says. We say that, “‘consent’ means agreement which is— (a) unequivocal, (b) in writing, (c) given without constraint by any person, and (d) given on the basis of informed consent”.
- Time
- 16:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord HenleyConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, I shall briefly respond to the noble Lord, Lord Jones. I welcome him back to his Bill. I imagine that he has been held up hard at work in Crewe and Nantwich. We are grateful to see him here. I am also grateful to the Government for responding to the amendment that the noble Lord, Lord Wedderburn, moved on the first day, I think, in Committee. Let me say how sad we are that the noble Lord, Lord Wedderburn, cannot be here today. He wrote to me about this problem and the ECHR judgment in the case of DH v Czech Republic. The Government have been correct in responding to the noble Lord’s point in this, so all we can say is that we are grateful for that. I am sorry that we will not be seeing the noble Lord later, as I was hoping to have his support on an amendment of mine.
- Time
- 16:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Jones of BirminghamCrossbench
- Quote
- My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Henley. I was actually speaking at a businesswomen’s event in Leicester this lunchtime. I believe that, if people have agreed to a speaking engagement some months ago, they should do everything that they can to try to fulfil their promise. Amendment No. 4 will be effected through our Amendment No. 5. Amendments Nos. 6, 7 and 8 would introduce additional legislative requirements for any written determination procedure. These are unnecessary and would in some cases add extra complication, complexity and cost. Amendment No. 6 proposes a list of criteria for establishing whether consent to a written determination is valid. Our amendment ensures that consent would have to be unequivocal and in writing. That is what is required by the case of DH and Others v the Czech Republic. “Without constraint” implies an assumption that parties could be subject to pressure to choose written determination. We do not believe that that will be an issue. Parties will have to consent expressly to the procedure. If they do not, they will proceed to a hearing, as is currently the case. This element of the amendment is not required. This brings us to informed consent. We shall ensure that parties receive sufficient information to make an informed decision about whether to consent to a determination without a hearing. We do not agree, however, that “informed consent” should be defined as “subject to receipt of independent advice”. Independent advice is defined in Section 288 of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992. That provision relates to a decision by parties to accept a compromise settlement, which would result in the parties forgoing their right to a determination of their case by an employment tribunal. The safeguard is appropriate in those circumstances. Consent to written determination is not analogous, since the case would be determined by an employment judge. Parties will have sufficient time to seek advice on consent—a minimum of three weeks, as we said in Grand Committee. It should be open to parties to decide not to seek advice, which may have time and cost consequences, if they so wish. Amendment No. 7 would establish by regulation that the judge’s decision in cases determined without a hearing would be notified to the parties and the public within two days of the decision. That is unnecessary. Currently, when a hearing takes place, a judgment with reasons is usually given orally at the end of the hearing to the parties and any members of the public present in the hearing room. A written copy of the judgment is either sent to the parties after the hearing or given to them on the day. Written reasons are given, if requested by a party, either at the hearing or within 14 days. While the Tribunals Service has internal targets for sending out judgments after a hearing, these are not set out in regulations. I can, however, assure noble Lords that the Tribunals Service acts quickly to notify the parties of the outcome, regularly exceeding internal targets. The Government do not believe that it is necessary to specify a target within regulations. In cases determined without a hearing, the Tribunals Service would routinely send the judgment to parties as soon as it was made. Any further incursion of regulations would, I hope noble Lords will agree, increase, rather than decrease, the red tape that employers suffer. Amendment No. 8 would restrict the determination of individual cases to a specific judge by imposing a legal requirement for the parties to be advised of the name of the judge who would determine their case, and for that information to be provided before the parties provide consent. This would create an unprecedented provision, not seen anywhere else across the judicial landscape, for the parties to have a right of approval of the judge who would determine their case. That, surely, cannot be right. We have full confidence in the ability of any judge to operate written determination procedures appropriately. Employment judges are appointed following a robust appointment process which ensures that they have the required experience and judicial capacity to judge in the complex jurisdictions that make up the canon of employment law. This amendment would also effectively restrict the designation of single cases to single judges and stifle the Tribunals Service’s ability efficiently to organise and manage cases in the most effective, expeditious and, presumably, cost-effective way. For instance, if the designated judge were unavailable to proceed with the determination, through illness or incapacity, it would not be possible to transfer the case to an alternative judge without beginning the notification and consent process all over again. How is that for causing further delay, further cost, further confusion and further frustration? That could hardly be in the interests of the parties as it would simply introduce delay and unnecessary bureaucracy into the proceedings. The Government believe that their amendment to Clause 4, which we discussed previously, provides all the safeguards necessary to ensure access to justice for all parties concerned. On Question, amendment agreed to. [Amendment No. 4 not moved.]
- Time
- 16:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Jones of BirminghamCrossbench
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 5:
- Time
- 16:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord BorrieLabour- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 9:
- Time
- 16:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness Turner of CamdenLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Borrie, as I did in Committee. He has brought forward a slightly altered amendment to try to meet some of the objections that were raised at that time. Whistleblowing protection is terribly important. We supported the Public Interest Disclosure Act when it was introduced because we felt that it provided a protection for individuals who blew the whistle on unsafe practices. It was important from a health and safety aspect and generally that this should be provided to individuals who were prepared to blow the whistle on incorrect and unacceptable practices. As my noble friend indicated, the amendment would discourage unscrupulous employers from trying to buy off whistleblowers as a cheaper option than dealing with the serious concern they may raise. Now that we have this slightly amended wording before the House, I hope the Minister will be prepared to accept the amendment this time round.
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Baroness WilcoxConservative- Quote
- My Lords, in Committee I spoke in support of the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, for raising these issues. I repeat that support today and hope that he has some success in persuading the Government of the seriousness of his concerns since we last discussed whistle blowing at work. As the noble Lord said, the amendment has been redrafted to address the concerns of organisations such as the CBI. I understand that there have been further meetings with the Government on this issue and I look forward to the Minister’s response. I hope to hear more encouraging news of the Government’s opinion on this matter than we have so far heard. “In the spirit of compromise” has been the Government’s favourite phrase in this Bill. I look forward to hearing it again in regard to the amendment.
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord RazzallLiberal Democrat- Quote
- My Lords, I, too, support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Borrie. Clearly this is a delicate issue, with arguments finely balanced on both sides, and I welcome the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, has watered down the amendment that he originally proposed in Committee to try to meet some of the concerns coming from the CBI and the EEF in particular. Two points are persuasive with me. First, as the noble Lord states, in principle it is strange that there should be any difference between the settlement of cases in employment tribunals and the settlement of cases in the High Court. We have reached the stage where, clearly, the employment tribunals provide just as significant a role in our judicial procedure as do the courts. Therefore it would seem odd that there should be any difference in the way these issues are treated. Secondly, on the figures, as Public Concern at Work has demonstrated, in 2005-06 there were 1,000 PIDA cases, of which at least 600 or 700 were settled. The ones that went to the tribunal went to litigation, effectively; for those, we know the information that the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, is requesting but for the others we do not. That seems strange in the balance of life. I therefore support the noble Lord’s amendment.
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Jones of BirminghamCrossbench
- Quote
- My Lords, Amendment No. 9 seeks to import into the employment tribunal provisions similar to those in Rule 5.4C of the Civil Procedure Rules. This would provide for the release into the public domain of information and documents relating to employment tribunal claims which include a claim under the Public Interest Disclosure Act, or PIDA. I recognise the genuine concern which has given rise to the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord Borrie and the attempt which has been made to limit the negative effects which I referred to when we discussed his amendment on the same issue in Grand Committee. Although I acknowledge the spirit of compromise to which the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, just referred, I feel that similar difficulties to those that were aired in Grand Committee still arise from this changed amendment. The current amendment proposes—and this is not a provision of the Civil Procedure Rules—that basic details, including names of parties, would be placed on a register and published within 28 days of the claim being received. It also seeks to import Civil Procedure Rule 5.4C, which provides that persons who are not a party to the case may obtain from the court a copy of the statement of case, although the court must consider rejecting or restricting the application if a party named on the statement of case requests it. Rule 5.4C also allows persons who are not parties to apply for permission to obtain copies of other documents from the proceedings. That might include witness statements, financial records or accounts. It would include seriously confidential information. I understand the genuine concern that has been expressed by Public Concern at Work, which campaigns on behalf of whistleblowers; that is, that the unlawful, fraudulent or dangerous behaviour that underlies genuine public interest disclosure claims should be tackled. I find that very encouraging, but I remain concerned, as do the Government, about the consequences that would follow if this amendment were implemented. We must look at the possible impact on parties whose details are published but against whom nothing has been proven. We cannot go down a road where material could be released on application which included unsubstantiated allegations. The fact that this material would be released only to non-parties who sought it does not remove the risk of unsubstantiated allegations being reported in the press, with serious consequences for the reputation of the firms concerned. As we know, the impression and perception created by the first publication in the press is always so much more effective than any retraction or statement to the contrary at a later date. That is true even when the party against whom the allegations are made has submitted a defence to the claim under the public interest disclosure legislation, because both the claim and the defence will relate to the alleged detriment to the claimant, not to the alleged underlying behaviour, be it fraud, unsafe working conditions or whatever. My right honourable friend in another place, Pat McFadden, met representatives of PCaW in February, and officials from the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform held a further meeting with them and representatives of the CBI and the EEF in April. All efforts have been made to understand and discuss the issues, but the fundamental objections to releasing unproven allegations into the public domain remains. Both the CBI and the EEF, while not condoning abusive or fraudulent behaviour by companies, oppose this amendment. I know my noble friend Lord Borrie was not seeking to be alarmist but he mentioned Northern Rock as one of the examples. We are all blessed with PhDs in hindsight. Given the current financial situation around the world, whether banks survive or not will depend largely on public confidence. One can just imagine some time ago there having been an enormous attack on the confidence of the whole financial system of the United Kingdom and beyond as a result of what this amendment proposes having taken root. I am very pleased that my noble friend Lady Turner recited her involvement and that of many trade unions in ensuring that whistleblowers obtained protection in the past. They have to have protection; otherwise, why would they do it? However, I am sure that noble Lords will agree that that protection brings with it a sense of responsibility. Too often, that protection is not used responsibly. If this amendment were implemented, we would find that press allegations often appeared that were detrimental to business and the employer, and which were not substantiated at that point in time—if they have been substantiated, that is an entirely different issue. I suspect that we would enter a bureaucratic and nightmare of time-delay where every application for papers would be opposed on those grounds. It is surely not in the interests of anybody if all that we are going to do is bring in another tier of delay and expense. I trust that my noble friend Lord Borrie will be prepared on that basis alone to withdraw his amendment.
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord BorrieLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend Lady Turner—and, if he had been here, no doubt my noble friend Lord Wedderburn—for supporting my revised amendment. I am grateful, too, for the support of the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, on behalf of the Conservative Opposition, and of the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, for the Liberal Democrats. Despite that widespread support from all sides, the response of my noble friend Lord Jones of Birmingham was extremely disappointing and to some extent rather astonishing. He knows, as I do, that there are published all sorts of allegations about individuals and firms, in terms of their being charged with fraud or accused of something, which are later disposed of in a negative way, with it all seeming in hindsight rather unfair that the allegations were made public. But that is part of the price we pay for open justice. It is astonishing that the noble Lord should say, by the pure chance that wrongful dismissal cases are brought in employment tribunals rather than in the ordinary High Court, that the civil procedure rules that I wanted to transplant into the employment tribunal field should not be allowed. I remind the Minister that the purpose of the Public Interest Disclosure Act was not just to give a private remedy to a private individual who was wrongfully dismissed for blowing the whistle on some wrongdoing, or alleged wrongdoing, at his place of work; it was designed to support the public interest, to deter wrongdoing in future and to ensure that wrongdoing was not hidden from public sight. The DTI—it was long before, I accept, my noble friend’s time at the new department—introduced regulations to stop any publicity except in the circumstance of a final tribunal determination. That seemed to go completely against the purpose of the Public Interest Disclosure Act, which was to bring things out, preferably via the employer or a regulator rather than via the press, to ensure that the employer would do something about it. Unfortunately, if things can be hushed up and a settlement made without any public understanding of what is going on, then the wrongdoing may continue; there is far less of a deterrent against wrongdoing being attacked, criticised and dealt with. Unfortunately the employer may not feel a need, because sometimes it is easier to shoot the messenger—the whistleblower—than to deal with those initiating the wrongdoing in the first place. I have to say to my noble friend the Minister—he will forgive me, I hope, for putting it strongly; we have known one another for many years—that I am very disappointed with his answer. I shall have to discuss with my advisers what to do before Third Reading. Of course I beg leave to withdraw my amendment, but I do so with great reluctance. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
- Time
- 17:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord Hunt of WirralConservative- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 10:
- Time
- 17:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Campbell of AllowayConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, I support my noble friend, for all the reasons that he has given. I have a word of gratitude for the Minister for having taken note of this matter in Grand Committee. Because of his past experience, I hope that he will understand, inevitably, the tremendous importance and distinction of mediation, which keeps parties going on together, rather than a form of conciliation, which tends to lay them apart. If we can go forward, in principle, with these amendments, it will be a very good thing.
- Time
- 17:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord HenleyConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, I offer my support to my noble friend Lord Hunt for his amendment. I declare an interest as a CEDR-credited mediator, a route which I went down following the advice of my noble friend, who suggested that it was something that I might be interested in doing. Whether I am any good as a mediator is another matter—but certainly it is a very useful process and one that protects a large number of people from the potential later ravages of lawyers. I support my noble friend’s amendment and hope that the Government can give it a sympathetic response.
- Time
- 17:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Jones of BirminghamCrossbench
- Quote
- My Lords, the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, propose a range of measures to promote greater use of conciliation and mediation in the early stages of an employment dispute. I personally thank him for giving oxygen and an airing to the whole issue. The more people in all walks of life—people who might come before a tribunal—are aware of the facility available, the more efficient, quick, cheap and understandable the process will be. I am sure that we all agree with the sentiment behind the amendments even if we do not feel that it is appropriate in this case. The Government firmly believe that more disputes could benefit from early mediation and conciliation because the problems will be resolved at the earliest opportunity. We announced on 6 February that we intend to invest significant additional resources in ACAS’s pre-claim activities to make this service more widely available. We are also investing significantly in improving the ACAS helpline so that more people are able to benefit from advice on the options available for resolving employment disputes. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked whether it is possible for ACAS to draw on outside parties to facilitate and complement that. I will get back to him on that. The noble Lords, Lord Hunt and Lord Henley, come from a profession where I spent 20 years. When I was an articled clerk, one of my first principals had a sign above his desk saying: “Settle out of court? Where’s the fun in that?”. I hope those days are over. As I said in Grand Committee, we believe that the parties should choose the ways that make most sense to them in resolving their dispute. We believe that mediation by private providers can play a crucial role and intend to promote its benefits effectively and systematically. However, we believe that these amendments are unnecessary in the light of the measures that are already in place or that we are now proposing. Perhaps I may explain that. I shall consider each amendment in turn, starting with Amendment No. 11. The first two elements of Amendment No. 11 would include mediation within the heading of the section specified of the Employment Tribunals Act 1996, and insert into subsection (2) that a conciliation officer may use mediation or conciliation when endeavouring to promote a settlement, before proceedings are instituted. Mediation and conciliation are both elastic terms with disagreement among practitioners about what each means in practice. ACAS uses a variety of techniques, including telephone discussion and face-to-face discussion, in seeking to resolve disputes at the early stage. I do not believe that including both these terms in the legislation would have any practical impact. The existing legislation already enables ACAS to use a variety of techniques to resolve disputes. The amendment changes nothing. The third element of Amendment No. 11 seeks to insert a provision that ACAS conciliation officers may engage outside mediators to assist in the settlement of proceedings. Nothing now prevents conciliation officers suggesting to parties that the help of outside mediators could be worth while. That is done in individual cases every day. ACAS would not, however, pay the fees of such mediators; it has to be right that parties themselves should bear their cost if persuaded of the benefits. The noble Lord’s amendment could have the effect of requiring public funding for private mediation. Clause 5 provides for ACAS’s existing duty to conciliate in cases where no claim has yet been presented to an employment tribunal to become a power. Amendment No. 12 would remove that change. We cannot support this. It may be helpful to explain the context of our proposed change. ACAS currently has a duty to offer conciliation in certain cases which are capable of becoming the subject of an employment tribunal claim where both potential parties request it, or, where one party makes a request, the conciliation officer judges that there is a good prospect of success. That duty has been on the statute books since the 1970s. During the 1980s, ACAS increasingly found employers asking ACAS to assist with cases which were never likely to become the subject of an employment tribunal claim, at the taxpayer’s expense. In response, the ACAS council decided to interpret the duty strictly in the spirit in which it was intended, so that the pre-claim conciliation service could be focused on cases which were otherwise more or less certain to become the subject of a tribunal claim. As a result, the numbers carried out have been small. Following overwhelming support for more early ACAS conciliation from respondents to the consultation on the Gibbons review, the Government will invest up to £37 million in additional conciliation resource and in improving the ACAS advice service, which, among other things, will be able to explain to people what help is available to resolve disputes and offer the statutory ACAS conciliation service in cases which seem likely to benefit from it and where the parties wish it. There is a risk that demand for ACAS conciliation services will exceed supply once the service is actively made available as we now intend. We therefore wish to ensure that ACAS is able effectively to manage the new case load without having unduly to restrict the use of its services. That is why we wish to change the existing duty to conciliate to a power to enable it to do so without being exposed to legal jeopardy. Amendment No. 13 would add to Section 18(6) of the Employment Tribunals Act words enabling the encouragement of the use of mediation as a first step in any conciliation process. The subsection already provides for this through a broad requirement that, “a conciliation officer shall, where appropriate, have regard to the desirability of encouraging the use of other procedures available for the settlement of grievances”. Finally, Amendment No. 10 also seeks to encourage employers to use conciliation and mediation. ACAS plays a key and valued role in the resolution of workplace disputes and the Government are supportive of codes of practice issued by ACAS. As your Lordships will be aware, ACAS is revising its code of practice on disciplinary and grievance procedures to be principles-based and concise, supported by fuller non-statutory guidance. Tribunals will then be able to consider the appropriateness of parties’ behaviour in the particular circumstances of a case against the principles set out in the code, in line with the conclusions of the Gibbons review and the public consultation. This is a sensible and balanced way of encouraging employers and employees to follow the principles of good practice in the early resolution of workplace disputes and overcomes the unforeseen and undesirable results experienced when detailed procedures were enshrined in primary legislation. I circulated an early draft of the code in Committee. The draft has now been issued by ACAS for public consultation. All interested parties can comment on it to ACAS. It clearly says that employers and employees should do all that they can to resolve disciplinary and grievance issues in the workplace, and the foreword to the draft makes specific reference to third-party assistance. ACAS will also be considering including further guidance on obtaining outside help, such as mediation, in its accompanying detailed guidance booklet. That might give even more help and assistance on the issue raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. In conclusion, these amendments are unnecessary as there will be more than adequate measures to encourage conciliation and mediation where it is appropriate, whereas legislating would lead us back into being overly prescriptive and lacking flexibility. Please do not mistake the Government’s opposition to these amendments for a stance of not encouraging mediation and conciliation. That must be the way forward, but we must ensure that we do not remove flexibility or become overregulated and overly prescriptive, and ultimately fall foul of the law of unintended consequences.
- Time
- 17:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Hunt of WirralConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for a positive response to which I will return in just a minute. I first thank my noble friends Lord Campbell and Lord Henley for their support, drawn in both their cases from a substantial understanding of what is required. Despite the Minister’s reference to the sign on his desk saying, “Settle out of court? What is the fun in that?”, I sense that he was describing those as the bad old days to which we should not return. I could not agree with him more. I found the Minister’s phrase that there would “effectively and systematically” be promotion of independent mediation remarkably helpful. That is a substantial move forward from our previous debate, although at that time I was erring down the road of compulsion. He and other noble Lords persuaded me that perhaps, as with Michael Gibbons’s findings, compulsion is not necessarily the right way forward. I was particularly intrigued by the Minister’s comment that demand may exceed supply. I hoped that he might return to the point that I raised specifically, which was that when demand exceeds supply, does ACAS have the power to engage the private sector to bring its resources to assist ACAS in an independent mediation? I can well understand that if parties have decided to go down the mediation route, ACAS should not pay the bill, but it surely fits in with the Government’s attitude to public/private partnerships that there should be a close working relationship between those who provide mediation services and ACAS. When demand exceeds supply, there would then be an opportunity to press a lever marked “private-sector support” that ACAS can call in.
- Time
- 17:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Jones of BirminghamCrossbench
- Quote
- My Lords, I am pleased to reassure the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, on that point. I am a huge fan of public/private partnerships and the fusion of powers, facilities, opportunities, skill and expertise of both sectors to come to a better result. Indeed, what works matters and what matters works. It will come down to a question of cost, but I will investigate the issue and take a personal interest in it.
- Time
- 17:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Hunt of WirralConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister who, I understand, has additional resources, to which he referred. I hope that they will be put to the best possible effect, giving real value for money for the taxpayer, which must involve some form of public/private partnership. I am grateful to the Minister for what he said about the code. I have written to him suggesting an addition that might be made to it to ensure that conciliation, mediation or independent investigation should be included in the code. I know that some are a little worried that that would add to the expense, but the great advantage of mediation, as my noble friend Lord Henley knows, is that there is comparatively little preparatory cost. All the mediator requires to know is exactly what the parties want to achieve and a brief history of what has happened. The mediator then decides how best to resolve the dispute. It is all pretty easy, quick and simple.
- Time
- 17:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Jones of BirminghamCrossbench
- Quote
- My Lords, I am in receipt of the noble Lord’s letter, dated 15 May. I will revert back to him on all four points, especially the suggestions on the code, as quickly as possible.
- Time
- 17:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Hunt of WirralConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, what can I say to the Minister except “thank you”? I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 5 [Conciliation before bringing of proceedings]: [Amendments Nos. 11 to 13 not moved.]
- Time
- 17:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord HenleyConservative
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 14:
- Time
- 17:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord BachLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Henley, for this amendment, which would preclude an employment judge from taking part in the determination of any case in all circumstances where he or she has been involved in mediation. The present legal position is that the express consent of all parties is required before a mediating judge can determine such a case. I agree with the noble Lord that in general, and as a matter of course, it is desirable that mediating judges should play no part in the determination of cases. Parties need to have confidence in the impartial judgment of the tribunal. However, if they do, why should it be impossible for the mediating judge to be part of the employment tribunal? It is because the parties need to have confidence in the impartial judgment of the tribunal that, in the recent Tribunals Service trial of judicial mediation in employment tribunals, the rules of the scheme provided that a mediating judge could not take part in the judging of a case. It is right that this should be the general rule. We should be mindful that “mediation” is, as I understand it—there are much greater experts in the House than me—a fairly elastic term that is undefined in law. It is a broad church that can stretch from activity that is close to conciliation, where the mediator seeks to establish common ground between parties but does not take a view on the substantive merits of the case, to a model more like arbitration, where the mediator proposes a solution having heard the arguments of the parties. Where it is more akin to conciliation, we think that there is an argument for using the law to prevent a judge’s involvement. We think that the argument for using the law to prevent a judge’s involvement in the determination of a case is less strong in the mediation model, which has been used in the recent pilot of judicial mediation in employment tribunal cases. We sympathise with the arguments advanced in favour of the amendment, but is it right to prescribe in legislation that no mediating employment judge can ever subsequently be involved in determining a case? There could be circumstances in which such involvement would be in the interests of justice. In a complex case, a mediating judge would become familiar with the facts and, if mediation failed, there might be unnecessary delay if the parties had to set out their respective positions in detail to another judge. In such circumstances, ought we to say—this is the question that I pose to the House—that in law, even if the parties themselves desire it, the original judge cannot continue in any circumstances to determine the case? We are not sure that that is not going too far. Parliament accepted the argument that I have just put forward in relation to other tribunals when it passed the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act last year. That included a provision that a mediating judge could take part in the determination of a case where all parties agreed. We are not sure that the case has been made for treating mediation in the context of an employment tribunal differently from mediation in the context of other tribunals. Our view is that the existing legal position, whereby a mediating judge could be involved in subsequent determination, but only with the express consent of the parties, is the appropriate way for statute to deal with this matter. That is why, although sympathetic to much that the noble Lord, Lord Henley, has said, we think that it would be wrong to put this into legislation and I invite him to withdraw his amendment.
- Time
- 17:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord HenleyConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, I am afraid that I am not happy with that response. I am sad, again, that I do not have the noble Lord, Lord Wedderburn, here to argue the case better than I can. However, I quote from what he said in Committee: “To act in a judicial capacity is totally different from acting as a mediator. Once you have acted as a mediator, you have taken positions on the arguments. It is incomprehensible to me to understand why the Government would resist, as I have suggested … an amendment to the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007”. Earlier, on the subject of consent, he made his argument even clearer: “Even with the consent of the parties, it should surely not be proper”.—[Official Report, 4/2/08; col. GC 491-92.] This is a very small amendment. I appreciate that many of the noble Lord’s friends may be away in Crewe and Nantwich, but on this occasion I prefer to test the opinion of the House.
- Time
- 17:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness Turner of CamdenLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 15:
- Time
- 17:49
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord HoyleLabour- Quote
- My Lords, I rise to speak briefly in support of the amendment moved by my noble friend Lady Turner. I shall not take up the time of the House because I know we are up against it, but there are over 1,000 cases, often involving people who do not understand what they have to do to recover the money and, even if they do, cannot afford to follow it through. We are following the advice given to us by Citizens Advice, and all that is being asked is that the Government take over these cases to ensure that these people obtain justice. I hope that when the Minister replies he is sympathetic to what we are putting forward.
- Time
- 17:49
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RazzallLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- My Lords, I, too, support this amendment. As the noble Baroness rightly said, this has been a concern of Citizens Advice for a considerable number of months. I shall not repeat what the previous two speakers said, but it is apparent that those less well off in our society are often being exploited by rogue employers. They eventually get an award, often at the instigation of the local citizens advice bureau, and then they give up because they cannot face the procedure or afford the legal and court fees. Like the noble Baroness, this side has been arguing for this. We have both taken up the advice and research of Citizens Advice, and I hope that the Government will find a way of taking on board the points that have been made.
- Time
- 17:49
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord BachLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I thank my noble friend for her amendment. We discussed this matter in Grand Committee on an amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Wedderburn. It addressed the same issue, although in different terms. I said then, and I maintain, that the Government recognise the need to address the recovery of awards, but we do not believe that direct enforcement, as proposed in this amendment, is the right way to tackle the issue. As the law currently stands, employment tribunal awards may be enforced, after the statutory 42-day period for payment, in the same way as county court judgments, by means of a court order. Interest is payable after the 42-day period in most cases. We are aware of the need to address the enforcement of employment tribunal awards and, as was said in Committee, we are already taking action to make the enforcement of awards easier—my noble friend Lady Turner was kind enough to mention that. I shall repeat briefly what we are doing. The Tribunal Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 provides for the enforcement of awards in all tribunals as if they were payable under a county court order, so the claimant does not have to go through the county court but can go straight to the bailiffs for enforcement after the 42 days. The same Act provides that a legally binding agreement brokered by ACAS will be enforceable in the same way and it provides for unpaid awards to be included on the Register of Judgments and Orders. That is likely to make it more difficult for respondents who have defaulted on payment of awards to obtain credit. It is currently intended to implement these measures in April 2009 at the same time as the statutory dispute procedures under the current Bill. We think that is the appropriate way to deal with those respondents who fail to pay awards due to claimants. We should allow time for these measures to bed down, but of course we need to assess their impact. It is a long-held principle of civil justice that the conduct of proceedings should rest largely in the hands of the parties concerned, and we do not believe that the establishment of a state mechanism for the enforcement of employment tribunal awards is justified when a simpler solution is to hand. I should declare an interest as a long time ago I was chairman of a local citizens advice bureau for three years, and it follows that I have the greatest respect for Citizens Advice and the work it does in providing free advice to some of the most vulnerable in society. It argues that registration of the award in the county court is not enough and that state-led enforcement on behalf of the claimant is needed. It suggests that this might be undertaken either by directly employed lawyers or by the commercial firm, Sheriffs Lodgment Centre. We believe that we should first assess the impact of the changes due in April 2009, which I understand that Citizens Advice supports, as far as they go, although it does not think they go far enough. Late last Thursday, we received the interim report on the research, mentioned by my noble friend Lady Turner, commissioned by Citizens Advice into the scale of the issue. We have not had time to assess it fully, but Ministers have asked officials to meet Citizens Advice when the final report is available to discuss the findings and the implications for enforcement. The Government are also commissioning their own research on the payment and enforcement of awards. As was said in Committee, we are, in addition, providing help to vulnerable claimants in the Bill, by extending tribunals’ discretion to make additional awards against respondents to cover the full financial loss arising from money not paid or unlawfully withheld in certain simple monetary claims. The Government share the concern that Citizens Advice has brought to our attention—through this amendment moved by my noble friend—that enforcement of awards is important. We want to give time to the measures that we have taken to bed down and see that they work in practice. It is on that basis that I invite my noble friend to withdraw her amendment.
- Time
- 17:49
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness Turner of CamdenLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I thank the Minister for that very detailed response. I noted, particularly, that he referred to the possibility of an arrangement that involved going straight to the bailiffs, which I think Citizens Advice would have supported, judging by the briefing that it supplied to me. I am interested to learn that the Government are commissioning their own inquiry and that there is an intention to meet citizens advice bureaux to discuss the interim report. While I would like the amendment that has been suggested by the CABs to have been agreed to, it seems that the Government are aware of the problems and that some action will be taken. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 9 [Notices of underpayment]:
- Time
- 18:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Jones of BirminghamCrossbench
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 16:
- Time
- 18:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness WilcoxConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, I am glad that with this amendment the Government have started to appreciate that the world of employment law regulation is an extremely complicated one for employers to navigate and that sometimes mistakes can happen. I have no doubt that it is with the help of the noble Lord, Lord Jones, who, as he said, was the director-general of the CBI for quite a long time. He has brought this new thinking into a Labour Government. However, I am concerned at how far this amendment will be implemented. In his letter of 13 May, for which I thank him, he said that he would consider waiving the penalty for underpayment only if the employer had been misadvised by another government agency. A government agency gives wrong advice to a small employer doing his best to keep up with the realms of regulation issued by DBERR, yet there is a possibility that the employer will be expected to pay for the mistake. Excuse me. Would my noble friend take over?
- Time
- 18:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord HenleyConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, I shall continue with what my noble friend was saying. The Government said in Committee that their intention behind imposing a penalty on underpayment of wages was to deter wilful underpayers. If this is the case, why are they not immediately providing an exemption for those solutions where the underpayment was clearly a mistake? This refusal on the part of the Government to appreciate the difficulty that even the most careful employers have in becoming fully compliant has led to such burdens being placed on small businesses.
- Time
- 18:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Jones of BirminghamCrossbench
- Quote
- My Lords, I assure the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox—whom I hope will quickly recover—that the example I was using of one department in government giving advice to an employer, which turns out to have been wrong advice in the light of the judgment of another part of government, was just one example. Indeed, I have no evidence of the fact that it currently happens. I was merely trying to illuminate the point at issue. On Question, amendment agreed to.
- Time
- 18:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord BachLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendments Nos. 17 to 28:
- Time
- 18:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness Turner of CamdenLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 29:
- Time
- 18:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord HoyleLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I support my noble friend on this amendment. We took away the earlier, all-embracing amendment and narrowed it down to ships such as ferries that operate regularly between the United Kingdom and EU ports or to the Isle of Man and Jersey. We think that the measure is capable of being enforced and that it is essential that it should be enforced; it is a matter of justice for the people who work on those ships. Once again, I hope that the Minister will look at the amendment and agree with us on the matter. As the Government admitted in Committee, there are anomalies, such as in relation to Shetland. However, let us go a little further and apply this on a broader scale to the ferries and other ships that operate regularly.
- Time
- 18:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord BachLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Turner for moving the amendment, which, as she said, has been drawn more narrowly and specifically than the previous one. We are grateful to her for the work that she has done on it. I am afraid that we still feel that the amendment, even as newly drafted, is unworkable. My noble friend Lord Jones wrote to Members of the Committee on the matter, but it is still useful to remind ourselves to which seafarers the minimum wage applies at present. Under present legislation, all resident and non-resident seafarers are entitled to the minimum wage while they are in the UK’s internal waters. A seafarer on a UK-registered ship anywhere in the world is entitled to the national minimum wage unless his employment is wholly outside the UK or he is not ordinarily resident in the UK. The position is that, at the moment, a wide range of people who work in the seafaring industry are due to receive the national minimum wage. Our problems with the amendment are as follows. First, it would extend the minimum wage to all seafarers on UK-registered ships, including seafarers who do not ordinarily live in the UK or who work wholly outside it. It was never the intention of the minimum wage legislation to extend rights to workers who have no link with the UK. There is also the real possibility that the amendment might have damaging consequences for our own merchant fleet. Extending the minimum wage to all seafarers on all UK ships wherever in the world they trade carries with it the risk that, as my noble friend herself pointed out, companies could change the flag of their ships to that of another country to avoid paying the minimum wage. The seafarers would be no better off and the UK would suffer a considerable disadvantage in terms of the number of ships carrying the UK flag, which I understand to be a matter of great significance in the maritime world. The amendment would also extend the right to the minimum wage not only to mariners on UK-registered ships but to those on foreign-flagged ships. Attempting to apply the right on foreign-flagged vessels would raise difficulties, of which we also spoke, about the right of foreign vessels to enjoy innocent passage in our territorial waters. Because of the existence of this right, which is indeed enshrined in the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, UK-flagged ships will not be interfered with off the coasts of other states. We argue that it is dangerous to interfere with this diplomatic balance. Some ships plying trade between two UK ports—for example, between Aberdeen and Lerwick in Shetland—will spend part of their journey outside internal and territorial waters on the high seas. The new amendment would apply the minimum wage to ships of any flag on these services, as well as to services to the Channel Islands. The UK certainly does not have jurisdiction on foreign ships while they are on the high seas, so this would not be possible; there is no way in which we could insist that it were done.
- Time
- 18:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord RosserLabour- Quote
- My Lords, my noble friend referred to innocent passage. Is that the basis of the Government’s objection to proposed new paragraph (b) in the amendment, or is he arguing that the national minimum wage could not apply on ships operating scheduled services between UK and EU ports and that that would be in breach of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea?
- Time
- 18:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord BachLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, innocent passage is not to be disregarded entirely as an argument. The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea says that UK-flagged ships will not be interfered with off the coasts of other states. That is important for UK ships in some parts of the world. In practice, it means that they are not searched, looked at or stopped in the course of their business. That is a kind of mutual diplomatic balance. It is certainly one of the arguments, which is why I use it. I come on, briefly, to the anomalies which, I concede, clearly exist here. I hope that that may satisfy my noble friend Lady Turner. We do not have jurisdiction over foreign ships; there is no point in pretending that we have. We have some sympathy with the reasons for tabling this amendment. We are not setting our face against considering the anomalies; I use the word used by my noble friend. This undoubtedly underlies the concerns. There are issues which concern the union and seafarers. My noble friend Lord Rosser referred to ferry routes in particular in his intervention. I invite the union and other interested parties to write to the Minister, who I am sure would be prepared to see them about this issue, so that it can be considered in detail. We do not think that the way of dealing with this difficulty—and there clearly are difficulties as far as particular ferry routes are concerned—is to pass an amendment such as this, which would also allow other inappropriate matters to occur. Innocent passage only applies on territorial seas. However, I am advised that it is even more difficult for us to affect what happens on the high seas. I do not want my noble friend Lady Turner to think that we are completely unsympathetic to what underlies this amendment, but we cannot accept it for the reasons I have outlined. I recommend contact with my right honourable friend.
- Time
- 18:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness Turner of CamdenLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that response, although it is a bit disappointing; I had hoped for a more welcoming response to the efforts that the union has made to come to terms with the arguments made against the original amendment in Committee. I am glad to learn that, as far as the anomalies are concerned, arrangements will be made for a meeting with the Minister to discuss these issues if the union wishes, which I am sure it does. I agree that the issues are quite complex, but there is a case for all seafarers working on British ships to be awarded the minimum wage. It still seems unfair that if two people are working side by side, one should be earning about half of what the other earns for doing exactly the same work. I am reminded of the Labour Party’s 1993 maritime strategy document Full Steam Ahead, which I believe was written by my right honourable friend John Prescott, then Shadow Secretary of State for Transport. On the issue that I have just been talking about, he said: “This discrimination will not be tolerated in the egalitarian society to which the Labour Party aspires. Therefore we are pledged to the principle of pay parity and the harmonisation of working conditions for all seafarers on UK-flagged vessels, in accordance with the European Social Charter, and new employment standards will apply to seafarers, including Labour’s proposed statutory minimum wage”. The union, quite rightly, regarded that as some sort of promise. I am sorry that we have got no further towards it than we have this afternoon. Nevertheless, I accept what the Minister has said, and will pass that on to the union. I am sure that the union will take up the possibility of a meeting about anomalies with the Minister. There are still issues about innocent passage, raised by my noble friend Lord Rosser, and the noble Lord, Lord Hoyle, which we are not happy about and need clarification. Although I am withdrawing the amendment, it is with a certain sadness, because I had hoped that there would have been more of a welcome to the union’s attempt to meet the objections that were raised last time. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
- Time
- 18:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord James of BlackheathConservative- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 30:
- Time
- 18:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness WilcoxConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, I first apologise to the House for my earlier coughing fit. I particularly thank my noble friend Lord Henley for taking over with my brief from the middle of nowhere, the Minister, who came outside to make sure that I was still alive, and the noble Baroness, Lady Cohen, who rushed forward with an antihistamine tablet and told me most firmly that it was tree pollen to which I was allergic. I have taken that pill and here I am, feeling much better, but I apologise to the House. I support what my noble friend Lord James of Blackheath said about the need to ensure that agencies providing cheap, temporary and young staff in large numbers appreciate the youth and inexperience of many of them and take reasonable steps to protect them from undue potential pressure. In Committee, the Minister said that the Government supported the intention behind the amendments that were then tabled; he then gave a long list of reasons why none of my noble friend’s suggestions was suitable. The amendment has since been amended and now has only one suggestion in it, so perhaps the Minister will be able to spend a little less time explaining why my noble friend is wrong and, instead, a little more time on what the Government intend to do.
- Time
- 18:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Jones of BirminghamCrossbench
- Quote
- My Lords, this amendment seeks to give employment agencies a statutory duty to protect the welfare of temporary staff where 30 or more temporary workers under the age of 18 are engaged on the same assignment. The Government support the intention behind the amendment; the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, correctly referred to the sentiment coming from us as well as from the noble Lord, Lord James of Blackheath. It is essential to have appropriate protection for vulnerable agency workers, particularly where young workers are engaged on assignments away from home. However, it is not clear that this amendment would provide significant additional protection in practice. Existing employment agency legislation already covers most of the amendment’s proposals and seeks to provide a proper balance between the interests of agency workers, the companies that hire them and the agencies themselves. Subsection (1) of the proposed new Section 6A states: “Any person carrying on an employment agency or an employment business that places over 30 temporary staff under the age of 18 in the fulfilment of a single contract shall have a duty to protect the welfare of those staff”. However, paragraph 20(1)(b) of the Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment Businesses Regulations 2003, otherwise known as the conduct regulations, already requires the employment agency to make all reasonable practical enquiries prior to the placement, “to ensure that it would not be detrimental to the interests of the work-seeker” to work in the position offered by the hirer. Indeed, that is the case for all placements—not just those covered by the noble Lord’s amendment. In addition, under paragraphs 24(7) and 24(8) of the conduct regulations, parental consent is required for individuals under the age of 18 where an assignment requires them to live away from home. I understand that the amendment seeks to address, among other things, situations where assignments take young workers away from home for sporting or other events that involve overnight stays. Subsection (2) of the proposed new section requires that an agency or employment business must arrange for a “responsible person” to be present at the workplace for the duration of the assignment. In practice, any agency or employment business that supplies as many as 30 young people on an assignment would also ensure that appropriate arrangements were in place for their supervision and control. The supervision might be carried out by the agency or employment business, or by the business hiring the people. Those supervising would be responsible for ensuring that the protections for workers under health and safety legislation were in place. There are specific provisions in paragraph 19 of the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 to cover the protection of young people. In broad terms, employers have a duty to protect young people at work, “from any risks to their health or safety which are a consequence of their lack of experience, or absence of awareness of existing or potential risks or the fact that young persons have not yet … matured”. That definition is in existing legislation. It does not prevent an employer employing a young person where necessary for his or her training, where the young person will be supervised by a competent person and where any risk will be reduced to the lowest reasonably practicable level.
- Time
- 18:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord James of BlackheathConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, I thank the Minister for that response. I think he said twice that the Government recognise and support the principle but he said three times that it is too difficult to do anything about it. I used to have a boss at Ford Motor Company who had three files on his desk—“In”, “Out” and “Too Hard”. I wonder what the state of the Minister’s desk is if he thinks this issue is “too hard”. As the Minister rightly said, the circumstances of this issue are almost too important to ignore. He has reasonable grounds for being concerned as to how he should deal with it but, equally, he said we can start with the law. Why does not the department start with the law as it stands and try to apply that to the principle of the case at Manchester United, about which we have been talking openly? In that situation, they were not professional girls employed by any of the agencies concerned but we do not know whether they were recruited by the personnel executives of the agency or by its younger staff. The story is that a fee of £100 was paid to each girl for attendance, some £50 of which had to be given back to the recruiting agent as a thank you for the ticket, which then became quite a saleable commodity in and around the clubs of Manchester that night. In those circumstances, that would be a clear breach of the law because the agents had accepted a fee from the parties seeking the job. That is outlawed by the law confirmed on 17 December. The Minister could start with that and investigate the issue. If it turns out to be the case, he should start proceedings. He would then have some sympathy from us because he would be working on the law as it stands and trying to make it work. To do otherwise would bring it into disrepute. I accept that the Government are not going to do anything about it at this stage. But the circumstances are so important that the Minister should undertake to come back and tell us where and when it will be the right place to do something about it. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 18 [Exclusion or expulsion from trade union for membership of political party]:
- Time
- 18:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Campbell of AllowayConservative
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 31:
- Time
- 18:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Jones of BirminghamCrossbench
- Quote
- My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, for his suggestion and for his proposal. I can answer him succinctly—yes, yes and yes. The Government are seeking to develop an amendment which will cover the amendments of the noble Lords, Lord Lester and Lord Campbell of Alloway. We are working on it but it is not yet ready to bring before your Lordships and it will take some time. But, on the basis that I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, that his suggestions will be taken into account and that I will stay in touch to ensure that that happens, I hope he will feel able to withdraw his amendments. I am grateful to the noble Lord for what he has said.
- Time
- 18:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Campbell of AllowayConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, with those kind assurances from the Minister, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendment No. 32 not moved.] [Amendment No. 33 not moved.] [Amendments Nos. 34, 34A and 35, as amendments to Amendment No. 33, not moved.] [Amendment No. 36 not moved.] [Amendment No. 37, as an amendment to Amendment No. 36, not moved.]
- Time
- 18:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord BachLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I beg to move that the House do adjourn during pleasure until 7 pm. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to. [The Sitting was suspended from 6.58 to 7 pm.]
- Time
- 18:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗