Report stage in the Lords
- Speaker
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Rooker)Labour- Quote
- My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now further considered on Report. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to. Clause 36 [Trading Schemes]:
- Time
- 15:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord Woolmer of LeedsLabour- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 183A:
- Time
- 15:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Baroness Carnegy of LourConservative- Quote
- My Lords, it seems to me, having listened carefully to the noble Lord, Lord Woolmer, that the nightmare world that he has described as possible, should personal carbon allowances be introduced—whether by the Liberal Democrats or anybody else—makes the amendment essential. I hope that your Lordships will accept it.
- Time
- 15:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne DomerLiberal Democrat- Quote
- My Lords, in Committee I spoke from the Back Benches to my amendment on this interesting issue. I welcomed the fact that Defra was funding a study into it and that the RSA and another think tank, the IPPR, were also doing studies into it. There is a lot of interest in whether some form of personal carbon allowance would be one of the mechanisms that could help us in the fight against climate change.
- Time
- 15:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord May of OxfordCrossbench- Quote
- My Lords, I have sympathy with the arguments put by the noble Lord, Lord Woolmer, but on the other hand, as I have said before, this is a Bill for the long term. In World War 2 we had rationing—or, rather, you had; I was an infant in Australia—and I am sure it was difficult, but at the time it was necessary. It is not clear, as we approach the middle of the century—which is what the Bill is looking at—that we will not be in a position where something of wartime immediacy and urgency will be needed. For that reason I am certainly not urging that we put in the Bill something that says, “We will do this”, but I find it odd that we should put in the Bill something that says, “We won’t do this”. That is why I hope that the amendment will not end up in the Bill.
- Time
- 15:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord Lea of CrondallNon-affiliated- Quote
- My Lords, I shall take a similar line to the noble Lord, Lord May. At a conceptual level, there is nothing wrong with the idea of a ration book. In the Stern report, the global carbon account conceptually gives us one tonne each around the world. Therefore, in some conceptual sense, we can buy the 90 per cent of the African units that Africa does not need at the moment. It is a redistribution from the rich to the poor, which is a point that I will make on my later amendment. When it comes to a personal allocation that is administered by ration book, like during the Second World War—I remember the sweet ration—it is a leap into a totally different sphere. It would be counterproductive to lose sight of the value conceptually of everyone being entitled to one tonne of carbon and going down the road of the amendment, but I am very pleased that my noble friend Lord Woolmer has enabled us all to clarify the position.
- Time
- 15:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord TurnbullCrossbench- Quote
- My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Woolmer. We are talking about something that operates like a carbon tax at consumer level, a CAT rather than a VAT. If you are going to do that you have to integrate it into the rest of the tax system. The feature of VAT is that it is a cascade tax in which you net off all the tax you paid at previous stages. With this arrangement we have no safeguard, so when you buy your litre of road fuel tax will already have been paid on it. On the subject of flights, we have passed an amendment bringing aviation within the scope of the ETS and so levying a charge on aviation. Are we then going to have something on top of that? It then has to be integrated into the social security system. I see no logic in paying my elderly mother-in-law a heating allowance and then requiring her to pay something on top of that. Conceptually, you could do all this at the consumer level, but what you cannot do is have hybrid systems. Why on earth does this need to come anywhere near this House? The Bill is for the longer term and it does not have to include everything we might possibly want to do over the next 50 years. There is plenty of time for people to develop the scheme, study it further, publish a White Paper, Green Paper or whatever, and then to come forward with legislation. I cannot understand why there needs to be anything at all which says whether you do it or not. There needs to be no mention whatever of this possibility. This possibility can arise by all sorts of other schemes in the course of the next 42 years and I think that is the way we should deal with it.
- Time
- 15:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord SwinfenConservative- Quote
- My Lords, I am in favour of the noble Lord’s amendment. It would be extremely difficult to produce a fair system of allowances. Take, for instance, two identical houses next door to each other, both with exactly the same insulation value. One is occupied by a single individual and the other is occupied by a family of two parents and, say, three children. The family with the two parents and three children could well have five times the allowance of the single person, assuming that the children get the allowance as well as adults. There is also the case of the allowances that will be required by people who are ill—chronically sick—who need additional heating and people who are disabled who need additional heating. There is also the fact that as one gets older, one feels the cold a great deal more. I am sure Members of the House will have noticed that. Elderly people will also need a greater carbon allowance. There is also the fact of travel to work and travel to buy one’s daily necessities. If you live in a town, very often your work is close at hand and you can walk there. You do not need a carbon allowance for it. You may need a shoe leather allowance, but no Government are going to bring that forward. If you live in the country a mile and a half from any public transport, as I do, you need your own vehicle to go to get food and to go to work. Even though I attended your Lordships’ House today using the train—public transport—I did need the car to get to the station and on to the public transport. It is going to be virtually impossible to produce a fair system of individual carbon allowances even if one takes no notice of airline flights divided between pleasure and business. I support the noble Lord and will support him in the Lobbies should he divide the House.
- Time
- 15:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord TeversonLiberal Democrat- Quote
- My Lords, we should remember here that the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Woolmer, is about whether personal carbon allowances should be allocated under this Bill. It is not about the question of whether personal carbon allowances are a good or bad thing. From the Liberal Democrat point of view, getting more decision-making on climate change down to individual level—whether it be through smart meters, education or other means—has to be a good thing. As individuals we must take part of the responsibility for a planetary problem. We are not saying that personal carbon allowances are Liberal Democrat policy. I was interested that the leader of the Official Opposition, I believe, raised this for public discussion in relation to aircraft and air miles—that is where it really became a public debate. I assure the House that the next Liberal Democrat Government will not introduce personal carbon allowances through this legislation. The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Woolmer, is correct. The proposal would be such a change to the way in which we operate in this country and it should not be done through this legislation. This whole area is being looked at and personal carbon allowances should be explored further. The policy should not be implemented through this Bill.
- Time
- 15:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RookerLabour
- Quote
- Lord Rooker: My Lords, what came into my vision was the inability at one general election of the Liberal Democrats to explain their policy on local income tax; the idea of them trying to explain their policy on this at an election before the Liberal Government come in almost borders on preposterousness; but there we are. I am grateful to my noble friend for returning to this matter. It is not straightforward. My view is that it would be a rash and brave Minister who sought to introduce personal carbon allowances through this Bill at any time. I can imagine the debates and difficulties of doing so through secondary legislation; that is a complete non-starter. I say that as a parliamentarian rather than as a Minister. My noble friend asked a key question: if we are not going to do this through the Bill, why do we not use specific exclusion? There is an answer to that. When we dealt with this in Committee, my noble friend Lady Morgan of Drefelin set out the Government’s position: that we do not envisage using the powers in this Bill to introduce a personal carbon trading scheme, but we are, as is known, in the process of gathering evidence better to inform us on the whole issue of personal carbon trading. One can see how complex that would be if one wanted to go down that road; all the issues raised by my noble friend and others would have to be covered. We would prefer not explicitly to rule out personal carbon trading for now—in relation to this Bill—for two main reasons. The first is that the initial pre-feasibility work has not yet reported; the long-term framework of the Bill means that personal carbon trading in future may represent a useful tool. That involves the Bill’s long-term framework. In no way do I imply that the Bill will be used to do that but that long-term framework may give birth to other bits of primary legislation; there is no question about that. The second concern with this amendment—or any other amendment that is intended to rule out personal carbon trading—is that it might inadvertently have a broader effect. Personal carbon trading is a difficult concept to pin down, as we discovered in our short debate, and doing so in legislative terms would be incredibly complicated. If we tried in the Bill explicitly to exclude it we might in addition mistakenly exclude something else that we would not want to exclude. For example, the focus on individuals in this amendment may result in a business, which happened to be trading as a sole trader, being excluded from a trading scheme that was not in fact a personal carbon trading scheme. In the proposed carbon reduction commitment, participants will be identified on the basis of their electricity consumption. If this amendment were accepted, there is a risk that a sole trader could be exempted from the carbon reduction commitment.
- Time
- 15:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Woolmer of LeedsLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, some helpful remarks have been made in this brief discussion and debate. The issues are substantial and real, whether one is for or against them in the end. They are issues that go to the heart of politics, issues of public and personal concern—and of course of media concern. I would be amazed if MPs in the House of Commons did not think very carefully about the wording of the Bill and its implications. I hope that our discussions are taken careful note of there. I do not wish to go into the points that were raised about pros and cons, although I do have a great deal of sympathy with many of them, not least that of the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, about double counting and double costs. People who were asked to pay a carbon price on top of the price of their petrol and the current tax on it would be pretty fed up with the Government of the day. These are real issues. I was delighted to hear the Liberal Democrat Front Bench saying very firmly that, regardless of the pros and cons of carbon trading allowances, the Liberal Democrats would not use the powers of the Bill, when it is enacted, for that purpose. The Minister was equally forthright from the Government Front Bench. It is a pity for the future, however distant, that the Conservative Front Bench did not seem able to give the same assurance today. I hope that that can be put right elsewhere. The Minister said, in effect, that there is a drafting problem with the amendment. He was concerned that it might be drafted in a way that excluded things not of this nature that one might ultimately want to exclude. I will look carefully at that argument and see whether it might nevertheless be possible to draft something that deals with that problem. I think it is fair to say that there is overwhelming concern on all sides of the House that this legislation should not be used for introducing personal carbon allowances. I shall take this away and consider it carefully. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Schedule 2 [Trading schemes]:
- Time
- 15:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord Davies of OldhamLabour- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 184:
- Time
- 15:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Davies of OldhamLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendments Nos. 185 and 186:
- Time
- 15:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
The Duke of MontroseConservative- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 186A:
- Time
- 15:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RookerLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I accept that this is a complicated part of the Bill. I shall stick to my notes and will deal with it in two parts. Amendments Nos. 186A to 186D would amend the powers to make trading schemes under Part 2 of Schedule 2. This part is defined broadly in paragraph 12. Schemes can encourage any activities which reduce greenhouse gas emissions or which lead to the removal of greenhouse gases from the atmosphere. If the noble Duke’s concern is that a particular type of beneficial activity could inadvertently be excluded from a trading scheme, I hope that I can offer him that reassurance. An example of such a scheme is the renewables obligation, and this scheme places obligations on electricity suppliers to supply a certain amount of their power—currently 6.7 per cent of total supply, rising to 7.9 per cent from 1 April—from renewable sources, such as wind or hydro-electricity generation.
- Time
- 15:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- The Duke of MontroseConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, I thank the Minister for that detailed and complicated answer, which will take a little studying to see how it all fits together. I was rather worried when I thought I understood the Minister to say that the regulations would not require participants to be approved, which might open the door to all sorts of things. It is certainly true that the UK Emissions Trading Scheme was a bottom-up scheme simply financed by the Government, and had nothing to do with the generation of carbon credits and allowing people to participate in a carbon credit scheme. If I am not mistaken, it was taken up by some very large interests. The joint implementation scheme I am talking about could encompass a lot of small programmes and small participants. I am reassured to learn that Part 2 allows for the generation of carbon credits if one of the schemes were to come in. I shall take this amendment away and see whether I need to bring it back at a later stage. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendments Nos. 186B to 186D not moved.] [Amendment No. 187 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.]
- Time
- 16:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RookerLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendments Nos. 188 to 190:
- Time
- 16:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RookerLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 191:
- Time
- 16:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord Taylor of HolbeachConservative- Quote
- My Lords, these amendments give new order-making powers which sound like they should be welcomed. However, I feel that we need further clarification before the full support of this side of the House can be offered. The amendments allow the Secretary of State to make regulations that would impose new financial penalties or increase the existing penalties under trading schemes. In the first instance, this seems an improvement. Indeed, fees and penalties may be necessary tools in ensuring that trading schemes are taken seriously and not simply ignored. We do not want to be in a situation where businesses think it worth while to pollute as normal because the penalties are not robust enough to make them change their ways. However, I think that such a scenario is unlikely, as cost savings and competitor and consumer pressures are all drivers for responsible businesses to take carbon emissions seriously. Notwithstanding that, I welcome the fact that these regulatory orders will be subject to the affirmative procedure. Any time the Government start discussing charging individuals or businesses, there needs to be a mechanism for thorough scrutiny. We need to ensure that any order that might create through regulation new fees for business is examined as closely as possible. Can the Minister clarify his position towards imposing penalties? In what circumstances does he see these powers being exercised? Does he feel that there will be a need initially to increase the penalties on businesses for missing targets? Essentially, what is the purpose of inserting this new power? It would be helpful for everyone to understand more clearly how the imposition of fines will work in relation to the trading schemes. Does he foresee a substantial shift in the amount of fines that will be levied? What measures will have been taken to inform the business community about the Government’s position on the future of fees and emissions? This also brings to mind the way in which business’s commitment will be calculated. If there is not a robust mechanism for measuring and reporting on emissions, how can business be asked to be held to account in a proper fashion? The National Audit Office review on UK greenhouse gas emissions, published this week, noted that the Government currently use two different methods of calculating our national emissions, one which includes the pollution from aviation, and the other, which does not. Unsurprisingly, each method produces considerably different results. The NAO report rightly criticises the Government for then using both sets of data interchangeably, even within the same document, to produce a statistic favourable to their current argument. Surely such an a la carte approach to emissions accounting is anathema to responsible business, which needs consistency and market clarity above all else. How are business emissions to be calculated? Will the Government specify the ways in which emissions must be calculated before they decide on the mechanism for levying fees? That seems essential. Will the ground continually be moving under the feet of responsible business? Before many of the orders to be made under this Bill are carried out—and it seems that most of what will happen under the Bill will have to come through orders—a firm system should be in place to address the issues in the NAO review. The issue of financial penalties is a choice example of how unclear reporting procedures will lead to a bungled application of the measures intended to curb emissions. Though it might sound a bit tangential, it is very important to this amendment that we have clear assurances on how the Government intend to handle the issues presented in the NAO report. In general terms, how do the Government plan to make regulations to reduce emissions when it is unclear what those emissions are?
- Time
- 16:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RookerLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I apologise if I overstepped the mark here, but I have simply moved two government amendments the only purpose of which is to change the procedure under the Bill, at the point when action is taken, from the negative procedure to the affirmative procedure. I have not changed any powers whatever in the Bill. Nothing has changed. That is all that has happened. In these two amendments we have simply changed Parliament’s voting powers so that Parliament can deal with these issues under the affirmative resolution. The issues which the noble Lord raised go way beyond these two amendments. If we were in Committee I would probably have a wad of notes saying how we might operate this. On the other hand I might be advised that we will not know until the situation arises. But all I have done here is to ensure—on the very issues which the noble Lord raised—that Parliament has the opportunity of a debate under the affirmative procedure when these powers are used, rather than it being slipped through under the negative procedure. I say “under the negative procedure” as though that does not matter, but the Merits of Statutory Instruments Committee will always look at these issues and draw the House’s attention to them if it thinks that we have got them wrong. All the issues that the noble Lord raised would rightly be raised in such a debate and in a vote under the affirmative procedure. I cannot go into any other detail on the issues he raised. On Question, amendment agreed to.
- Time
- 16:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RookerLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 192:
- Time
- 16:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RookerLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 193:
- Time
- 16:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Haskel)Labour- Quote
- I have to tell your Lordships that if Amendment No. 193 is agreed, I cannot call Amendment No. 194 because of pre-emption.
- Time
- 16:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Taylor of HolbeachConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, we welcome the Government’s willingness to report on the efforts they are making to mitigate the impacts of climate change; as the Minister pointed out, that is largely the effect of these amendments. The necessity of such a programme now seems finally to have been met with the equal necessity of informing Parliament about the progress of its implementation. We welcome that. There is still a curious feature in the government amendments in this group. There is no real time constraint on these reports. The government amendments require successive reports to be laid before Parliament at least every 30 months—two and a half years—after a programme has been created. For the report to be meaningful, it must come some time after the programme has been implemented. However, there is no timeframe for the programme. Is two years long enough? Surely the progress could be tracked in a shorter timeframe. Can the Minister explain how, for example, he arrived at 30 months? These amendments refer also to the section on reports on the impact of climate change. What will be the frequency of the reports? Our amendments propose yearly reports. In introducing his amendments, the Minister said that one year on data collection is not long enough for reportable differences to be noticed. But the government amendments remove the timeframe altogether. The Secretary of State also has in the Bill the power to delay the report for as long as he likes provided he publishes a statement saying why. That is unacceptable. There is a need for stronger provisions to ensure that this information is regularly and thoroughly reported on. The government amendments do not seem to go quite far enough.
- Time
- 16:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Baroness ByfordConservative- Quote
- My Lords, before the Minister responds to my noble friend, will he clarify his initial contribution? I understand that the Government clearly accept that they will come forward with something every 30 months. The Minster then spoke of other departments feeding into the system, headed up by the Cabinet review every five years. I do not quite understand how you could get those two views together, when one is on a 30-month basis and the other, if I understand the Minister correctly, is on a five-year rotation. I would be glad if the Minister could clarify that.
- Time
- 16:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness Carnegy of LourConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, following what my noble friend has just said, when the Minister talks about the input from government departments—which is obviously extremely important—does that include the devolved Administrations? As we have been saying constantly at various stages of the Bill, so many of the matters being referred to are devolved. Will those Administrations be required to feed in to these reports in the way that government departments have? Have they agreed to do that already? Will it work all right? Can the Minister clarify that as well?
- Time
- 16:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord TeversonLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- My Lords, in Committee we proposed that these reports should be annual. From that discussion, that is not the best way forward and 30 months is the right period for adaptation reports. I therefore welcome the government amendments.
- Time
- 16:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord OxburghCrossbench- Quote
- My Lords, I, too, think that 30 months would be the right reporting period, for the reasons given. Can the Minister assure the House that the Government will receive information in sufficient detail for these reports to be significant? On flooding, for example, the responsibilities for the management of drains and waterways are dispersed around the country, ranging from individual landowners, farmers and city councils to river authorities and what have you. Only one has to fail in its responsibilities for the whole system to come apart. I would be grateful for assurance and advice on that.
- Time
- 16:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RookerLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I hope that I can be brief. The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, asked why it was 30 months. Basically, that is half of five years. Annually is too frequent; the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, has accepted that. We thought that we could come up with a sufficient review mid-term. The noble Baroness, Lady Byford, asked about the Cabinet. The Cabinet Office undertakes these risk assessments already. That is part of the ongoing process of resilience and preparation for all kinds of issues, some of which it would probably be quite wrong to read out for serious reasons. I gave the examples of pandemic flu and flooding or chemical spills. These are major issues which are ongoing as part of the government operation for the public good, to be as prepared as possible for all these issues. However, that is more short-term in the sense that it is looked at annually, in the context of the five years we have worked on, the two-and-a-half year interim reports and the annual checks as a package. That is almost my last paragraph about the departmental reports. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy, that the Bill is approved by the devolved Administrations. In the departmental reports, I therefore take it that I am covering that acceptance—in the departmental reports of the Scottish Executive or the Welsh Assembly Government, or the Scottish Office in terms of Whitehall—and that this information will be covered and put in the public domain. My earlier point was that Defra’s annual report will cover all the government departments so that everything is in one area, except for where the public service agreement targets have to be looked at. It is much better for one report to cover everything. Although Defra may be leading on this, this is a government-wide Bill. My only answer to the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, is that the Government will be responding to the report on last year’s flooding by Sir Michael Pitt. There were two excellent reports and the interim report certainly went into great detail. He mentioned how all the various bodies involved in potential flooding have to be clarified and how failure by one, whether it is the Environment Agency, local authority drainage, the water companies or the internal drainage boards, throws the effect on the others. The protection of towns against flood risk causes flooding elsewhere. One has to be aware of that and prepared for it before one starts the flood risk process. Those matters will be fully covered in the Government’s response to that flooding report which will probably lead to a redivision of responsibilities in due course.
- Time
- 16:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness Carnegy of LourConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, with regard to this information being collected, the Scottish Parliament has its own departments. They will all have to collect information before the Scottish Parliament can feed into this Defra report. That is all going to take time and be quite complicated. Have the Government faced up to that? I am just trying to be practical; I am not trying to put a spoke in the wheel. But collecting this information is not just about government departments sitting around the Cabinet table. Departments in Scotland will all have to feed in. Do the Government recognise that?
- Time
- 16:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RookerLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I cannot speak in great detail on this but the reality of devolution is devolution. There is a Parliament in Scotland holding the Executive to account. This Bill will affect the devolved Administrations and the national authorities, but the Parliament in Scotland is the body to hold the Scottish Executive to account, not this House. All I have said is that this is a package Bill agreed with the devolved Administrations. The appropriate procedures as to how the departments of the Scottish Executive report to the Scottish Parliament are for them. But the information will be collected and it will have to be published at some point. On Question, amendment agreed to.
- Time
- 16:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- The Deputy Speaker (Lord Haskel)Labour
- Quote
- My Lords, I cannot call Amendment No. 194.
- Time
- 16:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord TeversonLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 194A:
- Time
- 16:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Taylor of HolbeachConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, this amendment is very similar to one that we tabled in Committee. We are thus happy to support the ideas behind it. It is absolutely essential to take account of the broad range of impacts of climate change and, indeed, the impacts of the policies which combat it. This broader sense must include the impact on the actual environment and its inhabitants; that is, the report should include the impact on society and on the health and well-being of populations—in other words, biodiversity. Climate change has far-reaching effects, and the wider our understanding, the better the proposals. Thus, appreciating the impacts on ecosystems and the environment should be a fundamental consideration in the development of policy. We want to ensure that we are preserving the very thing we are trying to protect. Our amendment that was debated in Committee differs from the Liberal Democrat amendment in that the latter has a significant omission—the economy. Including economic considerations is an important aspect if we are to appreciate the full extent of the impacts of policy. Our relationship with the environment and, indeed, that of populations all over the world, is very closely entwined with economic concerns, or perhaps more aptly, there is always an economic context which, understood and properly reported, could play an enormously beneficial role in the preservation of the environment and our fight against climate change. We cannot ignore a substantial factor that covers decision-making and we feel that this report should recognise that fact. Thus, we are immensely sympathetic to the concerns of this amendment and the arguments expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, but we believe that its scope could have been slightly wider. Will the Minister explain his approach to biodiversity? Does he feel that it should be part of the report?
- Time
- 16:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord Jay of EwelmeCrossbench- Quote
- My Lords, I support the amendment. Like the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, I feel that biodiversity is not sufficiently recognised in the Bill. It is an aspect of climate change on which there is great public interest and therefore I believe that an amendment of this kind would have widespread public support. As I say, I support the amendment.
- Time
- 16:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RookerLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, it is incredibly unfair that the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, spoke to these amendments for less than a minute, whereas my response will make me sound like an old windbag as it will be considerably longer. These are amendments of substance. I am not criticising his response, but it is a shame that it took less than a minute because it will make me look as though I am speaking for too long. I shall deal with them in—
- Time
- 16:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord TeversonLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- My Lords, I did not add to my speech as we discussed this issue thoroughly in Committee. Consequently, I was trying to be brief.
- Time
- 16:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RookerLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, my response will probably be briefer than in Committee, but it must be read out for the purposes of people outside your Lordships' House as well as the other place. On Amendment No. 194A, I reassure the House once again, as I hope I did in Committee, that the Government develop their policies and deliver their services within the overarching concept of sustainable development. As your Lordships know, we define “sustainable development” as living within environmental limits and achieving a just society by means of a sustainable economy, good governance and sound science. This is why Clause 49(2) already requires the adaptation programme to contribute to sustainable development. Amendment No. 194A would insert a reference to the environment in relation to the risk report under Clause 48. As I have said, the report will be thorough and comprehensive. It will look at the risks from climate change, and the associated vulnerabilities to these risks for the United Kingdom, including risks to the environment, the economy and society. Amendment No. 194A focuses exclusively on the environment and does not give due consideration to social or economic impacts in the risk assessment. We recognise that the natural environment provides economic and welfare benefits for human beings, as well as having an intrinsic value in itself. The natural environment will change as a result of climate change, and your Lordships can be reassured that adequate protection for the natural environment will underpin our efforts on both adaptation and mitigation. In developing the risk report in particular, we will draw on the environmental experts from the Environment Agency and Natural England, among others. We think that it is better that the Secretary of State has a duty to assess all the risks for the United Kingdom, rather than having specific risks listed. As it stands, Clause 48(1) already requires an assessment of, “the risks for the United Kingdom”, arising from climate change. That covers all potential risks, including those factors proposed in the amendments, and therefore the provision is already as wide as it could possibly be. For example, where would the risks to the built environment fit within Amendment No. 194A, and what about the wider important issues, such as the opportunities from climate change and the roles and responsibilities of organisations? If we list some factors, we leave ourselves open to having to list everything, which is not possible given the wide-ranging effects. Under Amendment No. 194A, we might end up focusing too much on some things at the expense of others. I do not know what the amendment adds to existing powers. I shall jump to Amendment No. 200. The amendment would not have any notable effect as it asks that the objectives of the Government’s adaptation programme take into account the risks identified under Clause 48. But the last line of Clause 49(1) already requires that the programme, as a whole, addresses, “the risks identified in the most recent report under section 48”. So that amendment does not stand the test to be added to the Bill. I was asked specifically about biodiversity. The Government have already established an adaptation workstream, as part of the England biodiversity strategy, to promote adaptation of relevant policies and programmes in all relevant sectors, including agriculture, forestry, water management and land use planning. The workstream is developing a set of adaptation principles, which will be adopted across all sectors where those implementing conservation management will use them to plan what actions they wish to take to help the natural world adapt to climate change. We seek win-win situations that deliver benefits for biodiversity as well as allowing for mitigation and enabling adaptation in other sectors. Where those solutions are not possible we need to minimise negative impacts on biodiversity, so we are aware of that where we cannot get the win-win solutions. On behalf of the UK Biodiversity Partnership, Defra published practical guidance on adaptation for nature conservation in a changing climate in May last year, entitled Conserving Biodiversity in a Changing Climate. That sets out six guiding principles for those who plan and deliver conservation of terrestrial biodiversity. We are aware of the issue and, we hope, are on the case. Amendment No. 201 suggests including a more detailed definition of “adaptation” in the Bill. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change currently uses the definition suggested. As I said in Committee, we have not defined “adaptation” within the Bill because we do not think it necessary to do so. The Oxford English Dictionary defines “adaptation” as, “the process of modifying a thing so as to suit new conditions”. That seems to us to be perfectly adequate. The Government also believe that the ordinary meaning of “adaptation” is clear and simple and see no need to introduce new definitions within a legislative context. Although the IPCC—I hate saying that—the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change’s definition is a recognisable definition, and we are not disputing its validity, the danger of having more than one definition of an ordinary word is that it can change the focus in ways which are not necessarily helpful. Taking into account both the threats and opportunities presented by climate change is already covered by the ordinary meaning of “adaptation”. If we include this extra definition in the Bill, how do we know that the intergovernmental panel will not update its definition of “adaptation” between now and 2050, although it beggars belief that we will not come to amend this Bill before 2050 for other reasons? I say that but I do not place great weight on that point. We are, however, prepared to offer as a political commitment that we will refer to the IPCC’s definition of adaptation within the statutory guidance under Clause 51. We intend to consult on the guidance when the UK Climate Impacts Programme scenarios are released later this year, and following that process we will have a better idea of what organisations will be using the guidance that we will be seeking and what would be most useful for them. So it would be used in the context of the guidance, but it does not make sense to transpose it into the Bill.
- Time
- 16:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness ByfordConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, the Minister referred to the adaptation report, which came out in May 2007. Presumably, much of that work was done before the climate changes that we experienced last year. I think the Minister will accept that there is enormous pressure on the balance between being able to produce enough food and having food security and the interests of biodiversity and the longer term. I wonder whether the Government have had a review of that document since then, reflecting on the changes that have taken place since last May when the report came out. Clearly, in our country, we are under huge pressures to balance what we need to do to have a vibrant economy and a society that can fulfil itself and our responsibility to the wider nature of wildlife and biodiversity.
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RookerLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I do not know, but I suspect and hope that the answer is no; otherwise we are spending loads of time in committees on Whitehall. That document was published last May, which is less than 12 months ago. It set out guiding principles for those who plan and deliver conservation of terrestrial biodiversity. It summarised the current thinking on how to reduce the impacts of climate change on biodiversity and how to adapt existing plans and projects in the light of climate change. With less than 12 months since the publication of those guiding principles, I suspect that it has not been reviewed because it has not been found necessary to do so.
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord TeversonLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. I was quite persuaded by his reply on Amendment No. 201; I was positively impressed by it. I will not move that amendment. Biodiversity and ecology are different from the social and economic issues. Clearly, they all have to be taken into consideration. There are huge lobbies and huge areas of government policy on the economy and the social infrastructure of the country for those to be taken fully into account without writing them into the legislation. I do not think that is the case for biodiversity. That is not in any way a criticism of the Government’s awareness and continued efforts in that area, but it is something that needs to be in the Bill, and it needs to be emphasised in this area. We have cut down all the other references to it and therefore it is essential that an area such as biodiversity, which is very much under the radar screen in public understanding and probably in general administrative understanding, should be there. On that basis, I should like to test the opinion of the House.
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord TeversonLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 197:
- Time
- 17:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RookerLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 198:
- Time
- 17:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Colwyn)Conservative- Quote
- My Lords, if this amendment is agreed to, I will not be able to call Amendment No. 199 owing to pre-emption. On Question, amendment agreed to. [Amendments Nos. 199 to 201 not moved.]
- Time
- 17:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RookerLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 202:
- Time
- 17:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Lea of CrondallNon-affiliated
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 203:
- Time
- 17:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord PuttnamLabour- Quote
- My Lords, I support entirely the principle of the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Lea and I certainly recognise his frustration because I feel it myself from time to time. In a speech made in Japan last week, the former Prime Minister Tony Blair said the following: “We have reached the critical moment of decision on climate change … failure to act on climate change now would be deeply and unforgivably irresponsible … the scale of what is needed is so great that the purpose of any global action is not to ameliorate or to make better our carbon dependence; it is to transform the nature of economies and societies in terms of carbon consumption and emissions”. He finished by saying, “we’re not talking of adjustment, we’re talking about a revolution”. Revolutions are not best dealt with by adopting an attitude of business as usual, and there is a sense that much of this Bill has drifted through in such an atmosphere. My noble friend makes a very good point by saying that the party that has failed to come to the table here is the Treasury. From time to time during the passage of the Bill I have felt that in discussions relating to Treasury matters, we are dealing with a small town bank manager who is looking at the bottom line from a very narrow perspective rather than as something that we all agree is urgent and of real global importance. I hope that when the Minister comes to respond, he will accept the fact that many people, not just in this Chamber but outside it as well, sincerely believe that the degree of urgency running across Government—I am not talking about individual departments because I happen to have the highest regard for Defra—and the sense of a possible revolution in the air are not as palpable as some of us would wish.
- Time
- 17:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RookerLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I shall do my best to answer my noble friend’s points. First, however, I want to respond to my noble friend Lord Puttnam on what Tony Blair said. We are doing what he said because that is what is encompassed in this Bill. It will lead to action. Moreover, I share the frustration of my noble friend that this Bill has sailed through your Lordships’ House as though the outside world does not exist. I did warn a Member of the other place whom I passed on the escalator this morning that they have no idea of what is coming down the Corridor. The Bill is incredibly complex and technical, and they will have to dig deep to get at the politics if that is what they seek to dig for—I should add that I was not talking to a member of the Labour Party. That is not to say that we do not do politics in the other place—I do not want to be misunderstood—but the fact is that when the Bill arrives in the other place, it will get reported as though it has not been through your Lordships’ House. I share my noble friend’s frustration over that, but it is a fact of life. A big success in this place is not getting something reported. We are an unelected Chamber. We are dealing with this Bill, and some issues will be raised in the other place where it is quite right to raise them. However, I think that we have done an absolutely first class job on the Bill, not by revising it because we have dealt with it in the first instance, and we have performed our role. I am convinced that, save for one or two technical adjustments in the voting Lobbies, this Bill will leave the House a much better piece of legislation than it was when it came in. My noble friend has pre-empted one of my problems with his amendment, which is that using the Bill to set up a new stakeholder forum is not the right way to address his real concerns. I shall explain that in more detail shortly. The point is that the Government are sympathetic to the underlying point. It is absolutely crucial that parts of society understand the challenge that we face and are engaged in the debate. On the other hand, the people of England let alone GB do not want a revolution. They do not want the language of revolution used because it is completely misunderstood. People want to get on with their lives, bring up their families, go to work, have their bread on the table and basically lead a peaceful life. Where the change has to occur, they have to be convinced of it. They have to be convinced of the connection between their daily existence and these planetary issues. It is our job to seek to make that connection—this Bill is a part of that. If we can make that connection we will get changes of behaviour in individuals, families and companies. They do not want it done in a revolutionary way. When the Government bring forward measures for reducing greenhouse gas emissions, it is important that full consideration is given to the economic and social impacts and their distribution over society. I am absolutely four square with that. We work hard to ensure that any new measures, taxes or otherwise, do not have a disproportionate impact. You can have some unintended consequences if you are not careful about these things, the most important being having the electorate turn on you. We need to take people along with what we are doing. Creating a carbon price through appropriate measures has a number of effects. It ensures that the environmental cost of carbon emissions is taken into account in decision-making, motivating behaviour change and energy-efficient behaviour. That part of the message is slowly getting across. While we do not intend or expect it to encourage firms and households to switch their spending towards other, less emission-intensive goods and services, our policy approach is not a simplistic attempt to choke off demand. We are not seeking to do that. It also provides a financial incentive to deploy and research new technologies which reduce carbon emissions. To tackle climate change at the lowest cost to individuals in the economy, we need to address the other market failures that prevent businesses and households responding efficiently to a carbon price, particularly in installing energy-efficient measures that will save them money as well as reduce emissions. The carbon emissions reduction target obligations on energy companies represent a doubling of our ambition on carbon savings to be achieved from the household sector through energy efficiency and will be supported by resources for a green homes service to give people the advice and support they need. My noble friend argues that we should hypothecate tax revenues from climate change-related policies to spending on climate change. This is not as simple as it might sound for a number of reasons. Hypothecation is against widely accepted principles of sound public finance. It is an inefficient means of determining the relative prioritisation of competing public expenditure programmes. It links funding for a particular programme to the revenue stream used to finance it rather than to need and increases the risk of unpredictable funding. My noble friend also made it abundantly clear that he was concerned that the Treasury is not sufficiently engaged in these important questions which, as he rightly identified, have significant implications for the economy, households and government policies and revenues. I assure him that for exactly those reasons the Treasury is closely involved. The Chancellor announced that, recognising the important economic and fiscal implications of the decisions required, the Government would set out their first carbon budgets arising from the Bill and their plans to meet them alongside the Budget of 2009. I am not the spokesman for the Treasury in your Lordships’ House but my noble friend Lord Davies is. He dealt with the issue in Committee as we are dividing up issues. The Treasury is intimately involved in all the discussions on the Bill and all the amendments the Government have brought to your Lordships’ House. None of those has been brought forward just by Defra Ministers, as noble Lords will appreciate; they have been brought forward on behalf of the Government. Indeed, some amendments have not been brought forward because of governmental discussions, even though I have been pressured to do so. Sometimes that has been because of the financial implications of the measures where, as I have said before on some issues, we want to maintain the maximum possible flexibility when we are seeking to change the behaviour of businesses and individuals. We do not want to get caught by the unintended consequences of what looks like a quick fix.
- Time
- 17:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Lea of CrondallNon-affiliated
- Quote
- My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for being so constructive in his response and to my noble friend Lord Puttnam for his remarks. One point that was made en passant was new to me: in 2009 there will be what I shall describe as the financial carbon budgets side by side with the quantitative carbon budgets. That is certainly a step forward. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Stern, that we can grow the GDP. What concerns me is not the theory that we can but that, to use a variation on the word “revolution”, there could be a revolt. People will find that they are being hit by taxes to choke off demand. We need to have more discussion at some level or other about whether the argument made by Oxford Economics, which was the economic basis of some of the review’s analysis, is true, as I am saying. The argument is that the 30 per cent reduction from trend over the next 20 years will be from choking off demand through price. That is where ballpark numbers are quite important; my guess is that taxation will be responsible for at least half of that. This is the sort of thing we need to get nearer to, and I do not think this is the climate change committee’s area of expertise. I know that hypothecation is unfashionable. When I did my economics at Cambridge many years ago I did a special paper on public finance, and I remember all the arguments that were stacked up to say, “It is a very bad thing!”. As we have seen with the congestion charge and the £50 notes going to buses or something, the issue is about winning hearts and minds. It is a question not just of economic theory but of how you get people to see that this is where their money is going and that is what it is being spent on. This is a revolution in terms of a huge change of economic structure. I have not even mentioned anything about employment structure and workers’ representation, but all those things are affected. I shall not push this further today, naturally, but something like a carbon tax forum—I do not mind what we call it—is an idea whose time has come now. It will be overdue when it is finally introduced because those people in Burton-on-Trent will not know what has hit them. Helping them understand it is a job that, at present, the Treasury is not supremely good at. I look forward to these issues being further debated in the Labour Party and all the other political parties. Before the Bill gets to the House of Commons, the Government may wish to reflect on whether they can clarify what my noble friend asserted was going to happen—what the Government will and will not do. I think he said half an hour ago on a different amendment that he thought there might be one or two amendments to the Bill in the next 50 years. I hope he has clearance in Whitehall for saying that; I would not like anything bad to happen to him. Anyway, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 50 [Programme for adaptation to climate change: Northern Ireland]:
- Time
- 17:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RookerLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 204:
- Time
- 17:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord TeversonLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 205:
- Time
- 17:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Taylor of HolbeachConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, we are grateful for the arguments presented by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. We have put our names to the amendment to highlight our desire to alleviate the confusion regarding the duties on public bodies for reporting on the adaptation to climate change. Who will this duty fall on? On what size of body will it fall? Will every school or every local authority be required to produce a report? There needs to be much greater clarity about who will be responsible for reporting. The Government is Amendment No. 209 requires a report to be laid after 12 months outlining how they intend to exercise the power to give directions to local authorities. However this is simply deferring the issue. The Minister noted in Committee that the Government should wait until the results of voluntary action by local authorities under the new local government performance framework had been collected. Will the Minister give us any indication of the success of these programmes? Does he think that voluntary action is sufficient? If the Minister intends to place a duty to report, we feel that it is very important that the scope of the type and number of institutions that will be reporting and the nature of their reports is completely clear and explained.
- Time
- 17:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord CrickhowellConservative- Quote
- My Lords, when we last addressed these issues I spoke of my experience as chairman of the National Rivers Authority for more than eight years, dealing with flood protection and flood emergencies. I immediately followed on from the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, chief executive of the Environment Agency. She spoke of her experience and her responsibilities in exactly the same field in recent months and years. I suggested to the Government that, in the light of the absolutely united views of her people, who have been responsible for those bodies over many years, they should take very seriously what was being said to them.
- Time
- 17:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord OxburghCrossbench
- Quote
- My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, has made many of the points that I would have made. It is a question of small, local bodies putting this matter sufficiently high on their priority list. This should not be seen as an imposition on those bodies, but as a help in so far as, the people allocating resources—money, time or what have you—every day have 1,000 immediate short-term pressures on them. It is difficult for them to say, “These matters, which may impact us in four, five or 10 years’ time must be worked on now”. However, if they can answer their local electorates, officials or councils and say, “The Government require us to do this”, they can do it. It is a matter of getting inside that mentality, and giving them the support they need to give this important area the priority it must have.
- Time
- 17:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord VinsonConservative- Quote
- My Lords, I sometimes wonder whether, when we talk about priorities, we remember that all these clauses mean that Britain is trying to be an exemplar to the rest of the world. I wonder whether we fail to see the wood for the green trees. The world population will increase by 3 billion people over the next 30 years. That totally overwhelms anything we could do to alleviate climate change. There is a big selling job to be done to get the British public on board as to the realities of the sort of measures we are suggesting. Although I totally accept that so many of these measures are proposed for the best possible motives, we must remember that they will not make the slightest difference to the climate change we are so worried about. There are measures we can take, but they are on a much more international stage. I agree that measures such as these will help us to show what good world citizens we are, but the point will come when the British public will get fed up with being good world citizens and look to the rest of the world to do its stuff. We should paint all our endeavours against the world situation and, as I repeat, try to see the wood for the green trees that are preventing us seeing the world situation more clearly.
- Time
- 17:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord PuttnamLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I rise to support the amendment. I have little to add to the terrific speeches of the noble Lords, Lord Crickhowell and Lord Oxburgh. However, I want to make one additional point; the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, is not here and I suspect it is something that she would have wished to say. Maybe, because of the difficulty she may have as chief executive of the Environment Agency, I can put it a little more plainly. The Government, as the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, has rightly said, will get the blame if, as and when there is a disaster. They will quite likely seek to lay the blame and responsibility on the Environment Agency. Is it reasonable or sensible, politically or morally, not to take the firm advice of the Environment Agency on this matter, and allow this amendment to stand?
- Time
- 17:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RookerLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I will in due course speak to government Amendments Nos. 209 and 229 in this group. In doing so, I hope to reassure your Lordships’ House that the Government have taken on board the debate we had in Committee. I want to reassure your Lordships that the Government have a commitment to ensure that vital services, critical infrastructure and the natural environment are protected through appropriate action to adapt to climate change. The government amendments will ensure that there is greater transparency over, and an early report to Parliament on, the authorities which are a priority for adapting to a changing climate. But they also set out a flexible and proportionate approach, now and into the future, which will ensure that we can respond to the impacts of climate change quickly, without the need for future primary legislation. They would place a new duty on the Secretary of State to lay reports before Parliament, setting out how he intends to exercise the power to give directions to reporting authorities to prepare adaptation reports under Clause 52. These reports by the Secretary of State will outline the circumstances in which such directions will be given, and those reporting authorities that are a priority. Before laying the report before Parliament, the appropriate persons or bodies will be consulted. Government Amendment No. 229 also lays out a similar arrangement for Wales. We are determined to provide this information as soon as practically possible, taking on board the points made in Committee about the timescale for government action. Amendment No. 209 therefore proposes that the first report under this new clause is laid before Parliament no later than 12 months after this Bill is enacted. In order to meet this deadline, we expect the public consultation to be held before the end of the year, so we are taking action as quickly as we possibly can. Subsequent reports will be laid no later than the next adaptation programme under Clause 49. In this way, we will create a robust mechanism for regular and ongoing reviews of those organisations that need to be acting on adaptation, as our knowledge grows. I hope that these amendments will provide sufficient confidence in the decision-making process and help provide clarity to reporting authorities as to which of them are considered to be priorities. I hope that it also reassures the House that the Government expect public bodies to assess risk and take action. There is also a small set of technical amendments in my name: Amendments Nos. 234 to 239 make some amendments to the table of definitions in Clause 79 to reflect the changes made to the Bill in Committee. Turning to Amendments Nos. 205 to 208 and 210, I have seriously considered the points made in Committee about the merits of placing a blanket duty on those bodies listed in Schedule 1 to the Civil Contingencies Act. However, we remain convinced that a power to request reports from these or other organisations, as set out in Clauses 51 to 59 and reinforced by the government amendments, is more appropriate—and, indeed, more effective—than placing a blanket duty on all organisations in the civil contingencies list, for the following key reasons. First, identifying a particular group of bodies now is too prescriptive and inflexible. Under government Amendment No. 209, we will be able to identify those bodies that are a priority, not just now but in the future, without the need for further legislation. This is because the list of reporting authorities referred to in Amendment No. 210 has been set in primary legislation and cannot be updated except through further primary legislation. In addition, specifying bodies under the Civil Contingencies Act signals that adapting to climate change is solely about emergency response. We recognise that this is an important issue, and those organisations with responsibilities under the Civil Contingencies Act will, in any case, need to be planning for risks to human welfare, the environment and security under their existing statutory duties. However, we also want to send a strong signal that climate change can impact on any public body, not just those identified as responding to national emergencies. Impacts can be gradual—heat, water stress—as well as sudden, and will impact different bodies in different ways. In some sectors there may well be opportunities as well as risks, such as some potential benefits for health and agriculture. Furthermore, the Government’s approach has the potential scope to cover up to 20 times more bodies than the civil contingencies list. For instance, organisations such as drainage boards, which may be identified as vital in responding to emergencies, are not covered by the list referred to in Amendment No. 210 but will be very important in our long-term response to climate change. This example highlights the inconsistency in the proposed approach. The noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, used a figure that I had given previously of some 25,000 authorities covered by the definition. In fact, we are now up to 28,000—
- Time
- 17:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord TeversonLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- My Lords, I do not interrupt the Minister lightly. Maybe I misunderstand our own amendment, but it does not stop the Secretary of State having that discretion in the Bill. It says that the Secretary of State “must” in terms of the priority authorities. He still has all the authority to ask others to report as well, so I do not understand that argument. The Secretary of State can ask those bodies without any change in primary legislation. All we are saying is that, for priority 1 and priority 2, he must; for the rest, he can.
- Time
- 17:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RookerLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, if I have misunderstood that, I apologise and I will come back to the noble Lord before the debate is finished. The Civil Contingencies Act covers about 1,400 bodies whereas the definition we propose includes about 28,000 statutory undertakers. These are bodies such as schools, higher and further education institutions, public bodies sponsored by government departments, the Prison Service, probation boards and inspectorates, and royal colleges. Although we will apply a risk-based approach to targeting specific organisations, we do not envisage requiring all the 28,000 bodies to report. The definition we are using has not changed but we have now conducted some further work and believe the number covered to be closer to 28,000 and not the 25,000 that the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, used. That is the reason for the figure. I am trying to update as we go along. Secondly, a blanket duty would be overly burdensome and counter to the principles of better regulation that the Government are committed to and that your Lordships’ House has supported. The Better Regulation Commission’s report on risk and climate change noted that the Government should keep administrative burdens to a minimum. We have accepted all the recommendations from the commission’s report and fully intend to adhere to them. As I have already noted, category 1 and 2 responders under the Civil Contingencies Act will already be assessing climate change risks where appropriate, so an additional duty specifically on this group will be particularly unnecessary and burdensome. That may go some way to answering the noble Lord. Thirdly, our approach of using a power would also offer more flexibility and autonomy to local and regional government. We do not seek to micromanage local services and place new unnecessary burdens on local authorities. We should let the experts on the ground who understand their areas and their risks have a chance to take responsibility for action. This approach is broadly shared by the Local Government Association, whose views we discussed in Committee. I want to take this opportunity to thank Councillor Paul Bettison, chairman of the Local Government Association Environment Board, for his letter clarifying the position of the Local Government Association and the LGA’s climate change commission on this issue. His letter states: “The LGA believes that the imposition of a specific statutory duty on councils to report on adaptation before the new performance indicators or comprehensive area assessments have been given a chance to bed in represents a disappointing step back towards centralism”. We believe that the proposals in Amendments Nos. 205 to 208 and 210 are not targeted at all the right bodies and do not take account of the changes in priorities which may take place between now and 2050. We also believe that they are burdensome and disproportionate and that they run counter to the expressed wishes of local government representatives for a more flexible approach which devolves more responsibility to them. For these reasons, we cannot accept the amendments and we think that the Government’s amendments offer a better package. I will make a couple of points in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Taylor. He asked how successful the local government performance indicator is. It started only this year so we cannot answer that yet. The success will be reviewed through the existing local government performance management process. He asked how the power would be used and who will apply it. In a way, that is the point of the strategy. It will outline who needs to act, why and when. Any decision by the Secretary of State or Welsh Ministers to require a report will be made primarily in the light of, first, the level of progress being made on adaptation by that reporting authority and, secondly, how important that organisation is to the UK’s ability to adapt. These factors will of course be underpinned by scientific knowledge, evidence from specific events—for example, the hot summer of 2003—the risk assessment in Clause 48 or the adaptation programme in Clause 49. We will not, and indeed should not, wait for the national risk assessments to be completed to use the power. There is already some evidence to say broadly which types of organisation need to be factoring in climate change to their plans. The new report required by government Amendment No. 209 will require us to set out our strategy for using the power within 12 months of Royal Assent. To do this, we will supplement our existing knowledge with a survey of our capability to deal with climate impacts and look at the mechanisms which already exist to ensure key organisations consider and manage their risks; for example, the new local authority performance indicator on adaptation to ensure local authorities are taking action, or a duty on energy suppliers to ensure the continuity of supply. The power is designed to mesh with, and not duplicate, other activities to mainstream adaptation into ongoing work; for example, the new local government performance framework and the water strategy, Future Water, which was published in February. In future, the regular Clause 48 risk assessment will give us a more informed understanding of the risk faced and who needs to act. I apologise to noble Lords for the length of the reply. I hope I am not asked to read out all the other bodies that might be affected. One can look them up. By rule of thumb, England alone probably has 20,000 primary schools and 4,000 secondary schools but they do not all necessarily have to report. That is why the number of bodies is much greater than the number covered by the Civil Contingencies Act. I hope I have satisfied noble Lords. I have not received any further and better particulars to answer the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, but I may have answered him in the further points I came to in my speech.
- Time
- 18:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord TeversonLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. I still think our amendment has the best of both worlds in that it allows for organisations to be specifically targeted by the Secretary of State but demands, in terms of long-term national security, that certain organisations have a duty to bring plans. From that point of view, this amendment is far superior to the Government’s amendment. I recognise that the Government have a timescale for the process. I should be delighted if the Minister could withdraw his amendment and think about it again but I am sure that will not happen. I find it very difficult to know where to go from here. In terms of the devolution of power, even as a Liberal Democrat I think there are certain areas where the Government have responsibilities. The drawing up of adaptation plans will be naturally devolved. They will be local plans or plans by individual national bodies under categories 1 and 2. I am sorry I cannot convince the Minister. There is a real issue here which I would certainly wish to think about further. I say to the Minister that the solution he has at the moment is genuinely not the best one. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendments Nos. 206 to 208 not moved.]
- Time
- 18:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RookerLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 209:
- Time
- 18:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Davies of OldhamLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 211:
- Time
- 18:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- The Duke of MontroseConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, having looked at this group, there is nothing to which we wish to object. It seems to put all the meanings in one place for easier reference, which is always helpful. On Question, amendment agreed to.
- Time
- 18:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RookerLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 212:
- Time
- 18:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord GreavesLiberal Democrat- Quote
- My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments Nos. 213A to 213C, which amend government Amendments Nos. 213 and 217A. I think that I thank the Minister for systematically rubbishing my amendments before I got to speak to them. At least I know where he is coming from and what he is going to say.
- Time
- 18:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RookerLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, as my noble friend Lord Davies suggested, and I think he is right, we are uncomfortable doing it this way round. When there is another such group, and there is at least one more, I will not refer to the opposition amendments when moving the government amendment but deal with them in the wind-up. I apologise. I am uncomfortable with this procedure but it is the one we were working with.
- Time
- 18:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord GreavesLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- My Lords, I was thanking the Minister for doing it. I also thank him for being uncomfortable. And the pronunciation—if I can help him—is something like Ludwigshafen. The Minister raised two issues, the first of which was side waste. He said a later amendment is planned to clarify the position in various legislation and to put all the provisions in one place. Local authorities will welcome that, because there is a lot of argument about side waste in recycling schemes. Secondly, he suggested that the Government will come forward at some stage with an amendment in relation to certain large retailers—an interesting phrase—and single-use bags. We would very much welcome that. We will be interested to see what that amendment says whenever and wherever it appears. We welcome the Government taking the issue seriously. We raised it in Committee on this Bill. I also welcome government Amendment No. 213—which, as the Minister said, is generally the substantive amendment in this group—not least because it makes the whole presentation of the proposals much clearer and it shortens the Bill, something which is unusual for a government amendment but is to be welcomed. The amendment sets out much more clearly for anyone interested the different options for the pilots and for looking at waste reduction schemes: based on the weight of residual waste; volume—the big bins or the little bins; and type of receptacle—bins, sacks or anything else that people might invent. The question of frequency is much clearer here than it was in the original wording. The reference to types of receptacle and identification of receptacles is also much clearer. Although Amendment No. 213 does not change in any way the Government’s intentions towards the options, it is a good amendment. I understand this provision much better than the previous, rather convoluted one. Amendment No. 213A, which is in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Teverson, goes back to the issue we discussed in Committee. We gave all these charging provisions and systems a pretty good scrubbing down in Committee. The fact that we did so means that at least some of us are not revisiting those issues here. The issues will undoubtedly be considered again in the House of Commons, and we have very much helped them to do so. However, one issue that was not dealt with is advanced payments and payments on account and in instalments. Both Liberal Democrat Members and Conservative Members tabled amendments in Committee on the issue, and I remember some very useful contributions by the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, on the subject. We were not given proper answers in Committee, and I am not sure that the Minister has given us proper answers in advance today.
- Time
- 18:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- The Duke of MontroseConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, I cannot help seeing a very slight element of irony in that, as we pat ourselves on the back for being at the head of climate change, we keep referring to how Germany is doing it better. I had an easier job talking about North Rhine-Westphalia; whereas the Minister was landed with something rather dreadful to pronounce, which may have been Ludwigshafen. Amendment No. 213 is the main amendment in this group, the remainder being consequential. We feel that the revised wording makes clearer what the Government intend. In particular, it allows receptacles—for example sacks, plastic or otherwise—to be identified by tags for which a charge would be made. One has visions of a new level of neighbourliness from A, who has five tags and needs only four, and B who is running one short and borrows a tag. Or there may be a back-door trade set up in which someone will try to put a price on it. The only remaining concern is that I would be glad for the Minister’s confirmation that no householder will be forced to pay for a service that he or she does not require. There surely cannot be many, but I am told that there are people who live during the week in rented accommodation, doing no more than sleeping and showering there, and removing their rubbish with their laundry on a Friday morning. This avoids their having to put the rubbish out, or move a wheelie bin onto the pavement. The consequential amendments do not affect the requirement for revenue neutrality. I well remember the Minister’s robust defence of this provision. I should be grateful, however, if he would respond to a further probe on the Government’s intentions in this area. We understand that the costs of running a waste reduction scheme will be met from the savings that the council will accrue through providing materials for recycling. Does this mean that when the Secretary of State considers a scheme for piloting he will expect to see proof of a contract between the piloting authority and the waste reclamation company that it proposes to use? Furthermore, will any rollout be dependent on there being sufficient reclamation capacity of the kind needed for the scheme in question to function with sufficient financial payback to cover the administration costs? The phrase “a good recycling service” does not seem to us necessarily to cover this point.
- Time
- 18:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness ByfordConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, I welcome the Government’s commitment to look at retail plastic bags, because they deface our countryside in many ways. I say that with a slight smile because I suspect that most of us who acquire them new from the retailer go on to use them again. The bags are therefore used more than once, although they come from their original source only once. I do not mean this in a childish way, but that needs a bit of thought. I also wonder what research has been done on producing a receptacle—apart from a paper one—which is biodegradable. Presumably, research is ongoing. If the Minister has information on that, it would be helpful if it was shared with us today. As regards the collections in these trial areas, most of us will have a regular amount of rubbish that goes each week to be recycled and is put in its proper bags. But from time to time, when one has an invasion of family or friends, the weekly amount may well be doubled. I wonder, in the constraints of what is being proposed, how that will be dealt with as well. We do not want to jeopardise people who are doing their best, but at certain times of year they may well have more than they would otherwise have. The Minister mentioned Germany, which is doing better. In many ways, that is not surprising, because, as the Minister knows, Germany already has biodigesters that are in use. I wondered whether the Government have done any research on how much waste is wasted and is not used to produce electricity or energy. Have the Government thought what might possibly be gained from particular schemes? Have local authorities been asked how much of their original waste could be used in a constructive way? Might they, as a result of that, look at having biodigesters within their own authority? On the question of unpaid moneys, has any figure been thought about or anticipated? Is any in the public domain? In other words, are the councils having to take more than they expected? That would give us an idea how much extra would be involved. I am sorry, I am not explaining myself very well. Let me try again. At the moment, the rubbish that a person puts out goes into the normal system which the councils run. In these schemes, the councils want to impose a limit so that the person who uses more than they should will be charged extra. Has the additional amount—that in addition to what they normally would have in just one wheelie-bin— been anticipated? I am sorry to be so specific, but it would be helpful to know. I welcome the Government’s amendment because I think it does help us to identify future projects. I wish them well. I think there was one other thing that the Minister mentioned—it was to come before us but will now be put to the Commons later. Could he perhaps clarify that to me? The point on retail and plastic bags I accepted, but the other one I slightly missed.
- Time
- 18:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness Carnegy of LourConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, your Lordships certainly are very good when it comes to rubbish. It is a great subject for us all and we seem to be very interested in discussing it. It is most important. Looking at the average supermarket trolley—this week I had a good look at my own and at some others—one sees that it contains far more rubbish in plastic and paper wrapping than the plastic bags into which that is put as one goes away. A very good move would be to look carefully at packaging and see whether something can be done, perhaps through the standards authority, to reduce it. I am not sure whether this was said in Committee, but it would be far more useful than limiting plastic bags—although plastic bags are a very good advertisement for the cause and I entirely support it. The packaging in a full supermarket trolley is enormous. The rubbish that one puts into the plastic bag, after one has used the things one has bought—the plastic bag that it originally came in—is far more than the plastic bag itself. I think there are not many people who operate their kitchen who would disagree with that.
- Time
- 18:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RookerLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, asked me about an issue I raised in my speech. We proposed to bring forward an amendment in the Commons. I know it is in the Q & A and I cannot put my finger on it. Now I have lost the page in my notes and I do apologise. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, asked me about the people charged. What we want is for the local authorities to have the opportunity if they wish—and it is up to them—to merge the scheme under the pilots with the council tax collection. As he said, we are not talking about large sums of money here. I think we estimated £30, £40 or £50, at the most, either as a rebate or as a charge. Linking it with the council tax, if they have a system for that, should actually be efficient for everybody, so I do not see that as the problem. I have made notes on everyone’s speech and I cannot find them. I do apologise. From that point of view, we are not saying how local authorities should actually deal with the rebate. I would like to think of the rebate first and the charge second, and try to make it revenue neutral anyway. It is up to them how they do it. We do not know which local authorities they are going to be. As we said in Committee, we do not know which parts of which local authorities they are going to be. We have got to leave it to the local authorities. That is not saying we are not interested; we sure are interested. In this respect—I understand why the noble Lord raises it—we have to trust local government. We may be able to elucidate on this in the other place. I realise that revenue neutrality is controversial. The noble Lord asked me in what circumstances we would abolish it. We think that revenue-neutral schemes are the right way forward and the work to date supports the view. But these are pilots and that is the whole point about piloting. This is a classic case from schools of government. If you are going to do something national, roll it out a bit at a time. Whatever you do, if it is major, pilot it first to see whether it works. This is normally what we have done. The old social security department and the DWP used pilots to operate. We cannot therefore give the answers; to a large extent, they depend on how the pilots go. We want to learn the lessons, including, I suppose—I do not know—some negative lessons. We should look at all the good criteria; a good recycling service is crucial. As the noble Baroness said, there must be provisions dealing with fly-tipping. We will look again at all those issues if the evidence points that way. We must learn lessons. We do not have other motives; we simply do not know. This is a question of trying it out with local government as a partner. We do not have all the answers. The noble Baroness rightly said that I had referred to Germany on two occasions. I have warned inside Defra that we should not talk about giving a lead, particularly on anaerobic digestion. Farmers in this country—particularly farmers from England who have seen what has been going on in Germany for years—would laugh at me if I said to them that we are giving a lead; I wrote this in a note a couple of days ago. We are way behind. It is no good saying that we are a leader; we are not. People will not believe us if we tell porkies like that. Virtually every scheme that it is possible to pilot in this area is operating somewhere in the world. We made that clear in the original consultation. We are not inventing the wheel. We are a small island and we are running out of landfill, and landfill is bad anyway. We must therefore make reductions and encourage people to recycle more. We can give a lead on many things but on that we are taking evidence from other areas. The evidence from some of the examples I gave shows that this can work; there have been big reductions in what goes into landfill and there are huge advantages in terms of what is recycled. The noble Lord asked about instalments; I have answered that: it is up to the local authority. We tested that in the pilots. One local authority may want to take the charges one way and another may want to go another way; that is the whole point of the pilots. The noble Lord said that if awards or penalties were made in advance, there would be no behavioural incentive, but there is—it is in the next round. The process operates on an annual basis and the pilots, if I recall correctly, can run for up to three years. Local authorities will have the data on the levels of waste produced; they will relate to bins and be weight-based or volume-based. That can be built into the next round. People’s behaviour would be affected. I have specifically not used the P-word. I have referred to single-use carrier bags, and I am sticking to that because that is what I have been instructed to do. This will be dealt with in the other place. Somewhere in my speech there is something about a specific amendment that we intend to move in the Commons; I shall find it before the evening is over. When I discussed it earlier, I said that I thought it would be introduced not at Third Reading but in the Commons. In about 50 pages of Q and A, I saw a specific reference to it being introduced in the Commons. The noble Baroness asked me about that. I am a bit surprised that I have not had a copy of the page whizzed along to me. I will try to find it myself.
- Time
- 18:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord GreavesLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- My Lords, does the Minister not understand that there is a great deal of cynicism and scepticism out there about this being intended as a money-raising and tax-raising process? Simply taking out of the Bill the ability to make it such would make it much easier for the Government to sell this scheme to the cynics and the sceptics. While I am on my feet, I forgot to ask the Minister a question; I hope that he will be kind and let me ask it now. Is it fair that someone who is moving into a house, as a new tenant or new occupier, should be penalised for the behaviour of the people who were in the house previously? Surely that is not fair; if there is a charge or penalty, that should surely go with the people who lived there previously.
- Time
- 18:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RookerLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, my experience—I have not moved that often—is that local authorities and the utilities providers are meticulous about, for example, reading the meter; your liabilities start on the day you move. The people who have moved out are under a legal obligation about all that they need to do—to leave the place clean and to have got rid of all the rubbish; that is also in the sales contract. There is not an issue there. Of course it would be unfair if people were saddled with the liabilities of others but that is dealt with in the moving process—in the tenancy agreement or the lease and deeds—and the normal rules for utilities and local government apply. You pay council tax and the rubbish tax from the day that you go in; you do not pay anybody else’s council tax or rubbish tax. On Question, amendment agreed to.
- Time
- 18:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RookerLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 213:
- Time
- 18:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RookerLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendments Nos. 214 to 217:
- Time
- 18:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RookerLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 218:
- Time
- 18:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RookerLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 219:
- Time
- 18:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord GreavesLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- had given notice of his intention to move, as an amendment to Amendment No. 219, Amendment No. 219A.
- Time
- 19:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- The Duke of MontroseConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, from this Dispatch Box, we welcome the amendment. It puts in place a mechanism that several noble Lords considered would be needed. Like the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, I wonder whether the Minister can explain the procedure by which a ruling from the appeals panel would turn up in the county court. Is it not possible for the appeals panel to order that charges be recovered, and for that to be treated as though it came from the county court?
- Time
- 19:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RookerLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I will explain how we envisage an appeals body working. There are already many appeals bodies—the best example is the valuation tribunal, which considers council tax appeals. If residents consider that they are not liable to pay council tax, or disagree with the amount they are being billed, they can appeal first to a valuation tribunal. Following this, they generally have four weeks to appeal to the High Court in relation to a valuation tribunal’s decision. In setting up an appeals body, we would look to draw on these experiences, as well as the lessons learnt specifically from the pilots. Any regulations would be subject to wide consultation. We would otherwise ensure that they were human rights-compliant. In other words, with five pilots, we could have five different financial collection appeal systems. That is the point of doing the pilots and we need to learn the lessons from them. The enforcement options would be the same as for a civil debt and would have broadly similar sanctions to those for non-payment of council tax—but without the sanction of imprisonment. That gives the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, no opportunity to raise another one. He has already had the bailiffs knocking down the door to get the money for the waste. No one is going to prison. Nor would we envisage bankruptcy or charges on property as a sanction for non-payment of the waste charge alone. Before these hares start running, we can make it absolutely clear—no imprisonment, no bankruptcy and no charges on property for non-payment of the waste charge alone. On Question, amendment agreed to.
- Time
- 19:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RookerLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 220:
- Time
- 19:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Davies of OldhamLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 221:
- Time
- 19:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- The Duke of MontroseConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, I see that we have three amendments that are substantial in length if not in content. From this Dispatch Box, we welcome the principle of these amendments, but we would be glad of the Minister’s response to a number of questions. Schedule 5 applies both to pilots and to rollout. It does not, however, distinguish between them. When sub-paragraph (3) of Amendment No. 221 refers to the first order to be made, does that mean the first order for the first pilot, the first order for the first pilot and then for the first rollout or the first order for each scheme, pilot or rollout, for each participating waste collection authority? If it means the first order for the first pilot, is there an implication that the Secretary of State, in deciding to give permission for a pilot, will already have in mind the approximate charging levels that he will approve? Will it also mean that he anticipates no difference across the country in the levels that will be charged by different authorities in different circumstances?
- Time
- 19:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord GreavesLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- My Lords, I thank the Government for responding to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, for tabling these amendments and, indeed, for responding to the discussions in Committee on these same matters. This is one area in which this House might have had something to say had the Government not tabled their amendments, but they have done so entirely sensibly and, I am sure, entirely on the balance of the arguments. They are to be congratulated on that. The noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, touched on one of the difficulties that we have had with Schedule 5 in that it covers both the pilots and the rollout. The Government’s argument is that because there will have been substantial scrutiny of the schedule as part of the discussions on the Bill, that will suffice for any national rollout. Some of us have difficulties with that, as there is all the difference in the world between setting up what can happen in various pilots and deciding which of those schemes will be adopted or totally amended in the rollouts. The scrutiny is not terribly satisfactory, which is why we spent quite a lot of time in Committee probing how the decisions about the results of the pilots and the way in which the schemes will be rolled out nationally will be taken. This and subsequent government amendments improve this a little, but there are still problems, and there really must be a way in which Parliament can look at this properly after the pilots have taken place. However, this part of the Bill is a great deal better now than it was, and on that basis I am happy to support the amendments on behalf of the Liberal Democrats.
- Time
- 19:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Davies of OldhamLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords who have spoken in this short debate. I am rather more grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, who did not ask me a specific question, as the noble Lord, the Earl of Montrose, did. As the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, generously indicated, we sought through the amendments to follow the clear indications and recommendations of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee on how we should improve the Bill. We all recognise that consideration of the pilots and the rollouts is important. The noble Lord, the Duke of Montrose, asked quite a specific question about the cap on the charge to be made during the pilots or the rollouts. The first order, whether made during the piloting or after rollout, will contain this provision. It is up to local authorities to set the level of the charge and not for the Secretary of State to have a particular charge in mind. There is no reason why the charge would be the same across the country. In fact, I think we will recognise that there will be differences among local authorities in this. It goes without saying that we hope those differences will be within an acceptable range, otherwise the local authorities are likely to find that residents will be outraged if they discover that some local authorities are charging enormously greater sums than others. Nevertheless, variations will occur, as they do in the services that local authorities currently offer. Why is not the decision to roll out powers to all local authorities in England subject to the affirmative procedure? The Bill requires us to report finally on at least one of the pilots before deciding to roll out powers—the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. In reality, it is likely that we will need to report on most, if not all, of the pilots before having enough evidence to decide on rollouts. We therefore accept the point emphasised by the noble Lord, the Duke of Montrose, that this needs to be subject to careful scrutiny. We also hope to have a further debate in Parliament prior to any decision to roll out. This will be in addition to the careful scrutiny that the waste provisions will receive—indeed, have already received—as part of the Bill, and as they undoubtedly will receive at the other end.
- Time
- 19:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord GreavesLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- My Lords, this will save me asking the question later. When the Government say, as they do in various documents, that they expect to have a debate in Parliament, can they guarantee that that will include a debate in this House?
- Time
- 19:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Davies of OldhamLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I do not have a note on the actual process that we will follow, so I cannot give that guarantee. I will have to write to the noble Lord and send the same letter to other noble Lords who are greatly interested in this area. I have no decision on this. The House will recognise that the Bill started in this House, but that we must have due regard to the position on all matters in the Bill that will be adopted in the other place perhaps with even greater emphasis on local authorities, given the symbiotic relationships between any effective and hard-working Member of Parliament and his or her local authority. I do not want the noble Lord to press me too far on this, but we accept that we will certainly need further consideration in Parliament beyond consideration of the Bill itself. I at least give that undertaking.
- Time
- 19:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- The Duke of MontroseConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, I sympathise with Minister over the problems that arise over titles. Even last night, when I sat at the long table, the waitress came up behind me and said, “Now what would you like to have this evening, my Lady?”. I have learnt to respond to a great many titles in this place. I have the title of Lord, and I have the title of Earl, but I am afraid that the official title that I go by here is Duke.
- Time
- 19:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Davies of OldhamLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I must apologise to the noble Duke. The note from the Box was as ever entirely accurate in that respect. The fault was entirely mine. On Question, amendment agreed to.
- Time
- 19:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Davies of OldhamLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendments Nos. 222 and 223:
- Time
- 19:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord GreavesLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 223A:
- Time
- 19:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- The Duke of MontroseConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, I can only add from this Dispatch Box my confusion as to why the number of pilots has been capped and capped at only five. Given the enormous scope of this Bill, we are looking at issues that some people have said will require cutbacks similar to those in Britain during the Second World War. Why is the entire waste section limited to five schemes? Does the Minister think that five schemes are sufficient to test adequately all available alternatives?
- Time
- 19:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord RookerLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, why do you want to know? It is five. Why do you want to know where that number came from? I have nothing else to say. The full intellectual might of the Cabinet—of the Government—has arrived at a decision of five. If the House of Commons, where the elected people’s representatives are, want another figure, it can change it: but the number is five.
- Time
- 19:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord GreavesLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- My Lords, why do I want to know? We want to know why all the legislation that comes to this House is as it is. We assume that there is a sensible, rational reason behind it. In order to pass legislation, we should know what that reason is. The Minister referred to the “full intellectual might” of pretty well everyone in the country—I thought that he was going to list the chancellor of Oxford University and goodness knows who else. People say that irony has gone out of fashion. I congratulate the Minister on his irony, which is better than mine. I think that his will come forward in Hansard better than mine normally does. If this Bill had not originated in this House, I think that we would have wanted to divide the House on this. It is silly and illogical, but it is so silly and illogical that the House of Commons perhaps will be able to do something with it. If someone of the Minister’s calibre—he is rightly thought to be one of the best Ministers in this House—
- Time
- 19:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord GreavesLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- My Lords, if he can come up with this answer, the Government have to think again. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
- Time
- 19:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Davies of OldhamLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I beg to move that further consideration on Report be now adjourned. In moving the Motion, I suggest that Report stage begins again not before 8.30 pm. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
- Time
- 19:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗