Report stage in the Lords
- Speaker
Lord Bassam of BrightonLabour- Quote
- My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now further considered on Report. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to. Clause 34 [Timing]:
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord JuddLabour- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 32:
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord AveburyLiberal Democrat- Quote
- My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Judd, is absolutely right to raise this matter yet again because there is evidence coming to light that the foreign prisoners who are being held in detention following the expiry of their sentences are clogging up the system and creating at least the possibility of serious unrest in detention centres. This matter was referred to in the Sunday Telegraph a couple of days ago under the headline “Asylum crisis getting worse, say officials”. This is the opinion not of the Opposition or of Back-Benchers such as the noble Lord, Lord Judd, who is always assiduous in raising any matters to do with immigration and detention, but comes from within the department itself, as I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, is aware. In one paragraph, the writer of the article states: “Since last year’s crisis, when it emerged that foreign prisoners had been released without being considered for deportation, many detention places have been occupied by former prisoners, adding to the unrest in the centres”. Can the Minister tell the House the proportion of foreign prisoners to other kinds of detainees, and whether that has increased since the crisis of last year as the Sunday Telegraph alleges? It is important that we have these figures and know whether the Government have any plans for dealing with the matter. As we have said before—we will come on to the issue again, no doubt—there is great anxiety about the numbers of former criminals kept in some kind of detention well after the expiry of the sentence awarded by the court. If, as the article states, one of the consequences of that is to clog up the places needed for the effective administration of the ordinary asylum system, then your Lordships should know about it before it is too late to deal with the matter in the Bill.
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord Plant of HighfieldLabour- Quote
- My Lords, my name is on the amendment and I should like to say a word or two in support of it. I agree with the points made by my noble friend Lord Judd. I, too, am a member of the JCHR and support the position of that committee on this issue. There are two or three other reasons that I would like to mention briefly. First, I am not in favour of extending the discretionary powers of Secretaries of State when they can perfectly easily be constrained, as they should be in this case. Secondly, the Home Office is not known for its expedition in dealing with these types of cases, and some kind of statutory requirement to move quickly in the terms set out in our amendment is a good incentive from within the administration of these processes. Thirdly, from the point of view of the person to be deported, surely it must be better if you are in that position to have some sense of the time limit on the kind of limbo that you are in, so that you can at least make some adjustment to the new situation that you are going to face. For those additional reasons, as well as the ones spelt out with great power by my noble friend Lord Judd—I agree also with the noble Lord, Lord Avebury—I fully support the amendment.
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord HyltonCrossbench- Quote
- My Lords, I support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Judd, the purpose of which is to prevent injustices to those who have already served their full sentence, and to avoid prisons and detention centres being clogged up by these people while the Secretary of State considers their cases and goes through the other motions connected with deportation. I can see, however, that the Government may object to the last line of the amendment, which says, “and in any event within three months of that date”. Their objection may be founded on the fact that a minority of such prisoners will have appeals still pending against either conviction or sentence, but surely the way to deal with that situation is to provide that those prisoners shall be released unless there is an appeal of the kind I have described. Even then it should be possible for most of them to be granted bail.
- Time
- 15:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Baroness HanhamConservative- Quote
- My Lords, my noble friend Lady Anelay supported this amendment in Committee and I am glad to continue to do so. One has to ask the Minister what possible reason there can be for delay. There is clearly nothing automatic about the Government’s proposals for automatic deportation in this situation. In Committee the Minister was in agreement on principle, but had objections that the amendment would create a loophole where criminals would not be able to leave as soon as possible due to outstanding asylum claims and so would escape the provisions. He might like to comment on that again today, as well as on the other matters that have been raised by noble Lords relating to the speed at which deportation seems not to happen.
- Time
- 15:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Bassam of BrightonLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, for raising the issue again. He will be somewhat disappointed at my response, but I feel I ought to go through some of our reasoning behind this. As I did in Committee, I sympathise with some of the intent behind the amendment. In essence the amendment would take away the Secretary of State’s discretion to make a deportation order at the time of her choosing; instead, she would be obliged to make it within three months of the foreign national’s prison sentence commencing. It has to be understood that this would create some straitjacketing difficulties, though I understand the intention behind the amendment. There are many reasons why the Government should make a decision on deportation at the earliest point legally and practically possible, such as fairness to the individual and the need to minimise the use of the prison and detention estates, as well as the need to ensure that foreign criminals who qualify are deported as quickly as possible. However, making a deportation order just three months into every offender’s sentence would be inappropriate in practice. If the offender was to be sentenced for a lengthy period of imprisonment, their circumstances could change significantly between the start and the end of the sentence. Where a foreign criminal has been sentenced to a long period of imprisonment, it is highly likely that their personal circumstances—or even the political situation in that prisoner’s home country—could change over time. Where that is the case, the Government could find themselves in a position where they have made a deportation order only to have to withdraw it at a later date. That practical reason militates against some of the logic of the amendment. As a matter of routine, any deportation decision would have to be reviewed at the end of the offender’s sentence to ensure that it remained compatible with our international obligations. That places another constraint on our flexibility. As that review would need to take full account of personal circumstances many years on from the original decision, it would be a completely new decision, rendering the original decision completely irrelevant. For those reasons, although the amendment seems on the face of it to be practical and to apply pressure on authorities to consider how best to deal with the situation, it presents operational difficulties. I understand the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Plant. The pressure point exists and it is understood. However, flexibility is important. Some other questions were asked during this short debate. The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, said that it must be possible for foreign national prisoners to be granted bail. Bail may be granted in appropriate cases where foreign national prisoners are not to be removed imminently, and where there are no risks to the public and no risk that the person would abscond. In those circumstances, bail would make a lot of sense, because it would mean less pressure on the detention estate. The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, asked what proportion of detainees is made up of foreign prisoners. The answer is approximately 50 per cent across the detention estate. There has been an increase because it is necessary to move former prisoners into immigration detention to ensure that prison places are not taken up while proper consideration is given to whether to deport foreign national prisoners in the public interest. I think that I have answered most of the points that have been raised, but if I have missed some, I have no doubt that noble Lords will press me further on them. We need flexibility; practical problems militate against our adopting the understandable approach proposed by the amendment. For those reasons, we cannot find agreement with it.
- Time
- 15:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord JuddLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his observations. I thank also noble Lords in all parts of the House who have contributed to this short but important debate. I ask my noble friend to reflect carefully on what he said and, when he lies in bed tonight, thinking about the wisdom that he shared with the House, to consider whether he really produced a convincing argument to refute the proposal that, on the one hand, liberty is being thwarted and, on the other, ammunition is being given to extremists, who will say, “There you are. Society claims to be based on human rights and all the rest, and see what they do”. I see my noble friend screw up his face.
- Time
- 15:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Bassam of BrightonLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I was simply thinking of the question and responding to the noble Lord.
- Time
- 15:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord JuddLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, then my noble friend has my full sympathy. As I have said on previous amendments, we are living in volatile times. Disaffection leads to alienation; alienation can be exploited. It is an accumulation of small experiences that are very real for the people and families involved which leads to the spread of a feeling of being aggrieved. It is in the smaller things that we really could do something to make sure that things are happening as they should and make a substantial contribution, in aggregate, to the battle for hearts and minds. I am always very despondent about the negation of human rights, for instance, but I find that as I deal with these issues I personally become more frustrated by what I see as the rule of bureaucratic counter-productivity—of inertia and refusing to act—which is in danger of accentuating the problems that we confront. I am very disappointed that the Government have not moved on this so far, not least because of what my noble friend so encouragingly said in Grand Committee. However, I never give up my hope that not least my noble friend, and others who have sense, will prevail—and, as the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, suggested, there is an argument going on within the Home Office itself. In the hope that the voices of sanity will prevail in the Home Office at the right time, at this juncture I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 36 [Detention]:
- Time
- 15:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord AveburyLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 33:
- Time
- 15:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord HyltonCrossbench
- Quote
- My Lords, earlier on Report, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Winchester reminded us that a high proportion of former foreign criminals are being held in detention and removal centres. The result is that people with convictions have been mixed in with people who are completely innocent of any crime. This has caused serious problems for the staff of the centres, and has generated considerable fears among the innocent detainees. The Home Office appears to have generally disregarded the advice that was offered to concentrate the former criminals in one or two particular centres, which might have avoided quite a lot of problems. Therefore, I am asking the Minister to tell us what progress has been made on the subject since last summer. I know—because I read it—that there is a letter from a Minister in the Library, which sets out some positive news. Can the Minister go a little further and tell us what impact the very large increase of staff devoted to the question of who should be detained, whether they are due for deportation and related subjects is having on the situation?
- Time
- 15:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Bassam of BrightonLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, before I respond to the amendment, since the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, had the great courtesy to advise me in advance of his point about the points-based appeal system, I ought to respond to that. It was a very helpful question, which enables me to provide further elucidation. A 28-day grace period will be included in the Immigration Rules as part of the tier 1 process in March 2008. I am sure that the noble Lord will welcome that. This will allow those who send their applications within 28 days of their leave expiring to continue with their application. That is a very helpful approach on our part, which will probably be welcomed, not least by immigration law practitioners. On the amendment, the principal purpose of automatic deportation is to protect the United Kingdom public from harm by deporting foreign criminals. Our view is that the amendment would undermine that aim. I am not saying that that is the purpose behind the amendment, but it would have that effect. It would remove the Secretary of State’s power to detain foreign criminals while she considers whether automatic deportation applies and pending the making of a deportation order under that power. I fully realise that noble Lords feel queasy about what they view as an open-ended power to detain. Who would not? It is an understandable reaction, and I am no different in that regard. I can provide some reassurance that the provision is not designed to allow the Secretary of State to detain people indefinitely; that is not its objective. Deportation action will, whenever possible, be commenced while the criminal sentence is being served. In those circumstances, it will not be necessary to use these powers. My guess is that that will cover the majority of circumstances. However, there will be cases where, for example, a person who appears to meet the criteria for automatic deportation is eligible for immediate release by the sentencing court because he has already served the sentence while on remand. That happens from time to time. In such circumstances, it is vital to have a power to detain while the Secretary of State considers whether automatic deportation applies. I am sure that noble Lords will understand why that might be the case. This will help to remove the risk of the offender absconding, thereby affording an extra level of public protection from potential harm. I am sure that we can imagine the sorts of cases where that would be especially important. Noble Lords might also note that Clause 36 applies the existing provisions on bail, arrest and restriction orders to automatic deportation cases. As such, it will be open to foreign nationals detained under these powers to apply for bail should they wish to. The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, was, as ever, assiduous in asking about how other matters impact upon this issue. He asked whether electronic monitoring was an option for those detained under Clause 36. Yes, that is possible and officials will exercise these powers on behalf of the Secretary of State; existing guidance will be updated. The noble Lord asked whether Clause 36 was compliant with Article 5 of the ECHR. We are satisfied that Clause 36 is compliant with Article 5. A decision on whether a person may be liable to automatic deportation is action taken for the purposes of deportation and, therefore, is within the remit of Article 5. The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, returned to the impact of foreign national prisoners on the deportation estate and asked about the impact of bringing in large numbers of staff to decide who should be deported and who should be detained. The Border and Immigration Agency’s Criminal Casework Directorate is now considering most foreign national prisoner cases 10 months from the end of their sentences. The Border and Immigration Agency expects to deport some 4,000 foreign national prisoners in 2007 as a result of the increase in staff and improved caseworking. Detention is based on a risk assessment and, as I have said on a number of occasions, primary consideration is related to ensuring the utmost protection of the public. I am sure that we can all subscribe to that principle. We cannot accept the amendment for those reasons. I hope that some of the information that was asked for adds extra clarity, and I am happy to have answered the question on the points-based appeal system to the satisfaction of the noble Lord, Lord Avebury.
- Time
- 15:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord AveburyLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- My Lords, I thank the noble Lord most sincerely for giving the information on appeals under the points-based system and for his undertaking that, when guidance is published in March next year, it will indicate that a person applying for an extension of leave will have a 28-day grace period following the expiry of the previous leave. As the Minister said, having that knowledge in advance will be extremely helpful to practitioners; otherwise, as we have said all along, a person who failed to lodge the application in time or who made a mistake on the application and had to resubmit it would no longer have been eligible for consideration to extend his leave. That would put an end to the careers of, for example, students in higher education and work permit holders who had hoped to continue their work or studies in the UK. It is also useful to have on record the Minister’s confirmation that electronic monitoring could be considered in such cases, as in others. I asked the Minister a further question, which he did not have time to deal with. I am not going to pursue it here, but perhaps he will pick it up and write to noble Lords following these proceedings. The question was who, given that the decision to apply electronic monitoring is nominally that of the Secretary of State, will take it on her behalf and whether that person will have published guidance, which will be available to immigration practitioners.
- Time
- 15:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord DholakiaLiberal Democrat- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 34A:
- Time
- 16:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness HanhamConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, I support the amendment. It gives us an opportunity to test the Minister a little more on the code of conduct that we talked about earlier, although I appreciate that this brings it into the complaints procedure. If the code of conduct or anything of relevance in this Bill is not to be extended to agencies and contractors, that will leave a very big gap in the matter of protection and the way that people operate as a result. I look forward to the Minister’s reply. This is an important amendment and I am happy to support it.
- Time
- 16:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord HyltonCrossbench
- Quote
- My Lords, it seems to me that, however good a code of conduct, mistakes will still be made and there will still be grounds for complaint. I have to plead ignorance because I do not know, as no doubt I should, whether there is an official channel for complaints from people in detention and removal centres. The noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, suggests that it should be the Independent Police Complaints Commission. If the Government are not satisfied that that is the appropriate body, surely it is incumbent on them to suggest another venue. We know that such complaints do arise, and organisations such as Bail for Immigration Detainees have provided chapter and verse on this subject.
- Time
- 16:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Baroness Carnegy of LourConservative- Quote
- My Lords, this is a very important matter. In speaking to the amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, took the actual wording of the amendment. In reply to this debate, can the Minister refer to Scotland? It seems to me that amending the Police and Justice Act 2006 would not be adequate. I may be wrong. Has the Minister considered that matter?
- Time
- 16:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Bassam of BrightonLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, for the way in which he has moved the amendment. I recognise that it is very important and significant as regards accountability, oversight and so on. I am also grateful to him for providing me with a way out, as he put it. That was very generous of him, but I have come to expect that generosity from the noble Lord in such matters. I hope that my comments will give some encouragement to noble Lords on this issue. I suspect that, in the end, we will not be a million miles apart in what we seek to achieve. There can be little disagreement about the importance of the issue and the need for accountability and oversight in dealing with properly made complaints. The Police and Justice Act 2006 gave the Secretary of State the power to make regulations in England and Wales, conferring functions on the IPCC in relation to the exercise by immigration officers of specified enforcement functions and the exercise by officials of the Secretary of State of specified enforcement functions relating to immigration and asylum. The 2006 Act did not confer a power with regard to private contractors exercising any of the enforcement functions listed within the Act, such as those carried out by contractors providing detention and escort services, as it was considered that robust oversight mechanisms for these contracts were already in place. This amendment, as argued, would allow the IPCC jurisdiction in England and Wales to be extended to private contractors, with the exception of those exempted from the provisions in Section 41(3). We all recognise that contractors play a valuable role in delivering the objectives of the Border and Immigration Agency. Where they are used, it is right that appropriate oversight arrangements are in place. There is no disagreement about that. The enforcement roles currently performed by contractors include detention and custody officers, detainee escorting and accredited search officers for freight searching at ports. So there is already a degree of oversight in those areas. In the case of detention functions, oversight is provided, of course, by the Prisons and Probation Ombudsman, who investigates deaths in detention and considers complaints where detainees are not content with the response they receive from either the agency or the contractor. So there is already a level of oversight provided through that mechanism. One could fairly argue that the Prison and Probation Ombudsman, first, does a very good job—I know the current office holder has engendered a great deal of respect; and, secondly, it may well be that, for the moment, that is the most appropriate route and mechanism. The use of freight search contractors in border control is regulated by the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2006. Section 41(1) requires that a Crown servant be appointed to monitor the exercise of powers by the contractor, to inspect the way in which the powers are exercised and to investigate and to report to the Secretary of State about any allegations made against the contractor. The agency is currently exploring the potential of using contractors more widely to add further value to how the Border Immigration Agency delivers its services. As is currently the case with detention custody officers and accredited search officers, the appropriate level of oversight depends on the nature of the function being performed. Once the future functions are fully understood, we will consult on the appropriate level of oversight. The current feeling within the Government is that, until that time, it would not be right to legislate on this issue, hence our caution. In the mean time, and pending completion of our exploratory work on widening the use of contractors, we will ensure that there is co-operation with the IPCC and other monitoring bodies, as built into contracts, so that the issue is covered.
- Time
- 16:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord DholakiaLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- My Lords, I thank the Minister. I definitely have a soft spot for him, because both he and I started our political careers in Brighton. However, I sometimes wish that he would throw his briefing notes away, look at the strength of our case and say, “Yes, that is right and ought to be done”. The Minister has used two arguments. First, he talked about the prison ombudsman. I remind him that there was substantial discussion in this House on corporate manslaughter, which did not accept that that was the right way to proceed on such a serious matter. Ultimately, the Home Office and the Minister for Justice gave way. Secondly, he talked about ensuring that the IPCC will receive co-operation, but there is a difference between co-operating with the IPCC and the IPCC having jurisdiction over contractors’ actions. That is the point we are trying to make. I said before that I will look carefully at the consultation process taking place. There are other opportunities, but perhaps the Minister would look at whether there is anything more he can do on this issue before Third Reading. I am sure that the Government want to find a way out. If that is the case I will be able to help, but there certainly will be other opportunities for me to seek the opinion of the House.
- Time
- 16:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Bassam of BrightonLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I certainly undertake to consider again the carefully phrased comments of the noble Lord, for whom I also have more than a soft spot. I shall also use this opportunity to answer the point of the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy of Lour: it is correct that Section 41 of the Police and Justice Act 2006 gives the IPCC oversight of immigration officers and officials in England and Wales. In Scotland, the role will be that of the procurator fiscal and the Police Complaints Commissioner for Scotland. As for private contactors, if their role is extended we will of course ensure—as I have said on several occasions—that adequate oversight arrangements are in place, not just England and Wales but in all the UK jurisdictions.
- Time
- 16:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord DholakiaLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
- Time
- 16:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord AveburyLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 35:
- Time
- 16:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Bassam of BrightonLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, this amendment would impose a requirement to provide immigration detainees held in a police station with access to immigration advice on request. Noble Lords on the Liberal Democrat Benches tabled this amendment in Committee and we had a very full debate on it at that point. Although we could not accept the amendment, I had hoped that the reassurances I gave during the debate might have addressed some of their major concerns. I explained in Committee why we did not consider this amendment necessary and, in essence, we have not changed our view. We agree, however, that it is entirely right for individuals detained under Immigration Act powers to be able to access competent and independent legal advice at an early stage. Those are two essentials. That includes individuals held at a police station. We acknowledge that in the past immigration detainees held initially at police stations, usually before transfer to an immigration removal centre, may not always have been able to gain easy access to immigration advice. It would be fairly accepted that that was in large part due to the fact that duty solicitors, who would normally be contacted by the police on behalf of detainees, were unlikely to be able to provide advice to individuals on non-criminal immigration matters. To address this issue, the Legal Services Commission has been running a pilot scheme since June 2006 to provide independent immigration advice by telephone on non-criminal immigration matters to people detained at police stations. I explained in Committee that the commission believes that telephone advice is, realistically, the most effective method of providing timely advice to individuals held at police stations, particularly as they will usually be held for very short periods before transfer to an immigration removal centre or release. Indeed, the commission has been piloting the provision of telephone advice for people held at police stations since October 2005. Under the Criminal Defence Services Direct pilot scheme, the commission evaluated the use of telephone advice for individuals detained at police stations and facing specific criminal charges. The pilot established that the provision of telephone advice provided clients with prompt access to legal advice and represented value for money in terms of public expenditure. In relation to the telephone pilot for immigration detainees, I understand that feedback received from advisers taking part in the scheme has suggested that the benefit to clients has been very positive, and that no significant problems with telephone advice as a method of delivery have been reported. One of the concerns raised in Committee was how a telephone-based service could deal with the need for interpreters. The pilot scheme explored this issue. Under that scheme all advisers have to be able to set up three-way conversations between the police station, the interpreter and themselves. This is a contractual requirement—it is specified in the terms of the contract—for firms taking part in the pilot. The commission has indicated that it will share its findings in relation to the evaluation of the scheme with representative bodies, and that the evaluation will be published on its website in November. I understand that the findings have been positive and that the commission will be tendering for new contracts later this year. The noble Lord has identified a genuine issue. We have taken steps to meet some of the pressures and demands that have arisen as a consequence of that issue. I think that we can fairly say that we have addressed those concerns through the pilots and, when the evaluation report is fully absorbed, we hope that it will be possible to see in the tendering process next year a wider adoption of the telephone advice service. On the point raised in particular by the noble Lord about the need to meet organisations concerned about this which in one way or another provide advice and support, the department meets regularly with stakeholders including the Poppy Project and others that he referred to. No doubt they will use the opportunity of those discussions and meetings to reflect on the issue raised by the amendment. In any event, I give an undertaking that this is one issue that will be fairly considered when department officials next meet.
- Time
- 16:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord AveburyLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- My Lords, that is a very satisfactory reply. My excuse for tabling this amendment again is that we heard further from representatives of the TGWU after the matter was raised in Grand Committee. At that point, their anxieties were not assuaged. However, what the Minister said this afternoon will go a long way towards satisfying them that adequate arrangements have been made and that their clients will not be left in the lurch for a whole five days without any access to advice. I hope that the information that will be published in November—the Minister said that it would be given to practitioners in advance of being placed on the website—will be distributed to the TGWU, which is the main agent of concern over the question of access to advice in police custody. I am also grateful to the Minister for saying that he will ensure that other organisations that have raised the matter with us, particularly the Poppy Project, which mentioned this in its current research, are brought into the picture next time there is an opportunity to raise it with them. In the circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
- Time
- 16:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord Roberts of LlandudnoLiberal Democrat- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 36:
- Time
- 16:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Baroness Morgan of DrefelinLabour- Quote
- My Lords, I remind the House that we are not encouraged to use visual aids in debates.
- Time
- 16:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Roberts of LlandudnoLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- My Lords, in a way, I am quoting from it. This attractive, accessible, available magazine format might be what we need. The Minister may say, “We think that it is a great idea, but we cannot afford it” but perhaps some encouragement could be given for producing it commercially. It could be paid for by advertising. However it is produced, it would be in the hands of those who need it and could be a helpline for them. With those words, and accepting the rightly merited reprimand, I beg to move.
- Time
- 16:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord HyltonCrossbench
- Quote
- My Lords, this is an important amendment. We are all aware that there have been too many bad cases of exploitation of migrant workers. Complaints have usually ranged around sub-standard wages, poor accommodation and food provided, and excessive deductions from pay. Therefore, this amendment provides a useful list of the kind of information needed and would be of great value to citizens’ advice bureaux. There have been problems about access to healthcare and even education. My only query is why not include Romania and Bulgaria as well because they are now members of the European Union? I realise that there have been some restrictions on migrant workers coming from those countries, but more may well come in the future. I look forward to the Government’s response.
- Time
- 16:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness HanhamConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, there is no doubt that we benefit enormously from the A8 countries and the great number of immigrants—if we can call them immigrants, because they are all part of the EU. People coming to this country are providing a lot of the talents and expertise which we do not seem to have at the moment. My noble friend Lady Anelay did not support this amendment previously on the basis that it would be centrally driven and that the information would be provided from central government. People coming here tend to cluster and keep together. There are a lot in London, as well as a lot who move further north. It really is not much use having a centrally produced leaflet when the information they need concerns local facilities close to where they have settled. So yes, information should be provided, but information from central government is probably not very interesting, as well as probably being expensive and difficult to make available in the various languages. However, my experience of people from the A8 countries is that they can speak English almost better than we do. By and large, English works very well. Most important, though, is that local information is far more valuable than anything centrally produced.
- Time
- 16:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Bassam of BrightonLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, this has been a useful short debate. The noble Lord, Lord Roberts, has provided us with further thoughts on information provision by drawing on his personal experience and making a little promotion for Canada. We have all learnt something this afternoon. I certainly do not distance myself from the thought that this amendment is anything other than useful because it is always valuable to talk about these issues. I cannot accept the proposed new clause for a number of reasons, but cost is not the most significant of those so far as we are concerned. That is because much of what the noble Lord is talking about is already being done, as I tried to suggest to him before. The benefits of migration from the A8 states are commonly agreed between most political parties in the United Kingdom. There is no doubt that workers from those states are contributing greatly to the economy and in supporting public services. I am sure that we could all provide a suitable anecdote to support that contention. Figures showing the growth in the economy make it clear as well. I agree that it is important that new migrants—not just those from the A8 states, to pick up on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hylton—understand what their rights and responsibilities are in the United Kingdom. The Home Office provides extensive information to all potential migrants. For A8 migrants, this includes specific advice on our websites produced in English and in all the A8 languages. This information is also provided overseas through the Foreign Office at our embassies and consulates. That is more important than providing information for migrants as they disembark at Victoria coach station, because by the time they arrive there, it is almost too late. They need information in advance of coming to the United Kingdom. The European Union provides much by way of advice, and the EURES network provides detailed information and advertises jobs across Europe. It makes available a lot of the information that I think the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, is seeking to place in the hands of migrants who are quite legitimately coming here to work. Further, we do not believe that it is appropriate to legislate for the reasons alluded to by the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham. It would be excessively centralised and overly prescriptive. However, it is important that other agencies assist in this field, and they do. Indeed, the noble Baroness made the point that because the different groups tend to cluster, information is best provided locally as well as being accessible centrally. Even if I were convinced that legislation is the way forward on this, I do not think that ports would be the best place to locate such information. People who take an active and positive decision to migrate investigate the opportunities before moving here. It is therefore much more important that the information is available before they come to the United Kingdom. For those reasons, I am not convinced by the arguments put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Roberts. It is in all our interests to ensure that those living here understand their rights and their obligations. However, the new clause does not really provide for that; it merely imposes what can fairly be described as a bureaucratic burden. To sum up, the noble Lord has moved the amendment in the best spirit, but much of this information is already in the public domain. The Home Office provides it here and it is made available at our consulates and embassies, as well as through other agencies. I understand that the TUC provides a very good information pack for those coming to the UK to work. So the information is there and it is accessible. No doubt we will continue to improve that information as this issue becomes more important and significant in ensuring that those who come here fully understand their rights and their obligations. I hope that the noble Lord will not feel too offended by our decision not to support the amendment and will dwell on the more positive observations that have been made during this short debate.
- Time
- 16:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Roberts of LlandudnoLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reassuring reply. I am glad about the various languages in which he says the information is available. I actually circulated Welsh local authorities and asked them what they were doing to let migrants into their areas know about what was happening there and in which language they published the information, and three answered, “Welsh and English”. I am not sure the Welsh helped but we certainly need a wider vision than that. I hope that the various local authorities, like Cornwall—its handbook is a wonderful example of what can be done—will be able to make information on all these points readily available to all those who need it in their areas. I hope someone might be listening somewhere who will say that a venture such as the Newcomer magazine in Canada might be a commercial possibility. I am grateful to the Minister. This matter will carry on in various ways but, because of the discussion we have had, which was very useful, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗