Committee stage in the Lords
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Baroness NoakesConservative- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 106:
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Lord Davies of OldhamLabour- Quote
- The services that the ONS currently provides—that is, providing information and advice and undertaking surveys—are those that we envisage the board undertaking. The services will be discretionary; there is no obligation to provide them. Any charging is permitted by Clause 24 as expedient in connection with the exercise of the board’s functions. There is no need for an express charging power or a duty to charge for any services being provided. As with any government department, the board will be subject to cross-government rules and guidelines on what it may charge for services. These rules are designed to ensure that government departments and public bodies charge appropriately. For example, as with any government department, the board will be subject to the Freedom of Information Act, competition law and the Re-use of Public Sector Information Regulations so far as selling information for commercial re-use is concerned. The board will be subject also to a range of cross-governmental administrative rules that set out when it would be able to charge. The problem with the amendment is that the board would lose this flexibility. The amendment is unnecessary, as the board will be covered by the wider detailed framework on charging for services that applies to all government departments. The noble Baroness may be right that services may be provided to third-world countries on the basis of funding from the Department for International Development, but it is not for us to specify such arrangements in the Bill. The board will fit into the pattern of all public bodies and be subject to the same rules governing the basis on which it may charge. It has the right to do so; none of its functions is obligatory. I hope that the noble Baroness will therefore recognise that we have taken into account the concerns that she expressed and have addressed them in the Bill.
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- Baroness NoakesConservative
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- Is it possible for the Statistics Board to do pro bono work under the Bill?
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- Lord Davies of OldhamLabour
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- Only within the framework of the government rules and regulations that cover departments. It is the same as for any public body in those terms. Departments have different relationships with the client groups and bodies with which they are concerned. The board is no different from any other in that respect.
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- Baroness NoakesConservative
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- I am grateful for the Minister’s response. He said that the board was no different from any other body, but did not tell me what the current rules for government departments are. I seek clarification.
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- Lord Davies of OldhamLabour
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- The rules set out certain areas where charges are obligatory for what the Government provide. However, there are elements of discretion within the framework. The noble Baroness will recognise that there might be a body to which the board relates where it was deemed part of public policy that no charging be effected. That would be against a general background of charging in the same way as other public bodies, however.
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- Baroness NoakesConservative
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- I regard the Minister’s response as somewhat unsatisfactory. We are told that the board is to be independent, yet I cannot get a clear answer as to whether it is to follow government policy elsewhere on providing services at full cost or otherwise. The Minister has not really answered the question of whether it should be charging for all services. The issue is not that it is not right sometimes for government to subsidise services, but whether the Statistics Board should be using its clear financial envelope—set out in this five-year settlement that we keep being told about—for the statistical functions in the Bill. I seek to ascertain to what extent the board may, should or could divert its resources elsewhere. Can the Minister clarify that further?
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- Lord Davies of OldhamLabour
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- The noble Baroness is quite right that the board has a five-year settlement. She will also recognise that there may be opportunities for additional receipts from its charging for services commissioned from it, and that those are additional resources. I confess to the noble Baroness that I stumbled a little on her question about pro bono, which is a particular concept. I will write to her on that point, but I am glad that she has drawn attention to the board’s five-year settlement on its own resources. She will also recognise that, like the ONS, the board will have the capacity to charge and increase its resources where appropriate.
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- Baroness NoakesConservative
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- I thank the Minister for offering to write, and welcome that. He will be aware that I was not so much worried about the Statistics Board increasing the resources that might otherwise be available for its proper purposes as about those resources being diminished. I hope that he will take that into account when he writes to me. I look forward to that letter, and beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 20 agreed to. Clause 21 [Statistical research]: [Amendment No. 107 not moved.] Clause 21 agreed to. Clause 22 [Delegated functions]: [Amendments Nos. 108 to 110 not moved.] Clause 22 agreed to. Clause 23 [Census etc]: [Amendment No. 111 not moved.] Clause 23 agreed to. [Amendment No. 112 not moved.] Schedule 1 agreed to.
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- Baroness NoakesConservative
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- moved Amendment No. 113:
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Lord NewbyLiberal Democrat- Quote
- It does not matter to us whereabouts the sentiments behind the amendments in this group might find their place in the Bill. As the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, said, the Government envisage that the chief statistician will, in order to meet the Prime Minister, have to negotiate with a Cabinet Secretary who might just say, “No, I’m terribly sorry, but he’s going to be busy for the next few weeks or months”. That is not adequate. It does not reflect the situation that obtained when the noble Lord, Lord Moser, was chief statistician and it does not reflect the importance of the chief statistician, particularly in the circumstances set out by these amendments.
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- Lord Davies of OldhamLabour
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- I, too, regret that the noble Lord, Lord Moser, is not here to argue this case with even greater force than the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and the noble Lord, Lord Newby, have just done. The National Statistician has a right of access to the Prime Minister through the head of the Civil Service under the terms of the framework for national statistics, and we intend that this right will continue. We have already argued these points during the Bill’s progress in this House and the other place. The role and status of the National Statistician is strong in this Bill. The nearest comparators are the Government’s Chief Medical Officer and Chief Scientific Adviser. While neither of those is a statutory appointment, and while both are leaders of their respective professions in government, they have no statutory right of access to the Prime Minister, nor are there requirements on the Government to follow their advice or to give reasons if they do not do so. The bedrock of this system is transparency and accountability to Parliament. The board and the National Statistician are required to act openly, which includes publishing the results of assessments against the code. They publish any advice or concerns about statistics across government. Open discourse is the best assurance of the role of the National Statistician, but we intend that she shall continue to enjoy the right of access to the Prime Minister if so required.
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- Baroness NoakesConservative
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- The Minister is contradicting what his honourable friend the Financial Secretary said in another place. Can he confirm that the National Statistician does not have to negotiate access via the Cabinet Secretary and that this is a direct right? Can he clarify that for the record?
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- Lord Davies of OldhamLabour
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- I do not have a note on that point, but I am indicating that the current National Statistician does not go through the Cabinet Office. For obvious reasons, I understand the importance of the amendment that was carried in Committee the other day, but I do not think that that affects the right of the National Statistician and the significance of his role. If an issue exercises him to the extent that he feels that the Prime Minister has to be approached directly, that right exists.
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- Baroness NoakesConservative
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- I do not want there to be any lack of clarity. The amendment has nothing to do with the amendments that we moved successfully last week, which replaced “Treasury” with “Cabinet Office” on the residual functions that reside with the Government. This is a question of whether the National Statistician gains access to the Prime Minister through the Cabinet Secretary or goes directly to the Prime Minister. It is a matter of extreme importance because, had Mr Healey not said that he had to go through the Cabinet Secretary, I suspect that there would not have been such concern about the arrangements intended to operate for the National Statistician under the Bill. I should be grateful for the Minister’s clarification.
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- Lord Davies of OldhamLabour
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- I understand that the right to access is through the Cabinet Secretary as head of the Civil Service. That is the basis on which the National Statistician has operated and we do not seek to change that process. I reassure the noble Baroness that, whatever is contended as having been said elsewhere, we are sustaining the arrangements that have obtained for the National Statistician through the years for right of access to the Prime Minister through the Cabinet Secretary. That is how it works.
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Lord Jenkin of RodingConservative- Quote
- I, too, have discussed the matter with the noble Lord, Lord Moser, and I do not believe that he ever had to go through the Cabinet Secretary. He had direct access to the Prime Minister. It is a pity that the noble Lord is not here to make that point to the Minister, but that was the position as he outlined it to me and to others who have met him and discussed these issues. I do not think that the Minister is right in saying that access has always been through the Cabinet Secretary. It may have been since 2000, when the new framework was established; if so, that is a pity. However, we are looking to see the full practice reinstated with the right of direct access. One can understand that a strong Cabinet Secretary, approached by a Permanent Secretary when he knows what will be criticised directly to the Prime Minister, can make it extremely difficult for the National Statistician to see the Prime Minister, unless the National Statistician has the statutory right of direct access.
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- Lord Davies of OldhamLabour
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- I hear what the noble Lord says. Of course it would have helped to have the benefit of a contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Moser, but I am reflecting what the present National Statistician enjoys. I am aware that the noble Lord, Lord Moser, goes a long way back in terms of his service to government and it may well be that he had a somewhat different arrangement. It certainly was not a statutory right, but that is what the amendment seeks to achieve. I was reflecting what I understood to be the National Statistician’s rights of access. It may well be that the noble Lord, Lord Moser—such is his reputation and the recognition of his significant role—enjoyed privileges that might not be vouchsafed to everyone. But we are discussing legislation here and I was faithfully reflecting the legislative position that governs the National Statistician.
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- Baroness NoakesConservative
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- I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Jenkin for reflecting the conversations that he has had with the noble Lord, Lord Moser. They seem to be almost the same as the conversations that I have had with the noble Lord. He served three Prime Ministers, so there was not an isolated instance or a case of having a special relationship with one Prime Minister. The noble Lord, Lord Moser, has been quite clear to me, to others and to the House about the value that he placed on direct access in order to get difficult things to happen, often involving other departments that were, for one reason or another, not observing best practice. The Minister will be aware that the most important influences are often those behind the scenes, and this was a way of ensuring that the National Statistician could operate through the Prime Minister behind the scenes. The Minister’s response, which echoed that given in another place, is extremely disappointing and does not line up with the position that the noble Lord, Lord Moser, wants to see and which we support. However, I will not press the matter this evening. I hope that the Minister can go back and reflect on the matter with his colleagues, because, like the noble Lord, Lord Moser, we place a great deal of emphasis on it. On Report, I hope that we can make some more positive progress on the issue. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 24 [Ancillary powers]: On Question, Whether Clause 24 shall stand part of the Bill?
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The Earl of NortheskConservative- Quote
- The Minister will, I hope, be relieved to hear that my purpose in initiating a clause stand part debate is probing in character. As I implied with my earlier amendment, my motivation stems from my concern about the extent to which the Government envisage that the board should, or should not, become a conduit for the wider dissemination of raw data, rather than statistics, throughout Whitehall and conceivably beyond. The Minister sought earlier to offer me some reassurance on the point by referring to Clause 44(9). However, I am not convinced that that provision affords me all that much comfort. Clause 24(1) states: “The Board may do anything which it thinks necessary or expedient”. Its potential scope therefore, in so far as it is not confined to “statistical” function, is extremely wide. I acknowledge that up to a point it may be constrained by virtue of the reference to “ancillary” powers, but, by the same token, there is no indication in the Bill as to what these may be. Accordingly, it is mildly tempting to suppose that the clause offers an open invitation to function creep. It may well be that I am being unnecessarily obtuse. Nevertheless, it would be helpful to know whether the Government’s intention is that the power granted is to be limited to “statistical” function alone or whether it is intended to go wider. If it is the latter, it would be helpful to know the sort of circumstances in which the Government envisage the power being exercised. Indeed, I should be grateful if he could provide some practical examples.
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Lord Evans of Temple GuitingLabour- Quote
- As the noble Earl said, this is a probing Motion. The purpose of a clause of this nature is to give the board the necessary powers to transact its day-to-day business. It does not widen the scope of the board’s activities, nor does it provide any powers of compulsion. If it helps noble Lords, I will list some of the things that we expect the board may do under the power—enter agreements, acquire and dispose of property and promote or assist the promotion of publicity about the work of the board. These powers will also entitle the board to charge for certain services on a discretionary basis as ONS currently does; for example, for paper copies of its publications, for any statistical services it provides and for services promoting statistical research. The inclusion of such a clause is fairly standard when creating independent statutory organisations such as a board. Such provision is included in, for example, the Utilities Act 2000, giving the offices of gas and electricity these powers. The clause in no way widens the scope of the board; it is there because it is necessary; and there is no interpretation of it other than it is a fairly standard clause that is found in many government Bills.
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- Baroness NoakesConservative
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- Before my noble friend decides what to do with his Motion, will the Minister explain a little more about Clause 24(2)? It states: “Anything required to be published by the Board may be published by it in such manner as it thinks fit”. Are there any restrictions on the board’s power under subsection (2)? For example, would it have to provide items in other languages—say, in Welsh? Could it get away with publishing everything on the internet? Are there any restrictions on this extremely wide power? I am puzzled by the breadth of the power.
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- Lord Evans of Temple GuitingLabour
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- I shall say two things. First, I will go back to the point that this is a non-executive board composed of people with experience in other fields, who have a certain independence and who are not in the business of doing anything other than what the Government intend the board should do. Secondly, all the board’s functions are statistical; anything it does must be in line with that basic premise. There is little for the noble Baroness to worry about.
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- The Earl of NortheskConservative
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- I thank the Minister for his reply. I am reasonably content. Clause 24 agreed to. Clause 25 [Reports]: [Amendments Nos. 114 and 115 not moved.]
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Lord Howard of RisingConservative- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 116:
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- Lord Davies of OldhamLabour
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- Clause 26 obliges the board to have regard to efficiency and cost-effectiveness when deciding on the exercise of its functions, and to limit the costs that individuals, businesses and other organisations bear as a result of its activities; for example, when requiring them to fill in a survey. ONS has a long history of working to minimise the survey burden on respondents. It is right that this valuable work continues and that the board builds on this in assessing the burden that it places on others for the necessary supply of information. I do not think that it is necessary to have an explicit requirement that the board should report on this one particular aspect of its functions. After all, the board has a wide range of functions and its job is to present a report to Parliament on how it fulfils its obligations. If it was clear that the board was failing in the respect to which the noble Lord draws attention, there is no doubt that that report would be subject to criticism. We have got the board properly accountable for its work. It has a range of functions; it would be invidious to single out one function on which we laid legislative emphasis. I hope that the noble Lord will recognise that we also have precedent in how the ONS goes about its work. The board will inherit some working practices germane to its operations which have stood the statistical service in good stead.
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- Lord Howard of RisingConservative
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- I thank the Minister. The board has not a function but a duty. There cannot be much wrong with asking the board to report on its efficiency at the same time as the many other things that it is obliged to report on. If the board does this at least how it is getting on, what it is doing and how it is managing its business will be able to be examined. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
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- Baroness NoakesConservative
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- moved Amendment No. 117:
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- Lord Evans of Temple GuitingLabour
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- As we have heard, Amendment No. 169 would require the board to establish a committee consisting of non-executive members of the board, to keep under review whether the board’s internal financial controls secure the proper conduct of its financial affairs. Amendment No. 117 would ensure that the board’s annual report included a report of the work of the committee. The Government believe that corporate governance is of fundamental importance. Good corporate governance includes embedding effective risk management at all levels of the management of government organisations, increasing the need for explicit assurance about risk, control and governance in organisations. As the noble Baroness knows, the work of audit committees is a key part of that. To promote good practice across government, the Treasury publishes Corporate Governance in Central Government Departments: Code of Good Practice. The code contains as one of its basic principles that, “the board should ensure that effective arrangements are in place to provide assurance on risk management, governance and internal control. In this respect, the board should be independently advised by an audit committee chaired by an independent non-executive member”. The corporate governance code also sets out that audit committees should be established by and function in accordance with the Audit Committee Handbook, another Treasury publication. Clause 32 empowers the board to establish committees to exercise its functions, give it advice, and support it in transacting its business. However, rightly, it does not specify the names and functions of specific committees that must be established. The Government fully expect that the board will use that power to establish an independent and objective audit committee, chaired by an independent non-executive member, as set out in the code on corporate governance and following the guidance set out in the Audit Committee Handbook. In addition, the Government expect Parliament to play the central role in holding the statistical system to account. There will be full accountability to Parliament as much for this aspect of the board’s work as for others. For example, in the extremely unlikely event that the board failed to establish an audit committee, I have no doubt that that would be a matter of fundamental concern to Parliament and it would call the board to account for that failure. In those circumstances, we do not think it necessary to legislate for an audit committee. It is for the independent board to determine how it sets up its committees, including the details of their membership, and it is not appropriate to stipulate so much detail in the Bill. The board will be expected to follow best practice guidance, but it would not be appropriate to put that in legislation. As I have said in previous debates, we do not think it necessary to stipulate the contents of the board’s annual report. Clause 25 already requires the board’s annual report to cover what it has done and what it has found each year, and within that remit, we think we should allow the board to use its own judgment, following good practice guidance, to ensure that the most pertinent information about its activities are reported each year. I hope my explanation is satisfactory to the noble Baroness.
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- Baroness NoakesConservative
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- I thank the Minister for that comprehensive response. However, he has not explained why in some Bills the Government write audit committees into the government structure and not in others. Does he know the reason for that?
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- Lord Evans of Temple GuitingLabour
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- I do not know the answer. I shall write to the noble Baroness. I agree with her that it is inconceivable that the board should not have an audit committee. I ask her not to be overly concerned about this point.
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- Baroness NoakesConservative
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- I am concerned about many points in this Bill and I shall seek assurances on many aspects. I am grateful for the Minister's comprehensive reply, which I shall consider carefully alongside his last comment. I am mystified why some Ministers, including Treasury Ministers, stand at the Dispatch Box saying, “We have to legislate for this”, and on other occasions they say, “Of course, we have to let the board do it”. The Minister might accept that that is inconsistent government. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
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- Lord Howard of RisingConservative
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- moved Amendment No. 118:
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- Lord Evans of Temple GuitingLabour
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- These amendments relate to the board's duties to prepare reports. The reports under Clause 25 are reports primarily to Parliament and, where relevant, the devolved legislatures, although of course the reports published under this clause will also be published and made widely available. The reports are particularly important given Parliament’s central accountability role, and should be one of the main mechanisms by which Parliament might hold the statistical system to account. The annual report under Clause 25 should include the board’s forward work plans, including that of the executive office of the National Statistician and—as with the annual reports produced by all departments—the board’s audited annual accounts. Although we strongly hope that Parliament will play an active scrutiny role throughout the year, and not just once a year at the point of the publication of the board’s annual report, the annual reporting system will help Parliament to assess whether the board is effectively and efficiently discharging its duties. Reports under Clause 25 will allow the board to inform Parliament about: the advice and guidance it has provided to others, including Ministers of the Crown and Ministers in the devolved Administrations, under other duties and powers it has in the Bill; the response it has received from those to whom it has provided that advice; and its views on the adequacy of the response where appropriate. Amendments Nos. 118 and 119 would put an explicit requirement on the board to lay its reports before both Houses of Parliament. This is unnecessary. Section 1(1) of the Laying of Documents before Parliament (Interpretation) Act 1948 already provides that a reference in any Act to the laying of any instrument, report, account or other document before Parliament is to be construed as a reference to the laying of the document before each House of Parliament, unless the contrary intention is stipulated. The reference to Parliament in Clause 26 therefore will ensure that reports will be laid before each House, without the need for further elaboration. I hope that the noble Lord is reassured by that answer.
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- Lord Howard of RisingConservative
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- I thank the Minister for that valuable information and for confirming that the report will be laid before both Houses. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendment No. 119 not moved.]
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- Lord NewbyLiberal Democrat
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- moved Amendment No. 120:
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- Lord Evans of Temple GuitingLabour
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- As we have heard, Amendment No. 120 would require any report produced under Clause 25 to be published at the same time as it is laid before Parliament. Those reports are particularly important given Parliament’s central accountability role and should be one of the main mechanisms by which Parliament holds the statistical system to account. As I said in reference to the last amendment, the reports are primarily to Parliament and, where relevant, the devolved legislatures—although they will be published and made widely available. We envisage that, in most cases, the laying of a report before Parliament and its publication will happen almost simultaneously. The Bill provides for publication as soon as possible after laying the report before Parliament. However, the procedure set out under this clause, under which the reports are available first to Parliament and then more widely, is the correct one. I am sure that noble Lords will agree that that is proper. With this explanation, I hope that the noble Lord will not press the amendment.
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- Lord NewbyLiberal Democrat
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- I am very grateful to the Minister for that reply. He was doing all right until he suggested that Parliament should have a period of grace. I thought he was going to say that there was no real difference between the Bill and my proposal, which would have been easy to accept. I will read again what he has said but, in the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 25 agreed to. Clause 26 [Efficiency etc]: [Amendments Nos. 121 to 124 not moved.] Clause 26 agreed to.
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Lord Lea of CrondallNon-affiliated- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 124A:
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- Lord NewbyLiberal Democrat
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- I am grateful to the noble Lord for bringing forward this amendment. At Second Reading and in Committee last week I raised the issue which he has raised in greater detail today. Since last week I have had a chance to read for the first time the FDA evidence to the Treasury Select Committee. That is the most damning document one could read of a decision to relocate any department anywhere in the UK given that one is talking about the FDA. It is not the miners’ union led by Arthur Scargill. One has to take what it says extremely seriously. As a matter of principle, we on these Benches have been great supporters of relocation. Indeed, my noble friend in another place Dr Cable has argued that the whole Treasury should move to Liverpool—a suggestion of which the Treasury has not approved with the alacrity with which it is forcing people from ONS to go down to south Wales. But there comes a point where, however much one might favour the principle of relocation, the cost and benefits weigh the other way. It seems to me that in respect of certain of the functions of the ONS, as the noble Lord, Lord Lea, explained, the argument for moving to Newport has not been made. Last week I referred to information which had been passed to me from someone who currently works for the ONS. It was claimed that, as of a fortnight ago, of the division which produces the RPI and the CPI—it has a staff of 35—not one of them had chosen to relocate to Newport and that there were serious risks to the production of those statistics over the coming months. Does the Minister recognise those figures and that danger? What action will the Treasury take if it believes that there is a serious risk that major statistical series will be disrupted if the move, as currently planned, goes ahead? As regards the role and powers of the board, if the amendment were passed, to reverse the changes, I fear that that could be extremely difficult unless it were possible to relocate back at a cost saving. As we have heard from the Minister, a five-year financial settlement has been agreed with the ONS which is predicated on the move to Newport being successfully concluded, with the reductions in costs that that brings with it. While I support the amendment and the sentiments underlying it, unless the Minister is about to tell me that the settlement can be re-opened, I have some doubts that it is a reversible situation.
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- Baroness NoakesConservative
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- We have considerable sympathy with the amendment. We have debated several times the issue of relocation to Newport. I do not think that anyone has yet found any comfort in the situation in which the ONS finds itself. There are two issues in relation to the amendment. First, in relation to Newport, is the position reversible? Does it have to happen? What are the cost implications for the five-year settlement? That is one range of issues for the here and now. The noble Lord, Lord Newby, and the noble Lord, Lord Lea, referred to the serious practical difficulties that the ONS appears to be encountering in being able to carry on its ordinary work given the unattractiveness to many of the ONS staff of relocating to Newport. It is, in fact, a very nice place to go, but I do not think that it could be regarded as somewhere we would expect statisticians to want to congregate in large numbers. It is not a natural statistical centre of the world or surprising that existing staff will not want to go there in large numbers. That is one set of issues.
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Lord NorthbrookNon-affiliated- Quote
- I, too, support the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Lea. The Government should listen very seriously to what he has said. The comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Newby, reflect the seriousness of the situation; that is, the statisticians who compile the CPI and the RPI will not be moving, which is a very dangerous situation. There will be a board, but no employees. The noble Lord, Lord Lea, is right to recommend that the board has the power to move to wherever it is necessary to get the right quality of employees.
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Viscount EcclesConservative- Quote
- Perhaps I may briefly refer to cultural change. The noble Lord, Lord Newby, raised this issue at Second Reading and I referred to the 29 targets that the Office for National Statistics is bidden to meet. The noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, has thrashed out the bare bones of what we were asking at Second Reading. We have not had any answers to those worries. I referred earlier today to whether it is possible for the Statistics Board to hit the ground running. I simply do not believe that it is. I feel very strongly about the combination of where the Office for National Statistics is coming from, the regime under which it has been controlled to date and what is expected to happen with all this independence and rebuilding of public trust as the objective. Quite frankly, it will not happen unless someone takes a serious look at this Bill and makes many important changes between now and Third Reading.
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- Lord Davies of OldhamLabour
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- I am grateful to my noble friend for this amendment, which has triggered an interesting and important debate. We are in transition at present and, in any cost-benefit analysis, rather more of the costs are obvious than the benefits which accrue. I want to put in context the Government’s policy on relocating activity outside London and the south-east. It developed following Sir Michael Lyons’s independent review of relocation, published three years ago, which argued that government was located too much in London and the south-east, to the detriment of other nations and regions within the UK. The Government welcomed that report. The Lyons review argued that relocation offers value-for-money gains, with departments able to take advantage of significantly lower rents and potentially lower labour costs in other regions by aligning pay with local labour market conditions. Unnecessarily locating government activities in the most expensive part of the UK does not make sense. I ask whether anyone quarrels with those important propositions. Relocating posts out of London also increases opportunities in other parts of the UK, such as allowing people from other locations to join the Civil Service. Relocation delivers economic benefits for an area by creating valuable jobs. New locations can be a spur for new ways of working, adopting better business practices, processes and technology, and reforming organisational culture. That is why the Government are making steady progress across departments in terms of relocation. The Ministry of Defence has moved 1,900 posts, the Home Office is moving 1,300 posts and the Department for Work and Pensions is moving 3,900. They are not just operational posts; policy work is also moving. For example, DfID has moved various policy teams from London to Scotland. Specialist work is also being moved: 150 posts in the Department of Health and a former NHS information service have migrated from offices in London and the south-east to Leeds. The ONS has a part to play in this wider strategy. It is relocating jobs out of London. I might add that accommodation costs are five times higher in London than they are in Newport, where most of the relocation is going. In circumstances where we all recognise the burden of London housing costs when it comes to the question of recruitment, the advantages that Newport offers will be recognised. This gives the ONS an opportunity to create a new structure, which will effect efficiency savings. I recognise that my noble friend has rightly identified the concerns of the FDA about the dislocation caused by the move. Of course there are concerns at this stage, and it is important that the ONS responds to them. That is why there are significant relocation packages to encourage staff to relocate to south Wales and to provide support and additional training for them. It is recognised that asking staff to do this involves a degree of sacrifice on their part. But these are issues that the FDA and the other unions involved are well equipped to deal with, with regard to managers. I recognise what my noble friend is indicating; namely, that there is some dislocation that is causing anxiety at this stage. These issues need to be addressed, but he will also recognise that the current process is at probably its most stressful position. I might add that Newport is not the end of the world, certainly not for statisticians. There is a significant ONS office already in Newport, so we are asking people to relocate not to a new site but to a well established office with much statistical expertise already in place. I recognise the commonsense point that my noble friend expressed so graphically, that the closer one is to key policy-makers, the louder one’s voice may be—or one thinks that it is—and that one does not need such a loud voice when one can whisper around the corner rather than calling from afar. That is a matter to take on board. The board will have to take responsibility for ensuring that this relocation does not adversely affect the quality of its work. But there is no evidence that that has been the case in other departments, and I see no reason for thinking that ONS managers will be any less successful than the Department of Health, for example, has been in moving its specialist workers. However, the concerns need to be met. I would be more concerned if my noble friend had had neither sight nor sound of any comment from organisations representing the workforce involved. Far from that being the case, he said that a great deal of activity is being carried out by the First Division Association, which is not a negligible influence on the Government or the Civil Service. I am fully aware of the anxieties that my noble friend expressed, but we are at the most difficult point in the process and machinery is in place to meet the difficulties that have arisen. If the move to Newport were stopped, it would create a very difficult situation. The board would be unlikely to think that that was a judicious action to take. The ONS is fitting into a pattern followed by many government departments. Therefore, the problems associated with relocation are widely known throughout government, as are the benefits. I reiterate that many of the benefits accrue in the longer term. An ONS office exists in the relocation area. Staff will find housing costs in that area a good deal less expensive than they are elsewhere. That represents for many a real improvement in their cost of living although I accept that relocation costs apply in any move. That is why we have packages in place to address that. Concern has been expressed on all sides of the Committee about an aspect of policy that generally achieves widespread agreement; namely, that we should seek to spread government functions and Civil Service jobs more widely than has been the case in the past. However, there are always anxieties about the disruption incurred in that. Nevertheless, I have every confidence that the service will meet the requirements imposed on it by these changes. The Office for National Statistics—and, in due course, the board—needs to wrestle with anything that impacts directly on the success of its work. Neither the ONS nor the board would fulfil its duties if the relocation resulted in a deterioration in the work of our statisticians. I have no reason to believe that that will be the outcome, but I appreciate that the needs of the staff should be taken seriously. These are serious issues concerning a service that is of great importance to the nation. The ONS, and subsequently the board when the Bill becomes an Act, is obliged to ensure that this transition is effected in a way that allays the fears of my noble friend and all Members of the Committee who spoke about this issue.
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- Lord Lea of CrondallNon-affiliated
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- I am afraid that I did not find that a very satisfactory answer. I hope that before Report my noble friend will ensure that there is very full consideration of the outstanding questions. He said that the board would not be doing its job properly if this move resulted in a deterioration in the work of statisticians. I am afraid that he contradicted himself by implying that there is no way in which this thing can be reversed. Government doctrine has to be reversed before Report. I thank all noble Lords for their helpful contributions. The central point that has been brought out and is now ready for drafting is that the board must have employment location as one of its central functions. In all areas of employment, that must be a central strategic function of senior management and strategic management; everyone knows that. The central fallacy in my noble friend’s brief, which comes from the Treasury, is that it does not compare apples with apples. The first rule of statistics is that you must compare apples with apples. What my noble friend has done—he is a great friend of mine, so I can say this—is compare the minimal move of certain people out of the Ministry of Defence, or the agriculture department or whatever, with a lock, stock and barrel move of the ONS. That is not comparing apples with apples, and no self-respecting statistician would make such an error. Is the Bank of England going to move lock, stock and barrel? Of course not. The same goes for the Ministry of Defence. I beg my noble friend to look at the three criteria, which have been carefully drafted; they are not just done off the top of someone’s head. The Treasury has not begun to deal with this remotely satisfactorily in the notes that it has prepared. As regards the idea that things are over the hump and will get better, I am afraid that the FDA says that it could all get worse. I see no evidence to support the Panglossian view that the relocation has gone through the worst. I regret to say that I will have to table an amendment very much like this on Report, unless my noble friend can think of a way of meeting half way the very logical points that I have made. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 27 [Directions]: [Amendment No. 125 not moved.]
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- Lord NewbyLiberal Democrat
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- moved Amendment No. 126:
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- Lord NewbyLiberal Democrat
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- moved Amendment No. 128:
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- Lord NewbyLiberal Democrat
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- moved Amendment No. 130:
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- Lord NewbyLiberal Democrat
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- moved Amendment No. 132:
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- Lord NewbyLiberal Democrat
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- moved Amendment No. 134:
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- Baroness NoakesConservative
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- moved Amendment No. 135:
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- Lord Jenkin of RodingConservative
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- I echo the last point of my noble friend about the power of direction standing as a very real threat over the board. It will always be looking over its shoulder at the possibility of a direction being issued under the clause. If it knows that the Cabinet Office, or whoever, must produce an order before Parliament which could be debateable—albeit by the negative procedure—that would be a considerable reassurance and a further indication of the distancing of Ministers from the day-to-day operation of the board. Almost the first statement that the Government made about the Bill was that the board distances Ministers from the operation of the statistical system. My noble friend’s amendment would be a tangible expression of the Government’s own philosophy. I hope that we will be able to support it.
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- Lord NewbyLiberal Democrat
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- On the face of it, the clause is pretty draconian. The definition of a “serious failure” could be pretty flexible. If the Minister believes that his colleagues here are always reasonable and sensible, perhaps he might contemplate the fact that Mr Salmond gets rather fed up with the Statistics Board producing statistics which inaccurately reflect the future of oil reserves in Scotland. The noble Baroness is therefore right to raise serious questions about the broad sweep of this clause. It would be helpful if the Minister gave us some idea of what the Government consider the kind of circumstances in which it might be invoked, particularly those in which the Government would not simultaneously invoke the earlier clauses about removing either the chair or non-executive directors. In many circumstances—relatively rare ones, I suspect—that would be the more logical way of doing it. If the Government wish to retain the power, having to come to Parliament to do it would serve as a break on their willingness to do so, as noble Lords have said.
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- Lord Davies of OldhamLabour
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- I assure the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, that the clause is as far removed from the day-to-day operations of the board as it is possible to get. It embraces the ultimate sanction against the board when there is a failure of such seriousness that the Chancellor acts. In acting, it is inconceivable that there would be no parliamentary response to such a dramatic development. The clause, which the noble Lord, Lord Newby, suggested was draconian, is actually less powerful in its impact upon the body as a final sanction than exists for the Food Standards Agency, where the Secretary of State can give such directions as he may consider appropriate for the purposes of remedying a serious failure. Similarly, Section 40 of the Environment Act empowers the Secretary of State to direct the Environment Agency on the implementation of any Community obligations or international agreements. That is what this clause does in the event of such neglect on the part of the board of its obligations under a European directive. Far from having anything to do with the day-to-day operations of the board, it is the final sanction when there has clearly been a complete breakdown of understanding of what it is necessary for the board to do such as to trigger the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s action. It is inconceivable that such an event would take place without the most widespread public debate and parliamentary response to it. We would be reflecting a very serious crisis in the operation of a board. Moreover, that board, more than the other bodies I referred to earlier, is recognised in terms of its independence and its performance—I refer to the individuals who have held the office of National Statistician and to the Office for National Statistics, which is due to be developed and subsumed into this board. I assure noble Lords as strongly as I possibly can that this is the ultimate fall-back position necessary for the Minister responsible for the overall operation of the board—the final sanction that he or she has in circumstances where there has been a significant dereliction of duty and failure. Such a failure, being massively in the public domain, would need to be open to reporting. It is inconceivable within that framework that there would not be the fullest parliamentary debate upon such an act. We are describing the position of crisis in the ultimate situation, where there is a breakdown. One or two noble Lords indicated that they hoped that this would never arise. It is highly unlikely that a body as responsible as this board would ever get into these circumstances, but there is a need for a failsafe mechanism for the Minister who is responsible for Parliament and to the people for the discharge of the functions of the board. Therefore, a reserve power is necessary. Otherwise, it must be contended, what is being suggested is that the board could get into a very serious circumstance indeed, without a Minister having any direct responsibility for putting things right.
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- Baroness NoakesConservative
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- We asked the Minister for examples and he gave us none. We asked him to explain why Clause 4 did not give the Minister sufficient powers. The Minister has given other examples of directional powers and I do not believe that they are as severe as this clause, which allows either the relevant Minister or the devolved Administration to step in and exercise the powers of the board. We are less than convinced that this is the right way to go. My amendment proposed a modest parliamentary procedure which would have acted as a backstop. I do not want to carry this over to Report; I would like to seek the opinion of the Chamber.
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- Lord NewbyLiberal Democrat
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- moved Amendment No. 136:
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- Lord NewbyLiberal Democrat
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- moved Amendment No. 139:
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- Lord NewbyLiberal Democrat
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- moved Amendment No. 141:
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- Lord NewbyLiberal Democrat
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- moved Amendment No. 143:
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- Lord NewbyLiberal Democrat
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- moved Amendment No. 146:
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- Lord Evans of Temple GuitingLabour
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- I beg to move that the House do now resume. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to. House resumed.
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