Committee stage in the Lords
- Speaker
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Andrews)Labour- Quote
- My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to. House in Committee accordingly. [The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Lord Brabazon of Tara) in the Chair.]
- Time
- 12:23
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Baroness Scott of Needham MarketLiberal Democrat- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 235A:
- Time
- 12:23
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord GreavesLiberal Democrat- Quote
- moved, as an amendment to Amendment No. 235A, Amendment No. 235ZAA:
- Time
- 12:23
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness AndrewsLabour
- Quote
- These are two very interesting Opposition amendments. The first would add regional assemblies, and the second would add local strategic partnerships and other partnership bodies to the list of relevant authorities for the purposes of the ethical regime for local government, which would mean that members of these bodies would be subject to the provisions of the code of conduct that members of relevant authorities are required to follow. I am grateful to the noble Baroness for resisting the temptation to take us on an excursion to the future regional assemblies. I will observe the same discipline. There is no doubt in my mind that it is important that members of regional assemblies should follow high standards of conduct and good practice so that they act transparently and accountably. My difficulty is with a blanket extension of the national code of conduct to members of these bodies, as the amendment suggests. That is unnecessary for the following reasons. Regional assemblies are not currently subject to a statutory code of conduct, but two-thirds of members of the assemblies are already covered by a code of conduct as they are members of local authorities. That code applies to them when they act as representatives of their authority on other bodies such as the assemblies. In addition, I understand that the conduct of the remaining third of members who are not representatives of their local authorities are also subject to a code, as the assemblies have adopted their own voluntary codes of conduct that broadly reflect the terms of the model code for local authorities, although not on a statutory basis. I therefore hope that that overlapping system takes care of the noble Baroness’s anxieties. The noble Lord’s amendments explore a very interesting situation in relation to the LSPs, but it is interesting because of the nature of local authority partnerships as a whole and the interrelationship between the people who sit on those bodies and their respective responsibilities, because they sometimes wear two, three or even four hats. I have to give him the answer that he expected, which in essence is that LSPs are not legal bodies and so cannot be covered by the code in the same way. We cannot place a duty on an LSP for that reason. I dispute the assertion that there is a void. I spoke at some length a couple of days ago about how important the LSPs were, not least as bodies that formulate and articulate the local area agreements. They are incredibly important, but they are very variable. We cannot put such institutions under the code in the same way. Moreover, each public statutory partner to an LSP has its own structure and rules, and carries that code with it. As the noble Lord said, local authority members certainly would. Each organisation must therefore take measures to ensure that its LSP representatives act appropriately. The list of partner authorities in Clause 106 includes a number of bodies that are already covered by the code of conduct. It also includes persons and members of bodies, such as the chief of police and members of the local probation board, to whom it would be inappropriate to extend the local government code of conduct. However, I do find the noble Lord’s argument about the LSPs very interesting, and, although I cannot promise to do anything, I can promise to think about it and to discuss it and other issues to which it gives rise with the department.
- Time
- 12:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord GreavesLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- I am very grateful for that response, which is as good as I thought it would be. These amendments were tabled precisely to try to get people and the Government to think about it. On the point about the LSPs, it has come home to me only in the past fortnight while we have discussed this matter in Committee just how much of a legal limbo—I know that the Minister does not like that phrase—LSPs seem to find themselves in. It is absolutely true that they exercise their powers on behalf of their members, particularly the local authorities, but they are, as the Minister said, incredibly important bodies in regeneration and the whole partnership structure in an area that has now grown up. I am coming to the view that people should be thinking very seriously about their status and whether they should be put on a statutory footing. These bodies take decisions involving millions and millions of pounds—more in some areas—of investment. Should they really have this non-legal status? It is quite extraordinary how this has happened. However, that is a different matter and my amendments do not relate to it. I am very grateful that the Minister will think about this during her summer holidays, although I cannot promise her that I will. On that basis, I am quite happy. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment No. 235ZAA, as an amendment to Amendment No. 235A, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendment No. 235ZAB, as an amendment to Amendment No. 235A, not moved.]
- Time
- 12:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness Scott of Needham MarketLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her slight encouragement to my noble friend Lord Greaves. My noble friend and I were dealing with the same issue, although one of us at a very local sense and the other regional. In essence, as local authorities work in partnership with a wide variety of bodies, it is becoming increasingly obvious that having one set of processes governing the conduct of the elected members and another set governing the conduct of those who are not is becoming problematic. It seems to me that this can be approached in two ways. One either has a stringent code of conduct which applies to everyone or something approaching the situation described by the Minister for regional assemblies; that is, a voluntary code of conduct which everyone knows and understands. Certainly, from these Benches, that would be our preferred option. Local arrangements arrived at voluntarily by all the partners, and applicable to all the partners, would be a much better way forward. The real issue and the reason that we have tabled these amendments is to bring to the attention of the Government the fact that one set of rules applies to councillors, which contains fairly heavy sanctions, while those same rules do not apply to others. However, we will read carefully what the noble Baroness has said and will wait to hear the Government’s thinking on this. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
- Time
- 12:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness Scott of Needham MarketLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 235AA:
- Time
- 12:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord GreavesLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- Amendments Nos. 235AC and 237ZA are to probe the meaning of the model code of conduct and the advice given to councillors in relation to it. When the model code of conduct was first adopted—I think that it was originally in regulations in 2001—it was intended that local authorities could amend or add to it in their own circumstances. It appears that it has now become very much a code of conduct which you have to have and you modify or add to it at your peril. I have an interesting document, which everyone who has the privilege to be an elected councillor will have received recently, called The Code of Conduct—Guide for Members, issued in May 2007 by the Standards Board for England. The pamphlet explains the new model code for councillors. Page 4 of the introduction, “Adopting the Model Code of Conduct”, says: “It is also important that the Code of Conduct is adopted in its model form, without amendment. This will give certainty to members and the public as to what standards are expected. It will ensure consistency throughout local authorities, avoiding confusion for members on more than one authority and for the public. It will also minimise the legal risk of your authority adopting additional provisions which are unenforceable”. We appear to have a situation now where it is not a model code of conduct; it is virtually a statutory code of conduct or an instruction on what councils have to do. If they go beyond this, they do so at their own peril. I believe that this leads to confusion. My amendment probes how far the Standards Board for England is saying, “You adopt this, full stop”, on behalf of the Government and how much it has decided for itself.
- Time
- 12:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness AndrewsLabour
- Quote
- It is wonderful that so many noble Lords have joined us for this important discussion on the model code of conduct. I hope that I shall be swift in dealing with this. I can confirm that the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, is correct on the first amendment. As she suggested, this applies in the same way to appointed members. On the second group of amendments, I am afraid that the noble Lord has wrong-footed me because I did not expect him to come from that direction. One can never predict which direction he will come from. However, I shall say briefly what I intended to say. His amendment removes the remit of the code to include all behaviour in members’ private and official capacity, which is the substance of Clause 104 dealing with the remit of the principles and provisions of the model code. It follows from the judgment in 2006 in the appeal of the Mayor of London, which cast doubt on the ability of the code to cover the conduct of members in their private capacity. I am sure that we will come on to discuss those issues at a later stage. There are some interesting things that I want to say about that. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, raised the rigidity, or inflexibility, of the code. It is a statutory instrument which councils are required to observe. It is not easily extended. That can be done only by negative instrument. I suggest reading Hansard. I will come back to him on this point when we can have a discussion on the issues implied in his questions. Finally, Amendment No. 238ZAA also was in this group. Authorities which do not adopt a code of conduct, and whose members are subject to the model code of conduct issued by the Secretary of State, are required to include a copy of the model code as part of their constitution. Amendment No. 238ZAA would delete this provision, which would be unfortunate because it would reduce transparency and accountability. That is why we would have difficulty in accepting that amendment.
- Time
- 12:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord GreavesLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- I am sorry. I was confused with the groupings, largely because I was away yesterday. I deliberately did not speak to Amendment No. 238ZAA because I was advised by my noble friend that it is not in this group.
- Time
- 12:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness Scott of Needham MarketLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- No, it is not. I shall not keep the House in suspense any longer. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
- Time
- 12:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Baroness CrawleyLabour- Quote
- This may be a good moment to resume the House and I confirm that the Committee will begin again after the lunch adjournment. I beg to move that the House do now resume. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to. House resumed.
- Time
- 12:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗