Report stage in the Lords
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Baroness BarkerLiberal Democrat- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 26:
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Baroness Royall of BlaisdonLabour- Quote
- My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, for tabling such a sensible set of amendments. We agree with her that the regulation-making power that the amendment would introduce would give the flexibility to bring up to date the provisions about conflicts of interest for professionals concerned with applications, and to keep these provisions up to date in the light of future developments in service delivery. I hope that your Lordships will join me in supporting the amendment. On Question, amendment agreed to. [Amendment No. 27 not moved.]
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Lord Carlile of BerriewCrossbench- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 28:
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- My Lords, the noble Lord invites me to give a short response. I am afraid that we were not moved by the noble Lord’s eloquence in Committee or when he described himself as astonishingly and wretchedly depressed by my response, because there is legislative provision to achieve what he wants. However, I accept that behind his amendment is an issue about problems that the courts have had. That is down to good practice rather than legislative requirement. I understand some of the practical issues that face courts when dealing with the kind of problems that the noble Lord raised in Committee. My department and the Home Office commissioned a report on the state of court psychiatric schemes, which was published in September 2005. The report found that provision had grown up piecemeal. We need to do all that we can to even out that practice. Models of good practice in co-operation and commissioning are being identified and evaluated. A pilot has also been established based on a service level agreement for the provision of psychiatric reports to courts in the south-west. Evaluation of the pilot is due for completion in 2008 and will provide a good practice guide for other regions of the Courts Service. We are not complacent about the issues that the noble Lord raised. We believe that this is best done through best practice. A pilot is in place and we will use its results to spread good practice throughout the court system.
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- Lord Carlile of BerriewCrossbench
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- My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his very helpful response. As he realises, I am concerned about ensuring uniform good practice in courts. Delays with psychiatric reports are very much to the detriment of mentally disordered defendants and cause delays in courts, which these days—in the Crown Court at least—cost between £15,000 and £20,000 a day to run. I hope that the pilot will prove successful and that, if it is, it can be rolled out quickly throughout all the circuits so that these difficulties will no longer occur. Having regard to the Minister’s helpful assurance of progress, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendment No. 29 not moved.]
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Lord Hunt of Kings HeathLabour- Quote
- moved Amendments Nos. 30 and 31:
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Lord Williamson of HortonCrossbench- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 32:
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Baroness Howells of St DavidsLabour- Quote
- My Lords, when I proposed this amendment in Committee, I related to noble Lords the story of a young Asian girl. Today, I will not give any further case studies but, as I am sure noble Lords know, there are many more. The amendment would give children and young people under the age of 18 the right to receive counsel from an independent advocate when they are about to be, or have been, admitted for treatment for a mental health problem, whether the admission is voluntary or under compulsion. Independent advocacy for young people provides a safeguard against the improper use of powers to detain or treat them. All children and young people should have the right to know what will happen to them if they are admitted to an in-patient unit, what to expect on admission and when they might be discharged. With an advocate present, a young person can be sure that someone independent of their parents, carers or clinicians will communicate their interests and ensure their right of appeal. It is very difficult for children to overturn any parental responsibility. It requires a court order, so children who do not feel that their views are being heard by parents and staff might have to seek extreme measures in order to be heard, possibly compromising their own beliefs. I feel sure that the Government should look very carefully at the amendment and come back to the House with something that they may feel is more appropriate. However, we feel strongly that this amendment should receive the best care and attention from the Minister.
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Baroness WalmsleyLiberal Democrat- Quote
- My Lords, we on these Benches also support the amendment. The Minister will know that there are precedents for groups of people having a right to advocacy services. The Mental Capacity Act 2005 enshrines the right to advocacy for people lacking capacity through the independent mental capacity advocacy service, and the Adoption and Children Act 2002 gives young people looked after by the state the same right to advocacy. There are many reasons why a young person may need an independent person on whom they can rely to express their wishes to the appropriate authorities. I am particularly concerned about the right to education. The Children’s Commissioner report contains a case study about a young woman called Amber, who was not offered any education during her seven-month stay on an adult psychiatric ward, despite being 14 at the time of her admission. A child’s right to education and all the other rights are matters with which an advocate would be able to help them. An advocate could also ensure that children were properly informed, understood the treatment that was being made available to them, and many other matters. I support the noble Baroness, Lady Howells, on this.
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Lord RamsbothamCrossbench- Quote
- My Lords, this amendment has an application to those in custody and possibly to those who come into the criminal justice system during the period before custody.
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- Baroness Royall of BlaisdonLabour
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- My Lords, this amendment is intended to ensure that advocacy services are available to all patients with a mental disorder aged 18 years or under. We recognise that there are certain groups of patients who will receive particular benefit from advocacy services and we have noted the views of the Children’s Commissioner. The noble Lord, Lord Patel of Bradford, and my noble friend Lady Howells of St Davids brought to our attention in our debate in Committee the experience of people from black and minority-ethnic communities treated under the Mental Health Act. In particular, they stressed that: “Culturally competent advocacy can improve therapeutic alliances and find culturally, socially and racially responsive resolutions to conflict where it arises”.—[Official Report, 17/1/07; col. 691.] The noble Lords were, of course, absolutely right, in that properly trained, specialist advocacy can be of greater benefit to particular groups of patients than more generalised advocacy. The work that the Government have commissioned to develop training and standards for advocates, which is currently under way, is looking at the needs of particular groups from within the population of patients with mental disorder. In Committee, we said that we would consider the best way to make advocacy services available. I want to assure the House that we are making progress. I am unable to confirm how we will proceed, as we wish to continue with that work before the Government announce how they will take this issue forward. We have listened not only to the strength of feeling expressed by noble Lords in Committee but also to their comments about the need for a service that will take account of the differing needs of different groups of patients. The amendment would provide that all patients aged 18 years or under would have access to these services. The Act provides that a patient is any person suffering from a mental disorder or appearing to suffer from a mental disorder. That person need not be in hospital or under the supervision of a specialist doctor. There is a wide range of conditions and situations that fit into that definition. Of course, I do not wish to underestimate the significance of any person who is living with a mental health problem. However, I wonder whether this would provide for a service that would effectively target resources to those in need. I am aware that many younger child patients who are in hospital for their mental disorder are not subject to the Mental Health Act where their parents provide consent for their treatment, as my noble friend Lady Howells outlined. In considering the best way to provide for advocacy services, I well understand that it is important that this group must not be forgotten. As we said in Committee, we are considering the best way in which advocacy services can be made available, taking into account the differing needs of different groups of patients. We wish to see tailored advocacy services, which will bring the maximum benefit to all groups of patients, including children and young persons. We have not, however, been able to get provisions ready in time for Report stage. The Government will continue to develop their proposals on how patients with mental disorder who are subject to the Mental Health Act can access appropriate advocacy services and we will bring them back when the Bill is considered in the other place. Indeed, in considering this subject we would be very happy to discuss our proposals with noble Lords who are interested in doing so. We very much hope that they will help us on this. As such, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
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- Lord Williamson of HortonCrossbench
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- My Lords, I thank the Minister for that encouraging reply. I said at the beginning that this was a mini-amendment, and we always hope that the Government will make a mini-effort to accept it. We recognise, however, that the Government have gone quite a long way in following up their proposal at an earlier stage to consider the best ways to make advocacy services available. We note that their provisions are not yet ready for Report and that the Government expect to come forward with something to clarify their position when the Bill is in the other place. That is certainly encouraging for us. This has been a short debate, but I am sure that the Minister feels that there is a strong feeling that this would be valuable and that we could make progress and improve on it. We shall be following the debates in the other place with great care and we hope that something of value will come forward. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendment No. 33 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.]
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Baroness NeubergerCrossbench- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 33A:
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Lord Patel of BradfordNon-affiliated- Quote
- My Lords, I agree with the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Neuberger, and shall add a brief comment. As your Lordships are aware, the Joint Committee on Human Rights has warned that the Government’s proposals do not give adequate respect for the patient’s right to private and family life, saying that, “the Government is laying themselves open to future embarrassing litigation”. I shall be surprised if the Minister does not, finally, grasp at the solution being offered through this amendment. The law as it is, and as it will remain under the Government's proposals, leaves too much that is uncertain and too much to the discretion of individual social workers for an adequate protection of Article 8 rights. For example, even after being displaced by a county court, a nearest relative is deemed by case law to continue to retain—I quote from the 1995 ruling in Surrey County Council SSD v McMurray—a “legitimate interest” in a patient’s welfare, which, “should always be paid proper respect by the authorities in making decisions about and arrangements for the patient's care”. The law therefore suggests that, even after displacement, a nearest relative may continue to have some contact with professionals regarding a patient’s circumstances and decisions relating to his or her care. The only way in which an approved mental health practitioner could avoid a continuing breach of Article 8 in respect of a patient whose nearest relative has been displaced as unsuitable, would be to claim that such continued contact would be not “practicable”, relying on the definition of practicability given in the more recent 2005 Bristol City Council case referred to by the noble Baroness. To my mind, that places a burden on the social worker that should not in fact arise in any sensible legal structure. Furthermore, a displaced nearest relative continues to retain the ability, under Section 29(6) of the Mental Health Act, to apply to the mental health review tribunal annually on a patient’s behalf. As such, the proper answer to the Article 8 problems highlighted in past legal challenges is not to widen the criteria for displacement, but to enable patient choice to determine who the nearest relative is in the first place.
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- Baroness Royall of BlaisdonLabour
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- My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Barker and Lady Neuberger, for their work on Amendment No. 33A, which is a considered attempt to address the concerns that my noble friend Lord Hunt raised on the earlier amendment in Committee. They have made significant changes. However, while it addresses the issue of patients nominating totally inappropriate strangers as their nearest relative, it still suffers from the difficulties associated with patients having nomination rights over the person who can block their admission to hospital or discharge them from compulsion. In Committee, noble Lords made reference to the role of the “nominated person” that we proposed in the 2004 draft Bill. As your Lordships are aware, that Bill would have abolished the nearest relative, while the role of the nominated person, which it instituted, was entirely different to that of the nearest relative. The role of the nominated person was that of a patient representative, so it was right and proper that the person was chosen by the patient. In the debate, a number of noble Lords did not accept our concern that a patient nominee would act at the behest of the patient even where that might not be in line with what they themselves saw as the best interests of that patient. The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, asked why there was any more reason to believe that a person nominated by the patient would be more likely to act against the best interests of the patient than one nominated under any other system. We are not concerned that a person named by the patient is more likely to act wilfully against the best interests of the patient, but that a named person is more likely to act at the behest of the patient. We feel that a person named by the patient is likely to feel an obligation to act in the very way the patient requests. While this amendment restricts whom the patient can nominate as their nearest relative, the same concerns apply. The role of the nearest relative is not one based on acting in the name of the patient, but one that provides for nearest relatives to act in the way that they consider is right. The process of nomination can introduce an unhelpful and damaging dynamic into the relationship between the patient and the person who is to exercise the rights of the nearest relative. SANE has told us that, “because of the effects of their illness, some patients put considerable pressure on their nearest relative to stop them being taken to hospital or discharging them once they are there. The spouses, parents and caring relatives manage this as well as they can”. It goes on to say that it, “would be concerned if widening the scope of those who might be able to perform the functions of the nearest relative could have the effect of alienating family members caring day in and day out for relatives living with severe and enduring mental health problems—making family relationships at these difficult times even more fraught and fractured and possibly compromising the help on which the patient might need to rely in the long term”. That is not to say that SANE opposes the principle of patient choice. However, it believes that, “it is also important to protect the status of the nearest relative and distinguish it from that of other people and advocates”. We have made it clear that nearest relatives are not patient representatives, and their appointment should not be made in a way that can place further stress on family relationships at what may already be an extremely difficult time. Where detention is for the purposes of treatment, under Section 3 of the Act, the nearest relative is able to oppose the detention. Having decided to retain the general scheme of the current Act, rather than to replace it entirely, we do not wish to see an end to that important safeguard. Equally, we do not wish a nearest relative named by the patient to feel obliged to oppose detention because that is the wish of the patient who nominated him, and, should he fail to oppose that detention, to see the patient revoke his status as nearest relative only to choose another perhaps more compliant relative or carer who would order his discharge. Since we announced our changes we have had correspondence, some from a concerned nearest relative whose daughter has from time to time been detained. He reports that his daughter is often angry that he, as her nearest relative, does not use his powers to block her detention or to discharge her early. He was concerned that our amendments would mean that his daughter would be able to go to court to have him displaced as a nearest relative, because he would not act to discharge his daughter if he felt doing that was not in her best interests. We have reassured him on that point. Various points were made about the JCHR. In its fourth report of the 2006–07 Session it questioned whether the Government intended the word “suitable” to equate to abuse. That is not the case. The intention is that it will include, but not be so narrow as to be limited to, nearest relatives who have a history of abusing or potential to abuse the patient. Returning to the amendments, I believe that Amendment No. 33A would concern the father of the patient, to whom I referred, as well as many other conscientious and caring nearest relatives. We believe that the amendment may inadvertently undermine this safeguard, and has the potential to cause unwarranted problems in what are often, as your Lordships pointed out during Committee, complicated family dynamics. On Amendment No. 35, I recognise that the noble Baronesses, Lady Barker and Lady Neuberger, wish the nearest relative to have a say in vital decisions affecting the patient. That is understandable, and in principle we agree. However, Amendment No. 35 is not needed and could cause real practical problems. In Section 3 of the Mental Health Act 1983, there is a duty on what will be known as the AMHP to consult the nearest relative on application for admission for treatment, unless it is impracticable or would involve unreasonable delay. That enables the nearest relative to exercise his right to block the detention of the patient. The decision to place a patient on a CTO is quite different in nature to detention under Section 3; it is a treatment decision. The CTO is essentially an extension of compulsion and, importantly, lessens the restrictions imposed on the patient. The Act requires consultation with the nearest relative—and provides a power for the nearest relative to block detention—in decisions where the patient is facing greater restrictions to his liberty, not fewer. The requirement to consult the nearest relative when a CTO is made is not consistent with this. Paragraph 31 of Schedule 3 to the Bill amends Section 133 to ensure that the nearest relative is informed where a patient is placed on to a CTO, as must occur when a patient is discharged from detention. We therefore believe that no further requirement to consult the nearest relative is needed. Also, to impose a duty for the responsible clinician to consult is problematic without an associated power for the nearest relative to act should they disagree with the decision. What would happen if there were a disagreement between the nearest relative and the responsible clinician? This amendment gives no power for the nearest relative to act if such disagreement occurs. We are also concerned that it would not be right to involve a nearest relative in cases where the patient objects. To do so may give rise to a breach of the patient’s rights under Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights. Even if the nearest relative were a person named by the patient—as Amendment No. 33A proposes—it would not always be the case that the patient would want the nearest relative consulted when a community treatment order is being considered. This amendment does not provide for the patient to prevent this consultation. There is already a duty to inform the nearest relative when a CTO is made. We think the best way to address the question of consultation is via the code of practice, where it is possible to set out the circumstances where consultation should and should not take place. The draft illustrative code for England includes material to that effect; we can, of course, consider what else might be needed in due course and will listen to the views expressed by noble Lords. We consider that there is an important place for the proper representation of patients. There is a role for a person, or persons, of the patient’s choice to be able to put forward their views and advocate on the patient’s behalf, as I described in our last debate. We have provided guidance to practitioners in the draft illustrative code of practice on when carers and nearest relatives should be consulted, and the important role that they can play in a patient’s care and treatment. There will also be further opportunities for stakeholders’ views to be incorporated before the code is laid before Parliament. We do not believe that the amendments in question are the appropriate way of achieving effective patient representation, but that we already have the correct balance in the existing provisions for carers to be prioritised when determining the nearest relative. I therefore ask that the noble Baroness considers withdrawing her amendment.
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- Baroness NeubergerCrossbench
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- My Lords, I thank the Minister for her response. She will hardly be surprised to hear that I am slightly disappointed. We accept part of what she said, particularly her fair point on Amendment No. 35 about the nearest relative not being able to act on the CTO, which is something that we will take back and look at. However, we are not convinced by the rest of the argument. This is a point that goes back to Committee. We are not convinced of the real difference between mental illness and physical illness or that one does not let a person make even limited choices about who can act as nearest relative on his behalf. We listened to what the Government had to say and limited the list concerned. We believe that there is enough differentiation in the system between people with physical and mental illnesses. We think that this is a difference too far, and that it is unnecessarily restrictive. We will take this away and look at it closely, and we will probably come back at Third Reading. Having made clear that we are not as yet content, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 26 [Community treatment orders, etc]:
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Earl HoweConservative- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 33B:
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- Lord Carlile of BerriewCrossbench
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- My Lords, we support the amendments moved by the noble Earl for the reasons that he has given. I simply want to remind the House of Chapter 5 of the report of the joint scrutiny committee. We heard a great deal of evidence about community treatment orders. As paragraph 205 of Volume 1 of our report records, on balance, we came down in favour of limited compulsion in the community. We heard a great deal of evidence from both home and abroad, and we invite the Government to take the view that the amendments provide an appropriate restriction on a power which, we on the committee fear, might become overused as a substitute for residential compulsory treatment.
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Lord AlderdiceLiberal Democrat- Quote
- My Lords, I want briefly to appeal to the Minister and the House to recognise that these are complex disorders and situations. It is a fantasy to believe that the first time that a psychiatrist meets such a patient they will know precisely what is the diagnosis; that, even if they do, they will know what is the best treatment; and, even more contentiously, that they will be clear about the prognosis. To believe otherwise is to be in cloud-cuckoo-land. These are complex, difficult disorders. Until one sees how they work out in practice—whether patients relapse; whether particular treatments work; whether compulsion, inpatient or outpatient treatment works best—other than from the experience of working with the patient, one cannot know. To embark on compulsion from an early stage is, at best, unwise and, at worst, professionally irresponsible.
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Baroness MurphyCrossbench- Quote
- My Lords, I am very disappointed overall. Although I have moved a long way personally in my response to the Government's proposals—I no longer oppose them fully—we do not even have agreement to the constraints that would restrict community treatment orders to the very group that the Government have said they want to be subject to the orders. I remain very concerned that a young person who has a first breakdown—20 per cent will never have a relapse—may be placed on an order, come into hospital and remain on an order at intermittent review, without ever having had the opportunity to demonstrate their non-compliance with the medication. At the very minimum, we should have some restriction that enables that person to demonstrate that they can build a relationship and become engaged in treatment. As the legislation stands, that may not be possible. What signal does that send to young people in the community, the very ones whom we want to encourage into treatment at the first symptoms of their illness? I strongly support the amendments to constrain the orders and still believe that we would catch under the order the very people whom we would like to engage in treatment for longer.
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- Lord Hunt of Kings HeathLabour
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- My Lords, this has been a short, although, if I may say so, sober debate on supervised community treatment, which is one of the pillars of the legislation. We had a good debate on the principles of supervised community treatment in Committee. Although noble Lords opposite and those on the Cross Benches have concerns about supervised community treatment, they have also made clear—the noble Earl, Lord Howe, certainly, did—that supervised community treatment is not opposed outright. However, there is clearly a big gap between the Government and other noble Lords on the benefits that we believe supervised community treatment will bring and on other views. For instance, the noble Earl, Lord Howe, talked about the coercive element of supervised community treatment undermining confidence and trust and referred to the positive nature of assertive outreach work. He suggested that that might be undermined by the use of supervised community treatment. Clearly, the Government disagree. We think that supervised community treatment is complementary to the progressive work being done in the development of mental health services. I reiterate the comment that I made in Committee, which the noble Lord read back, that if supervised community treatment can be provided as an alternative to compulsory treatment in hospital, surely that must be to the advantage of many patients.
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Baroness MeacherCrossbench- Quote
- My Lords, does the Minister accept that a consultant psychiatrist has had 13 years of training to create the tools for him to make these very difficult judgments? When he mentions other professionals and training, I think that we are probably assuming that he means perhaps days or weeks of training. Does he really think that, in the case of someone suffering from a psychotic illness, anyone other than a psychiatrist, who has had the many, many years of training and experience that I mentioned, can develop the expertise to make these judgments to impose on the individual, possibly for very long periods, a requirement to take medications that that clinician will not understand and the side effects of which that clinician will not understand? Does it not seem incongruous to the Minister to have people taking decisions that they simply do not have the competence to take?
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- Lord Hunt of Kings HeathLabour
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- My Lords, I simply do not recognise the possibility that the noble Baroness describes. She referred, for instance, to a few weeks’ training. Let me disabuse her of that notion immediately. We are talking about people who have been senior professionals in their particular field for a considerable number of years; I do not want to specify the exact number. That is the point of directions, which will have the force of law. These issues are being, and will be, agreed with stakeholders, including the Royal College of Psychiatrists.
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- Baroness MeacherCrossbench
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- My Lords, of course other professionals may have had several years of training in their professions to develop the tools to enable them to undertake their professional duties. However, those professionals will be experts on behavioural therapy and all sorts of other things, but they will not be experts on the treatments that are required by psychotic patients. That is the concern. I think that many of us in this House will be very happy for, say, a psychologist to be responsible for making a community treatment order for someone with a personality disorder once the assessment has been made of that person to ensure that that disorder was not in some way complicated by a psychotic disorder. My concern is that there is no indication in the Bill that people with a psychotic disorder should be put under a community treatment order only by someone who understands the full implications of that decision and the treatment to which that person will be subjected.
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- Lord Hunt of Kings HeathLabour
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- My Lords, the problem with the route that the noble Baroness is taking is that if a responsible clinician, subject to approval by the approved mental health practitioner, cannot take certain decisions in relation to a community treatment order, you undermine the role of that clinician. I do not want to be pushed into a corner and give a definite statement in response to an instance that she has given, but my general understanding is that, in the kind of situations that she has described, a consultant psychiatrist is the most likely responsible clinician. My problem with the amendment is that it is saying in essence that the responsible clinician cannot in the end accept responsibility. I have received a number of comments from bodies such as the British Psychological Society and the Royal College of Nursing, as well as from a consultant psychiatrist, expressing concern that, however much the amendment as proposed is well intentioned, its ultimate impact will be to undermine the whole concept of the responsible clinician who in the end has to accept responsibility.
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- Lord AlderdiceLiberal Democrat
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- My Lords, I want to draw two issues to the Minister’s attention. First, it is not possible for the responsible clinician to take responsibility for a medication unless they are qualified to prescribe it. Secondly, the person who is responsible for prescribing a medication may be in the position of having to continue to prescribe it within a context that they do not agree with, because it is required only that there be a consultation. We all know from years of working with Governments how much consultation can sometimes mean in terms of real decision-making. Therefore, the medical practitioner will be in the position either of having to continue prescribing a medication within a context that they do not agree with or of stopping it. The medication could not then be prescribed by the responsible clinician if he is not a medical practitioner because he would not be legally empowered to do so.
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- Lord Hunt of Kings HeathLabour
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- My Lords, I made it clear early on that, when a doctor prescribes a medication, that is clearly the result of the medical judgment of that doctor. I reiterate that. On coercion, I should have thought that any doctor who was so coerced would be acting against all the principles that the medical profession holds dear. I just do not see that happening. The point that I sought to make is that, if we are establishing responsible clinicians in this Bill, we accept that, while in some cases they may not be medical doctors, in the main they probably will be. Given that, by agreeing to the amendment proposed by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, where the approval of the medical practitioner is needed, we would undermine the role of the responsible clinician. It may be that because of their concerns in this area, noble Lords wish to do that. All that I am seeking to do is again to draw a distinction between the role of the responsible clinician and that of the medical practitioner in the decision—
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Lord SoleyLabour- Quote
- My Lords, will my noble friend give way, because I am becoming increasingly confused about this? It has always been my understanding, and I do not see anything in the Bill to change it, that if a person is to be treated with a drug therapy to deal with a psychosis, for example, it has to be prescribed by a doctor. It cannot be prescribed otherwise—end of argument and full stop. On the other hand, in the case of a personality disorder that does not usually require drug treatment, the patient might require treatments using other skills and abilities that also often require lengthy periods of training. In those circumstances, a person with medical qualifications is not necessarily the right individual to make the approach. Therefore, there always has to be a team approach, because ultimately both groups will be involved. However, it is and always has been absolutely clear—and would be even if this Bill had not been brought forward—that a person cannot prescribe a drug therapy unless they are medically qualified.
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- Lord Hunt of Kings HeathLabour
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- My Lords, that is a helpful intervention. My noble friend is right: nothing in the Bill requires a professional to act beyond their professional competence. A professional will not be able to make decisions about medication unless they are qualified to do so. I shall carry on in order to refer to two other aspects of the amendment. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, referred to concerns that, in effect, clinicians will be forced to err on the side of caution and make a patient subject to a CTO on discharge from hospital simply to cover their backs. With respect, if a responsible clinician is considering supervised community treatment, they must make the decision with reference to the criteria in the Bill and the guidance that we will provide on the application of those criteria. We have debated before the issue of trust in professionals when exercising their judgment to do so fairly, so surely it is right to expect responsible clinicians to exercise their judgment on the application of the criteria. We need to be very careful before we accept this caricature of how a supervised community treatment order might work in practice. I understand the points made by the noble Earl about aftercare—ACUS, as it is known—and his argument that this ought to be retained as a way in which supervised aftercare could be provided. However, the problems are twofold. First, it is clear that it has not been used because neither professionals nor patients have much confidence in it. We have evidence that it has not worked well. A study commissioned by my department in 2001 found that take-up was low, largely because it was seen as bureaucratic and lacking in the necessary powers. For instance, there are no powers to recall a patient to hospital for treatment. I also say to the noble Earl—and here I go back to our previous debate where clarity has been called for, particularly for the professionals who are going to have to operate the legislation—that to have two different systems for the management of mental disorder in the community would make it more difficult and confusing to clinicians in deciding which system is more appropriate for their patients. I fully accept that supervised community treatment is a compulsory regime and should not be taken lightly. I believe that the stringent criteria set out in the Bill and the safeguards built into supervised community treatment, along with the judgment of professionals, albeit guided by the code of practice, will ensure that the clear advantages offered by supervised community treatment will bring very worthwhile benefits to many patients now being detained in our hospitals. I therefore urge the noble Earl to reconsider his view.
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- Earl HoweConservative
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- My Lords, I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate and to the Minister for his reply. He is of the view that we have here a set of provisions that provide an appropriate gateway into compulsory community treatment. My belief is that the gateway is too wide, and that is the reason for these amendments. Underlying that division of view between us is a philosophical divide. If I had to be brutal about the Government’s position on this issue, as indeed on other issues in the Bill, I would say that it rests on a profoundly paternalistic attitude to mental health patients. It is an attitude that accepts only grudgingly that the autonomy and decision-making ability of those with a mental illness matter at all and which would actually much prefer these people to jolly well accept what is good for them whether they like it or not.
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- Lord Hunt of Kings HeathLabour
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- My Lords, I apologise for intervening because I know that the House wants to reach a decision, but I just want to say that that is not the Government’s view. Ours is not a paternalistic approach. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, ignores the fact that the patients to whom these provisions will apply are those who have already been detained under the provisions of the Mental Health Act. Supervised community treatment, far from being paternalistic, will offer a number of patients a greatly enhanced process over simply continuing to be detained in hospital.
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- Earl HoweConservative
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- My Lords, I understand the Minister’s view on this issue. The fact is that we do not know how many patients will benefit from being on a CTO because the evidence, as I said, is simply not there, despite all that the Minister said. The evidence that we have is inconclusive, in that all the studies in this area have been unable to tell whether any beneficial effects of CTOs are due to the compulsory nature of the order or to the increased community services that are made available alongside the order. If enhanced community services support better outcomes on a voluntary basis, as we know they do, the addition of a compulsory order is likely to make no positive difference to those outcomes; indeed, it may detract from them because of the element of coercion. It is not often that I pray in aid the noble Lord, Lord Warner, but it was he who emphasised in Committee that it is the so-called “revolving door” patients whom these provisions are designed to help. That is why the amendment proposes that only those patients who fall into the “revolving door” category are covered by the SCT provisions. The noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, told us succinctly the dangers of having a wider gateway. In response to the exchanges about the medical practitioner being involved, these amendments propose that, before a person is put on to a CTO, two professionals have to agree that that is clinically appropriate. That is all it amounts to. On an issue of this kind, it is right for me to test the opinion of the House, and I beg leave to do so.
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- Earl HoweConservative
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- moved Amendment No. 36A:
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- Earl HoweConservative
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- moved Amendment No. 39:
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- Lord Carlile of BerriewCrossbench
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- My Lords, I support these amendments for all the reasons which have been so cogently expanded by the noble Earl. I just want to emphasise one part of what he said; namely, the legal issue which it seems to me arises if there is not a remedy before the mental health review tribunal. The analogy with the Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005 is good. It was recognised when control orders were introduced that it was essential that a due process be provided; that is, a judicial procedure which would be regarded as a remedy under Article 13 of the convention. That due process has been found to be useful. There have been cases—for example, R v E, in which judgment was received in the past few days—in which the judge reviewing the control order conditions declared that some of them were unlawful and therefore invalid, and a new control order had to be issued. If the Government do not include the power to go to the mental health review tribunal for a review of community treatment order conditions, what will follow is inevitable. Someone, or a group of people, whose conditions are fairly stringent will apply to the High Court for judicial review on the grounds that they are disproportionate. That will result in an expensive and time-consuming set of litigation, which will eventually lead us to the conclusion that the Act is insufficient in the remedy it provides. It is far better to deal with that now than after a war of attrition through the courts.
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- Lord Hunt of Kings HeathLabour
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- My Lords, obviously these amendments reflect concerns raised in Committee and at Second Reading. The short-term phrase “psychiatric ASBOs” has been used, which we refute. I have concerns about the impact that the amendments would have and want to make it clear that the conditions attached to a community treatment order set a framework for the patient’s life in the community. One is not being defensive about this—that is what they are there to do. They make clear what the patient needs to do or not in order to manage his or her mental disorder and to remain stable. As noble Lords have suggested, they will be greatly dependent on the professional views of the responsible clinician and the improved mental health practitioner because the conditions must relate to the patient’s mental disorder and its management. They must also be acceptable—even if not agreeable—to the patient at the outset. Inevitably, the establishment of the community treatment order will take place after discussion between the patient concerned and the clinician. It is hardly likely to work if the patient is not in a position to take advantage of the community treatment order. If the patient does not agree at least to try to keep to the conditions, what are the chances that supervised community treatment would succeed in the first place? As set out, the conditions say that they may be specified. They are merely examples, which will not be appropriate for every case. They are not enforceable, with the exception of, “a condition that the patient make himself available for examination”. That is not their purpose. We do not propose to recall a patient to hospital merely because he has failed to comply with a condition. Of course, a failure to comply is a signal that something may be going wrong and, depending on the patient’s medical condition, recall to hospital may be necessary, but that will depend on the patient’s individual circumstances and is not automatic. I stress that, just as the conditions in general are not mandatory, the fifth condition is likely to be appropriate for only a minority of patients. It is there for consideration where it is directly relevant to the patient’s mental disorder and will contribute to the success of the patient’s community treatment. If abstaining from a particular kind of conduct would help a patient to remain stable and if making it a condition of a community treatment order makes that abstention more achievable, the patient and others will benefit. It would be unacceptable to impose such a condition for any other reason, which will be made clear in the code of practice. Two professionals will be involved when a community treatment order is made; namely, the responsible clinician and the approved mental health practitioner, who must both agree to all the conditions before they can be set. That should surely ensure that there will not be arbitrary conditions imposed which cannot be justified. I was asked about examples: in Committee, I quoted an example in which a patient was thought to be illegally taking drugs or consuming alcohol to adverse limits. That could impact on the overall treatment and condition of the patient and, in certain circumstances, it may be appropriate to lay such a condition. If noble Lords accept that, I know that they would then wish to bring the tribunal into play. We do not agree that that is the way forward. The tribunal of course is an independent judicial body, which considers the justification for a person’s continuing detention, guardianship or compulsory treatment order under the Act. But referring the issue to a tribunal would be to ask the tribunal to substitute its judgment about the best way to treat a patient for that of the professional, or professionals, responsible. We do not agree that that is a relevant decision for the tribunal. It is interesting that the amendment does not propose that the tribunal set new conditions to substitute for those that the responsible clinician has sought to place in the case of a particular patient. We also think that these amendments might impose extra and unnecessary burdens on the tribunal, and extra bureaucracy on the tribunal and the responsible clinician. I stress again that, ultimately, the conditions laid out in new Section 17B “may” be specified, save for the condition, “that the patient make himself available for examination”. A failure to observe one of those conditions would not lead to the—
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- Lord Carlile of BerriewCrossbench
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- My Lords, let us suppose that one of the conditions under new Section 17B(3)(e) is that a person remains in their home from six o’clock in the evening until seven o’clock the following morning—the purpose being to prevent them from going out drinking, taking drugs or both. If the patient wishes to challenge that on the grounds that it is a disproportionate curfew in effect, which is exactly what has been done in the control order cases, what remedy would he have? What advice would the Government give to such a patient on how to proceed to have that condition rescinded on the grounds that it was disproportionate?
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- Lord Hunt of Kings HeathLabour
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- My Lords, these are all hypothetical examples, but my assumption in that circumstance would be that discussion would have taken place between the patient and the clinical team, including the responsible clinician and the approved mental health practitioner. If it becomes clear that the patient would find that unacceptable and is unlikely to abide by it, that would call into question the decision that a community treatment order would be suitable in that patient’s concern. That is the best answer I can give the noble Lord on that. We do not think that the kind of formality that is being proposed here, with the involvement of the tribunal, is the way forward. We believe that the way in which the provision is set out, whereby conditions may be satisfied, is a proportionate approach. I hope that the noble Earl on that basis will consider withdrawing his amendment.
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- Earl HoweConservative
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- My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his reply, although it was disappointing. My fear here is that the Government are in danger of entering a minefield, if they ignore the human rights traps which they have set themselves. We would do well to listen to the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, whose expertise on these issues is undoubted—and I am sorry that the Minister is unable to appreciate the risks that I see in having an open-ended provision for conditions to be attached without qualification. For the reasons I stated, I believe that that could lead to some very unfair situations arising. I am extremely torn as to what to do, but I believe that the issue is sufficiently important for me to invite the House to give its opinion.
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- Earl HoweConservative
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- moved Amendment No. 44:
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- Lord Hunt of Kings HeathLabour
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- My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, for his amendment, which seeks to set a time limit on the duration of a community treatment order. He is right to say that the Bill provides that a CTO can last six months initially, can be extended for a further six months, then for a further year and so on. I hope that I can reassure noble Lords about the possibility that patients will never get off supervised community treatment and can remain on community treatment orders indefinitely. I very much hope, as do the Government, that community treatment orders and supervised community treatment will enable many patients to be discharged as quickly as possible. The very basis of supervised community treatment can be seen as a positive move towards helping patients who originally met the criteria but, because of the impact of supervised community treatment, will no longer meet them and can be discharged completely. There is a clear, laid-down process for extending a community treatment order, which requires examination of the patient and a report to the hospital managers. There are safeguards in place for the patient. I understand the lobster pot analogy used by Professor Richardson, concerning patients who would find it very hard to get out of non-resident treatment. I share the view, as I have already implied, that supervised community treatment should not last indefinitely, but I am not convinced that the amendment is the right way to go about it. Any time limit that we might set is inevitably arbitrary. The noble Earl might have chosen two years or four years; it takes no account of any individual circumstances or of the patient’s clinical condition. I suggest to the noble Earl that there is the danger of a “cliff-edge” approach, and the cut-off date might create that. It might leave the responsible clinician in a situation of a perverse incentive, where a patient would have to be discharged on a certain date, irrespective of their clinical need or whether they are able to manage in the community without the support that the community treatment order provides. Mental health practitioners might be in a very difficult position if they had to stand by knowing that a patient was likely to relapse and the only action that they could take if they were not prepared to, or it would not be right to, take the risk of discharging the patient would be to apply to detain the patient once more and the patient would have to come back into hospital. I understand what the noble Earl is seeking to do here, but there is a risk that by putting three years into legislation it could work the other way. It might be perceived as the norm, and there might be an expectation that patients remain on supervised community treatment until their three years are up. We believe that the construct of the Bill, with the safeguards, when the question of renewing the community treatment order is being considered, is the best way to deal with the issue rather than having an arbitrary time limit. Noble Lords should remember that a responsible clinician can discharge a patient at any time, and they must do so if the patient no longer meets the criteria for supervised community treatment as laid out in the Bill. That question has to be explicitly reviewed every time an extension of the community treatment order is considered. The patient can also apply to the tribunal for discharge as soon as a supervised community treatment order begins, once during each period for which the CTO is extended, and again if the CTO is revoked. In conclusion, although I fully understand what the noble Earl, Lord Howe, seeks to do, the conditions and safeguards in the Bill serve the purpose better than a time limit, which, of necessity, is bound to be arbitrary.
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- Earl HoweConservative
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- My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply and take note of his comments. He described the amendment as a “cliff edge approach”. I do not share that analysis. The amendment would certainly not oblige a clinician to discharge a patient. The point is that it would leave open the option of a fresh assessment for the patient. In my view, that is only fair to the patient if, after three years, his condition has shown insufficient signs of improvement. We are seeking to avoid a situation where too few questions are asked. Once someone is on a CTO, it is very easy for a clinician to renew it with insufficient thought about whether it is the right thing to do therapeutically. Nevertheless, there is not going to be agreement between me and the Minister on this. It perhaps needs to be tested in the field before we see whether an open-ended arrangement is sensible and right. Noting the Minister’s objections, and with my own reservations and doubts on the record, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
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- moved Amendment No. 45A:
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- Earl HoweConservative
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- moved Amendments Nos. 46A and 47:
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- Lord Patel of BradfordNon-affiliated
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- moved Amendment No. 51:
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- Baroness Royall of BlaisdonLabour
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- My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Patel, argued as persuasively for this amendment today as he did in Committee for a slightly different amendment. However, he will be glad to hear that we have some sympathy with the amendment, although there are a couple of important things to bear in mind. First, as the noble Lord noted, there is current work to establish a new single regulator in England replacing the Mental Health Act Commission, the Healthcare Commission and the Commission for Social Care Inspection. We argue that the issue in the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Patel, sits comfortably with that work and will be considered as part of the creation of the new regulator during 2008. Secondly, the amendment may cut across monitoring proposals for the Bournewood safeguards. The statement of intent that we have published outlines how the monitoring function will be conferred on the three existing inspectorates in England, including the Mental Health Act Commission. After the establishment of the new single regulator, the function would transfer to that body. We would not wish to establish powers that might not dovetail with that. The amendment is unnecessary because provision to achieve the intention behind it is already contained in the Mental Health Act 1983. The Act gives the Secretary of State and the National Assembly for Wales a duty to keep under review the powers and duties relating to detained patients and directs her to delegate that duty to the Mental Health Act Commission. Section 121(4) allows the Secretary of State, following a request from or after consultation with the commission, and after any other consultation that she sees fit, to direct the commission to keep under review the care and treatment of any patients not liable to be detained. However, I can give noble Lords a commitment that we will explore making a direction under Section 121(4). This will be no quick fix, because we are required to carry out a consultation and we would need to have discussions with colleagues in the Welsh Assembly Government to explore the options available there. Any future work in respect of Wales, including a formal consultation, would of course require the agreement of Welsh Ministers. However, on that basis and with that firm commitment, I invite the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
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Lord PatelCrossbench- Quote
- My Lords, on a pleasant note, I thank the Minister for agreeing to look at this further and for recognising that we can address these issues using the existing powers of the 1983 Act. She will be aware that the Mental Health Act Commission has submitted a formal request for existing powers to be used to put a stop to the arbitrary limitations in relation to its inability to address de facto detained patients. I am keen to work with the Government and I await their response to the request that we have already submitted. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendments Nos. 52 and 53 not moved.]
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- Baroness Royall of BlaisdonLabour
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- moved Amendment No. 54:
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- Earl HoweConservative
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- My Lords, my noble friend Lady Carnegy, who unfortunately cannot be here, has asked me to express her thanks to the Minister for the letter that she kindly wrote on 11 January in response to a point made on these issues by my noble friend on 10 January. My noble friend has, however, asked me to put a question. Let us suppose that a patient is detained north of the Border under Scottish law and a proposal is made for that patient to be transferred nearer to his or her family south of the Border. My noble friend’s fear is that, unless the basis on which the patient is detained in Scotland accords with English law, it will not be possible to transfer that patient because, were they to be transferred south of the Border, they would have to be released, which would not of course be satisfactory. Does not a practical problem arise out of the disparity between Scottish law and the Bill?
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- Baroness Royall of BlaisdonLabour
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- My Lords, there is the potential in theory for a patient to meet the criteria for compulsion in one country and not another. In practice, however, that is very unlikely to arise. Prior to any transfer taking place, there will be discussions between the hospital where the patient is being treated and the hospital to which they wish to transfer. It would be questionable whether, as a matter of law, the managers of a hospital in any jurisdiction could agree to accept, as a detained patient, a person who they may have reason to think would not meet the criteria for detention. I trust that that clarifies the position for the noble Earl. On Question, amendment agreed to.
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- Lord Hunt of Kings HeathLabour
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- My Lords, I beg to move that further consideration on Report be now adjourned. In moving the Motion, I suggest that Report stage begin again not before 8.31 pm. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
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