Report stage in the Lords
- Speaker
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Constitutional Affairs (Baroness Ashton of Upholland)Labour- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 1:
- Time
- 15:06
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord Carlile of BerriewCrossbench- Quote
- My Lords, in the absence of my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford, who is in sunnier climes—although, I hasten to say, working very hard—I thank the Minister for the important concession made in these amendments. The specificity of the public interest within the statute is, in our view, a matter of considerable importance, and it is of course of paramount importance that the Government have accepted that. So we support the amendments.
- Time
- 15:06
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness Ashton of UphollandLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. I always like to try to begin on a high however much the noble Lord may fear that I will descend to a low from his perspective. With regard to the public interest, I do not think that there has ever been anything much between us on the issues, which we will find as we go through the Report stage; it is a question of how to achieve them. I listened with great care to the need to stamp the question of public interest further in the Bill. There was never a desire on my part not to recognise it. We have found a way through and I am grateful for the support. On Question, amendment agreed to. [Amendment No. 2 not moved.]
- Time
- 15:06
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord Campbell of AllowayConservative- Quote
- My Lords, briefly, I support the amendment. It is a requisite for the reasons given by my noble friend Lord Kingsland, but it is more than that. It is a form of consolidation between old Amendments Nos. 1 and 2, in which there was an element of division. For various reasons which I shall not repeat, I went for old Amendment No. 1 but my noble and learned friend Lord Lyell of Markyate went for old Amendment No. 2. In effect, the amendment removes any form of discrepancy in the drafting, achieving a result which ought to be accepted by the House for the reasons given by my noble friend.
- Time
- 15:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord Maclennan of RogartLiberal Democrat- Quote
- My Lords, briefly, I support this amendment for the reasons I set out in Committee. The Minister was then good enough to say that she did not disagree with what I was saying. That led me to think that she would in due course consider what had been said and that there would be a positive response. I hope that that will be forthcoming.
- Time
- 15:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness Ashton of UphollandLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, agreeing with what the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan of Rogart, says is something I always try to do, not least because he offers a great deal of sense in our debates, along with other noble Lords who have spoken. That does not necessarily mean, however, that I feel the need to amend the Bill; rather, as you would expect, it means that I would take it away and consider whether we ought to do more. David Clementi was clear that you should not try to rank the regulatory objectives in the Bill, prioritising some over others, because that could create difficulties. Rather, he said, it was for the regulatory body to determine what weight to give at various points, depending on the issue before it. The Government have taken that approach, in line with what he said. He concluded that, “it should be for the Regulator, operating a risk based approach to regulation, to judge the relative importance of each consideration on a case by case basis”. We have consistently said that, and have acted upon the Joint Committee’s recommendation that the Explanatory Notes should make it explicit that the objectives are not listed in order of importance. We took it on board and dealt with it as appropriately as we could. Effective competition is an important part of ensuring that good services are provided. The briefing given out by Which? quotes something from the Financial Times which struck me as I read it over the weekend—that: “Competition delivers results in ways that government bureaucrats”, which I guess includes me, “cannot anticipate. Consumers can expect more choice, innovative services and lower prices”. Those are important aspects of the provision of good, high-quality services. They may not be of a higher importance than the other objectives in all circumstances, but they are none the less important in certain circumstances. Therefore, we have deliberately not ranked the objectives, but left it for the regulatory body, which we think is the right place, to determine in the specific circumstances we are dealing with what weight to give—as the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, said, the appropriate weight. That is why I resist the amendment. As regards the difference between what happens in the later clauses—I think the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, mentioned Clause 55—in terms of the anti-competitive role of the Office of Fair Trading and what is going on in the earlier clauses, Clause 1 applies to services provided by authorised persons, and Clauses 3 and 27 require the board and approved regulators to apply these objectives. Any rule maintained by an authorised body which restricts competition can be duly struck down by the board. It can do so following advice from the OFT under Clause 56. Clause 1, in particular, ensures that competition is understood by authorised persons and that they operate bearing in mind competition. Regulatory bodies and the role of regulation with the OFT comes in later clauses. In drawing up the clauses we consulted the OFT, of course. If all else fails, I can rely on the fact that the Office of Fair Trading is comfortable and happy that we have dealt with these issues appropriately by giving it a clear role in terms of the legislation while seeking to promote competition where appropriate, for the reasons that it has outlined of the potential benefit to the public in general and, obviously, consumers of legal services in particular.
- Time
- 15:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Campbell of AllowayConservative
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 4:
- Time
- 15:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord Hunt of WirralConservative- Quote
- My Lords, I declare my interest as a partner in the national commercial law firm, Beachcroft LLP, the holder of a current practising certificate from the Law Society as a solicitor and the other entries in the register. I thank my noble friend for raising the very important issue of quality. Indeed, Sir David Clementi raised this factor right at the outset in his review of the legal profession when he said that the services must remain of the highest possible quality. I agree with my noble friend Lord Kingsland that Clause 1 is beginning to take shape. It is a considerable improvement on the original Clause 1, and I am very grateful to the Minister for the way in which she has accepted a number of suggestions made by the Joint Select Committee, which I had the honour to chair. However, there is still this nagging doubt about quality. We will, of course, deal with this issue when we discuss some of the later amendments, but we look to the Minister for some reassuring words about the quality of legal services and the standing of the legal profession, so I support the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Campbell of Alloway.
- Time
- 15:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness Ashton of UphollandLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, we completely agree about the principle: the question is whether doing what the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, has asked would achieve it or enhance what we believe is already in the Bill. However, let me begin with the principle. I agree completely with what the noble Lords, Lord Campbell of Alloway and Lord Hunt of Wirral, said about the standing of the legal profession and the quality of legal services. I have the good fortune, as noble Lords know, of doing work for the department on trade. Indeed, I hope to be in India next week to talk to lawyers all over India about the opportunities that we see between us for the legal professions. I have also had the benefit of receiving delegations from other countries. As noble Lords know, I sit again on the European Union’s Justice and Home Affairs Council in Luxembourg on Thursday. I am therefore absolutely alive to the standing of the legal profession across Europe and the world, and I yield to no one in my recognition, support and promotion of it; so I am absolutely at one with noble Lords—the warm glow is absolutely between us. It is critical that the public, the consumer and the legal profession have a confidence in this new regime that is enhanced all the time and that we set up the new regime properly and appropriately. That has been a key part of all the amendments moved by noble Lords, who have sought at least reassurance if not changes to the legislation; so there is nothing between us on that. I have considered very carefully what the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, would do. My difficulty is that we think that our objectives already cover what they propose. We have support for the constitutional principle of the rule of law, the encouragement of an independent, strong, diverse and effective legal profession, and promoting and maintaining adherence to the professional principles, which include acting with independence and integrity and maintaining proper standards of work. Clause 4 also states: “The Board must assist in the maintenance and development of standards in relation to … the regulation … education and training of persons so authorised”. That captures, perhaps in more detail, how we can achieve what the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, seeks to do. I therefore hope that he feels reassured that I recognise the objective of his amendment, that I have looked carefully to see that we have achieved it, and that I completely and publicly endorse all the statements that have been made about the critical nature of the standing and quality of legal services. Indeed, I pay tribute to all those who currently deliver them.
- Time
- 15:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Campbell of AllowayConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, I am, as always, grateful to the Minister, who speaks with an open mind. I address her with an open mind, and I shall look very carefully at what she has said. However, this is a question of principle of generic application to all three regulatory bodies set up by statute, not just to the board. The Minister may reject that point if she does not like it, but I ask her to consider it. I also ask her with respect to consider whether, from a practical point of view, this should be in Part 1, Clause 1 and not tucked away in a series of provisions that are complex and not so readily understood. This principle should apply generically and, as I see it, should be in Clause 1. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
- Time
- 15:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Campbell of AllowayConservative
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 5:
- Time
- 15:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Hunt of WirralConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, I rise to support my noble friend Lord Campbell and to thank him for drawing to my attention the important decision of the Court of Appeal made on 21 February last. Having looked through the decision, I hope that the noble Baroness might also read it because my noble friend has highlighted an important point, one that has been reinforced by my noble friend Lord Kingsland. We hope that we shall be given some reassurance on how the Government intend to take this forward.
- Time
- 15:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Maclennan of RogartLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, for his amendment. I commend what he and others have said in this short debate about the importance of giving notice to those to whom the decisions on regulatory objectives should have been addressed. That is almost a principle of natural justice and it should be spelled out clearly. I have no doubt that the Government may consider the first part of the amendment to be implicit in what has been said about weighing the different regulatory objectives, but I do not think that it is implicit that notice should be given. For that reason alone, I hope that the amendment will commend itself to the Government.
- Time
- 15:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness Ashton of UphollandLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, for spelling out so succinctly the issues that he has raised in his amendment. I am not familiar enough with the Court of Appeal decision. I will look with interest at what he has said and I hope that I will get more information on that. I will try to deal with the points that the noble Lord raised, which were supported by other noble Lords. I agree completely that the board, the approved regulators and the OLC should take a reasoned approach in balancing any impact on the regulatory objectives. It is also important that these bodies operate transparently and are properly accountable. We think that the Bill already achieves what the noble Lord primarily seeks to do with this amendment. In Clause 3, which has been referred to, and Clause 27, the board and the approved regulators must have regard to, “the principles under which regulatory activities should be transparent, accountable, proportionate, consistent and targeted only at cases in which action is needed”. In Clause 113, the OLC must have regard to, “any principles appearing to it to represent the best practice of those who administer ombudsman schemes”. Those principles apply to all regulatory activities wherever these bodies balance those regulatory objectives. We believe that the principle behind what the noble Lord is seeking is well founded in the Bill. The Bill gives good grounds to those who would wish to challenge the decisions that have been made, because it is laid out extremely clearly. We have added that the board has to produce an annual report. Among other things, the report will deal with the question of how far the board has met the regulatory objectives that were set for it. The Bill also sets out a number of provisions dealing with accountability, in particular the extent to which the regulatory bodies have complied with the regulatory objectives. The noble Lord, Lord Maclennan of Rogart, said, echoing the words of the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, that it is a rudimentary requirement of natural justice that the board should give reasons for its administrative decisions. I agree; it should and it must. We do not need to set that out in the Bill, but it will be important, for two reasons. First, as the noble Lord reasonably says, people have to know the basis for the decisions—the reasons why they have been made—in order, if they so wish, to challenge them. Secondly, when decisions have been made, it is important that those affected by them know exactly what they are. I agree with that. It is a principle of natural justice; it is also good practice in regulatory regimes and in the administration of organisations.
- Time
- 15:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Maclennan of RogartLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- My Lords, I hesitate to intervene in the middle of what the Minister is saying but, on this point about notice, there seems to be a difference between getting reasons for a decision ex post facto, which may allow challenge, and notice being given to the parties, or to those to whom the regulatory ruling is being offered, prior to the handing down of the decision. Maybe there is ambiguity in the wording of the amendment, but I think that it is important that the prioritisation of the objectives should be made clear to enable any objections to be taken into account before the decision is given.
- Time
- 15:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness Ashton of UphollandLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, the noble Lord has pre-empted me. I was going to come back with a third and final point about making sure that notice is given. The amendment does not quite work; it does not quite do what the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, said that he intended it to do. It would mean that there would have to be notice of all decisions, at all times and in all circumstances. These are very particular concerns. Given the principles behind how regulatory bodies must work, it is right that they should in general give notice that they will be making the decisions and identify the issues that are being raised. As we have discussed many times, there must be dialogue—we have used the word “partnership” before—between the bodies to get the best possible decision. It is our ambition that this be done appropriately. I do not think that we need to spell it out in the Bill. I hope that what I have said reassures noble Lords and makes it clear that we expect the LSB and the other bodies to behave like good regulatory bodies. They should give notice of the decisions that they are about to make; they should give reasons for their decisions and publicise them as appropriate to those directly affected and those who may be affected in the future; and they should balance and consider the objectives properly. I hope that I have given enough reassurance for the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment on the basis that what I have said will carry weight.
- Time
- 15:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Campbell of AllowayConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, I thank my noble friends Lord Kingsland and Lord Hunt, and the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan of Rogart, and I thank the noble Baroness for her response. It has become apparent that the amendment, although right in principle, may have to be redrafted. That comes as no surprise to me, and I shall need a little help. It has had three goes already, and it is very difficult to get it right—I cannot do much better. I shall withdraw it and bring it back at Third Reading. I would like to make a point for the noble Baroness’s consideration. I am delighted to hear that she accepts the principle of everything that I said. However, I am not in agreement with her confident assertion that it is already reflected in this complex Bill or that, if it is reflected, it is done so in any manner that anybody is likely to be able to find and, if they do, understand. This is a most important matter of principle and, although the amendment may have to be redrafted, it should retain its pride of precedence in Clause 1 as a generic application throughout the Bill. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Schedule 1 [The Legal Services Board]:
- Time
- 15:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord Evans of Temple GuitingLabour- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 6:
- Time
- 15:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Maclennan of RogartLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- My Lords, the group of amendments that we are considering was foreshadowed in the debate that we had in Committee to which the Minister referred; the reasoning for the amendments was endorsed, indeed, presaged by me in that debate. It is important that the new regulatory system should so far as possible ensure greater independence of the legal professions from government; the substitution in the Bill of “Lord Chancellor” for “Secretary of State” was designed to bring that about. Since that debate, however, major changes have been announced in the structuring of government with regard to the role of the Lord Chancellor. It would be helpful if before this debate was concluded the Government could give some indication of how the establishment of a Ministry of Justice may have to be reflected in their thinking about the purposes that they have supported in introducing these amendments. The office of Minister of Justice, which will no doubt—or perhaps I should say “probably”—still attract the title of Lord Chancellor, may be held by a Member of the House of Commons. That seems highly probable. It may be held by someone who is not a lawyer and who, in this new role as Minister of Justice with its very wide responsibilities, will not necessarily carry the conventional views on how the office should be discharged. The role in the Cabinet of the new Secretary of State/Minister of Justice/Lord Chancellor may be quite different from that historically discharged by the Lord Chancellor. The change announced by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor was strongly supported on these Benches, but we equally strongly support the intention that the regulation of the legal professions and services should be so far as possible at arm’s length from government. The independence of that system is very important if public confidence is to be retained. We shall certainly have to give further thought to the consequences of that announcement on this Bill and possibly return to the matter at a later stage.
- Time
- 16:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗