acthub.

EnactedFurther Education and Training Act 2007

OverviewTimeline16Debates11

Report stage in the Lords

27 Feb 200792 speechesView in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness WalmsleyBaroness WalmsleyLiberal Democrat
    Quote
    moved Amendment No. 1:
    Time
    15:08
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness Morris of BoltonBaroness Morris of BoltonConservative
    Quote
    My Lords, my response to this amendment remains the same as it was in Grand Committee. We sympathise with the concern of the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, that regional LSCs will be too large and out of touch to handle issues that tend to be local and not regional, but we still feel that colleges should expand their role in liaising with local authorities and other local bodies. We certainly would not like to see the LSC operating at three different levels: national, regional and local. We hope that the reduction in the number of learning and skills councils will bring about a significant reduction in the bureaucracy and expense that they currently generate. I hope that the Minister’s optimism about the ability of the nine councils to respond flexibly and appropriately to local matters that might be brought to their attention will be justified, but I feel that any difficulties that might emerge from this should be resolved by reducing the scope of the LSCs’ powers rather than by increasing the size of their presence.
    Time
    15:08
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education and Skills (Lord Adonis)The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education and Skills (Lord Adonis)Labour
    Quote
    My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, has summed up the Government’s position fully. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, was kind enough to say that the Government might be listening on this Bill; I appreciate the compliment. As she knows, we have spent six years listening, to her in particular, and the reason why we have come forward with these proposals goes back to her initial suggestion that we should have a regional structure for the Learning and Skills Council and not the system of 47 local learning and skills councils that we initially set up. She therefore knows that we listen intently and sometimes reach the right position eventually. Having arrived at the structure of the nine regional learning and skills councils, plus, as the noble Baroness said, the 150 local partnership teams, which we expect broadly to mirror the areas of local authorities, we do not think that it would be a good idea to set in place another structure, least of all a statutory structure, although we completely recognise the importance of engaging with the sub-regional groupings and consulting at that level, as she rightly said. We believe, though, that the amendment as it is framed would place an additional bureaucratic burden on the Learning and Skills Council and on local authorities. The partner authorities that, under the amendment, the Learning and Skills Council would need to consult when establishing the proposed sub-regional committees are defined in the amendment by Clause 79 of the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Bill; they are concerned with the aspect of that Bill that deals with local area agreements. The list of bodies for consultation under that clause is extensive. It includes bodies such as the English Sports Council, the Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission, the fire and rescue authorities—and I could go on. We believe that consultation by the Learning and Skills Council with bodies such as these would be onerous and unnecessary. Moreover, as the amendment proposes that the committees would be statutory, further subsequent changes would need to go through the whole process of statutory consultation again with the same bodies. While we share the objective of the noble Baroness to ensure that there are effective means of sub-regional consultation and engagement by the Learning and Skills Council—the LSC is, indeed, committed to that—we do not believe that putting this arrangement in the Bill would be a productive step forward.
    Time
    15:08
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness WalmsleyBaroness WalmsleyLiberal Democrat
    Quote
    My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply and the noble Baroness, Lady Morris of Bolton, for her remarks. I am somewhat reassured by the Government’s clear statement from the Dispatch Box that the LSC will have the duty to make sure that it works with all levels, including local authorities and the various partnerships that it makes locally. Such bodies know what the needs are on the ground and require the proper routes to communicate those needs to the LSC. I will go away and consider the noble Lord’s words with great care. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 2 [Regional Councils]:
    Time
    15:15
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    moved Amendment No. 2:
    Time
    15:15
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    moved Amendments Nos. 3 and 4:
    Time
    15:15
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness WalmsleyBaroness WalmsleyLiberal Democrat
    Quote
    moved Amendment No. 5:
    Time
    15:15
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord NorthbourneLord NorthbourneCrossbench
    Quote
    My Lords, I support the amendment. I believe in principle that Bills should say what they are for. If they set up an organisation such as the Learning and Skills Council, they should say what its objectives are as well as how it will work. That is all I need to say in support of the noble Baroness.
    Time
    15:15
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    My Lords, Amendment No. 5—
    Time
    15:15
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness Morris of BoltonBaroness Morris of BoltonConservative
    Quote
    My Lords, I apologise. I thought that my noble friend Lord Eccles wished to speak as he has an amendment in this group.
    Time
    15:15
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    The Lord SpeakerThe Lord SpeakerConservative
    Quote
    My Lords, it may assist the House if I point out that Amendment No. 6 is grouped with Amendment No. 5. If the noble Viscount wishes to speak to it, this is the appropriate moment.
    Time
    15:15
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Viscount EcclesViscount EcclesConservative
    Quote
    My Lords, I am most grateful to the Lord Speaker for her advice. I thank the Minister for his letter of 11 February. I was particularly pleased to see Stockton-on-Tees in the working draft of 29 January attached to his letter. Years ago I attended Stockton-on-Tees technical college. I went to what we then called night school. I was working in a steel foundry. Having previously studied history and economics, it seemed sensible to learn engineering drawing, structural steel design and weight calculations for complex cast components. It was a wholly positive experience. The tech provided me with the wherewithal to do what I was employed to do with much greater understanding and efficiency. The Minister’s letter of 11 February deals with two of the matters that we discussed in Committee: first, the staff reduction programme, begun towards the end of 2005, and, secondly, the LSC’s intended management and geographic structure. The two are interlinked. In 2005, the LSC used a baseline figure of 4,700 employees. The number actually employed in 2004-05 and 2005-06 averaged close to 4,400. When, later this year, there are 3,630 staff, there will, I believe, have been a net reduction of about 800. Since the Minister told the House in December last that 1,100 had already gone, either he or I must be wrong. The letter also provides a baseline figure for administration costs in 2001-02 of £249.1 million, which, I believe, was the expenditure from September 2000 to March 2002—a period of 19 months not a year. Things can get difficult when the information provided is unreliable. The structure of the LSC will remain decentralised, which is most welcome. The change from the present structure is confined to removing the statutory status of the 47 and conferring that status on the nine existing regional bodies. Although the 47 will disappear we are to have the council, nine regional councils, 42 area directors and 150 team partnerships. Whatever else is changing within the LSC, the management structure will not. One question is left unanswered: what will happen to the 750 non-executives? How many will remain? My amendment would do two things. First, it would put the LSC structure into the Bill. I believe that that is right because, however policy changes, there will still be some 2,600 institutions of education involved therefore a decentralised structure is vital if local needs are to be met. I have Stockton-on-Tees in mind. Accepting the need for appropriate flexibility, the amendment provides for changes in the number and location of area directors and puts no upper or lower limit on the number of team partnerships. Indeed, I have followed the Minister’s letter as closely as I could. Secondly, the amendment would strengthen the position of local authorities in relation to the LSC. That point was made in Committee and is strongly supported by local authorities and the Mayor of London. They all believe that they should appear early in the Bill because of the importance of further education and training to the people who elect them. I strongly agree. We are in familiar territory. We are probably close to agreement on the substance, as I believe the Minister was in his reply to the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley. There remains, however, the question of whether provision should be made on the face of the Bill. The Executive usually say, “It is not necessary. We will see that it happens anyway”, but Ministers cannot bind their successors, so an Opposition will say that matters would be better safeguarded by statute than by undertakings. I believe that in this case the face of the Bill is the right answer. Not being a parliamentary draftsman, I am sure that the detailed wording of the amendment will need to be changed. However, if the Minister agreed to its thrust it would be a simple matter to get it right in a government amendment at Third Reading. I look forward to the Minister’s positive response. I beg to move.
    Time
    15:15
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness Morris of BoltonBaroness Morris of BoltonConservative
    Quote
    My Lords, although I have great sympathy with the concerns of the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, over the undefined—I nearly read that as unedified—duties of the LSC, I disagree with the need for such wide duties to be put into primary legislation. Our concern is that such an amendment would lead to even more responsibility being taken away from the colleges and invested instead in an unelected body. We would far rather the LSC’s duties were restricted to light-touch and arm’s-length oversight rather than the heavily involved and wide-ranging role that the amendment suggests. On the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord Eccles, as I said in response to Amendment No. 5, the efficiency-saving that the change from local to regional councils will, one hopes, bring about is our primary reason for supporting the move. However, my noble friend raises some interesting questions, and I hope that the Minister can answer them satisfactorily. As I said in response to the first amendment proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, the worst-case scenario that we can envisage would be a LSC that spans national, regional and local levels. That would involve overwhelming bureaucracy and wasteful government at its worst; as such, we cannot fully support the amendments.
    Time
    15:15
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    My Lords, I entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, that Bills should define or—following the noble Baroness, Lady Morris—edify what they are about. It is important to understand that the Bill before us amends the Learning and Skills Act 2000, which sets out the purposes of the Learning and Skills Council very clearly. Section 3 of that Act says: “The Council must secure the provision of reasonable facilities for— (a) education (other than higher education) suitable to the requirements of persons who have attained the age of 19, (b) training suitable to the requirements of such persons, (c) organised leisure-time occupation connected with such education, and (d) organised leisure time occupation connected with such training”. Section 4 of the 2000 Act says: “The Council must— (a) encourage individuals to undergo post-16 education and training; (b) encourage employers to participate in the provision of post-16 education and training; (c) encourage employers to contribute to the costs of post-16 education and training”. Taken together, those two provisions set out a very broad sweep of ambitions and duties in respect of the Learning and Skills Council. What the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, wishes to do—because she always encourages us to aim higher in our ambitions for education and training—is to define the duties of the Learning and Skills Council more widely still. Though I welcome the fact that she no longer wishes them to promote general well-being, as she did in her amendments in Grand Committee, we are still concerned that her current amendment would significantly extend the duties of the LSC, beyond the point where it is reasonable to do so. In this I follow the noble Baroness, Lady Morris. Proposed paragraph (iii) of her amendment would require the council to, “promote the fulfilment of the educational potential by every person participating in courses funded by the Council”. I understand the aspiration set out by the noble Baroness, but it does not need saying that an FE college is not a school. I say this because, given the terms of the amendment, it would be very difficult to see how either the Learning and Skills Council specifically or indeed the further education system as a whole could effectively discharge the duty in paragraph (iii), recognising that most FE students follow specific courses, a good proportion of them part-time. It is hard to see how, in practice—given that a student’s relationship with a college is fundamentally different from a pupil’s relationship with a school—the Learning and Skills Council could realistically meet the proposed duty. I can, however, give an encouraging response to other elements of the noble Baroness’s amendment. She highlights the importance of quality in her amendment. We entirely agree with her. That is why, for example, the Quality Improvement Agency in Further Education is dedicated to working with providers, including those performing poorly, to raise their standards and increase their capacity. We are also, as is the noble Baroness in her amendments, committed to ensuring fair access to learning. That is why we have introduced educational maintenance allowances at a cost of many hundreds of millions of pounds. These are specifically geared towards promoting fair access to learning, and doing so with considerable success. I very much agree with the noble Baroness about the importance of the Learning and Skills Council, both nationally and regionally, co-operating with further education colleges, among others. As we set out in our White Paper last March, the Learning and Skills Council is establishing a new and more effective relationship with colleges and providers, so that they can focus on improvements and meeting the needs of learners. A key part of this is the new arrangement for a single nominated Learning and Skills Council individual, called a strategic partner, for each college or other provider. Their role will be to discuss priorities, to commission provision within a much more streamlined and light-touch planning framework and systematically to help co-ordinate and build partnerships between the LSC and the respective college or provider. I hope that the objectives set out by the noble Baroness in her amendment are very substantially met. For the reasons I have given, we cannot go the whole way with her in her amendment. I am delighted that the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, had such a good experience of further education in Stockton-on-Tees and that he brings that experience to consideration of this Bill. As he said, we are narrowing the points of disagreement between us. I have dealt with the issue of numbers a good deal in our correspondence, and I will seek fully to reply to his latest letter to me. I hope to deal with most of the issues he raised, which are technical and deal with the calculation of numbers relating to job changes at the Learning and Skills Council and with base lines. The noble Viscount asked how the baseline set out in the Learning and Skills Council’s first annual report and accounts, covering a period of 19 months, could be compared with subsequent years. That is a major point. I am informed that the calculation of the baseline was necessary, because Section 29 of the Learning and Skills Act 2000 specifies that the first financial year for the council should be the period starting with the date on which it was established and ending with the second 31 March following that date—as the noble Viscount said, that was a period of 19 months. However, for the first seven months, the Learning and Skills Council was in embryonic form and did not become fully operational until April 2001, when the operational staff transferring from the former training and enterprise councils and the former Education Funding Council for England took up posts. I am advised that the £249 million baseline figure to which the noble Viscount referred is appropriate for the department and the Learning and Skills Council to use because, for all practical purposes, it relates to a period of 12 not 19 months. Subsequent comparisons are, therefore, reasonable. Perhaps I may deal with the other issues raised by the noble Viscount in correspondence. Amendment No. 6 is not necessary because it would place a statutory duty on the regional councils of the Learning and Skills Council, of which there will be nine, to set up between 27 and 54 area offices. However, as I said earlier in response to the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, the Learning and Skills Council will set up around 150 local partnership teams, which is approximately one per local authority. I set out their functions in my letter to the noble Viscount. As I stressed in that letter and in my remarks, the Learning and Skills Council and local authorities already work in close partnership and the arrangements by which they do that will be strengthened by proposals in the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Bill, currently in another place, which place a duty on responsible local authorities to co-operate with partner authorities, of which the Learning and Skills Council is one, in producing local area agreements. I hope that I am further narrowing the points of disagreement between the noble Viscount and myself. When I have replied to more of the specific points raised in his latest letter, I will be happy to engage with him further.
    Time
    15:30
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness WalmsleyBaroness WalmsleyLiberal Democrat
    Quote
    My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply and other noble Lords for their contributions. I am grateful to the Minister for reading us the declaratory statements in the Learning and Skills Act 2000, but reasonable provision, as stated in that Act, is not quite the same as high-quality provision. He rightly identified that that is one of our major concerns; but, I suppose we will have to make do with the Audit Commission, rather than having something on the face of the Bill, if the Government insist that that is not appropriate. In addition, encouraging individuals is not quite the same as helping students to fulfil their potential. Proposed paragraphs (ii) and (iii) of our amendment are both about access, and I accept that it is for colleges primarily to ensure fair access. In my defence against the noble Baroness, Lady Morris of Bolton, I would point out to her that we provide in paragraph (iv) that the learning and skills councils should co-operate with the colleges on those duties. I shall not press the matter at this point; we have had another fair debate about it, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendment No. 6 not moved.] Clause 4 [Strategies for functions of Council]:
    Time
    15:30
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Viscount EcclesViscount EcclesConservative
    Quote
    moved Amendment No. 7:
    Time
    15:30
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    My Lords, the noble Viscount returns to an issue that he raised in Committee: the legitimacy of directions by Ministers on policy or routine management. Perhaps I could seek to reassure him again that it is not our intention to act unreasonably in this regard. The sort of matters that we envisage being subject to directions rather than guidance include the organisations and bodies to be consulted in preparing a strategy on the part of the respective learning and skills council, the form of and broad areas to be covered by the strategy, and matters to which a body should “have regard” when preparing its strategy. It is our firm intention to keep directions high-level and specific. We have demonstrated this clearly in the draft directions that we have already published for the strategy-making body for London, which I made available to noble Lords at an earlier stage. That document set out very clearly the scope of proposed directions. Those directions concern the form and content of the London strategy-making body. The strategy must, “be presented as a written document; focus on training and skills for learners aged 19 and above who are in employment or who will be seeking employment … be supported by a high quality evidence base and identify the evidence used in formulating or reviewing it; contain measurable outcomes; promote equality of opportunity”. It sets out the elements that must be covered by the strategy. It also sets out a process for updating the strategy, stating that it must be set for a period of five years and formally reviewed and updated annually. It also sets out arrangements for consultation when formulating or reviewing a strategy, including listing the bodies that should be consulted. We do not regard those as unreasonable matters that the strategy-making body should have regard to in devising a strategy; on the contrary, if we were not able to give assurances that these matters would be pursued by the respective strategy-making body, I believe we would be in dereliction of our duties to Parliament. So we think that the matters covered by the proposed directions are reasonable and, on that basis, I do not believe that the issues raised by the noble Viscount apply. However, as he says, as a last resort, there could be a judicial review if the Secretary of State sought to act unreasonably. Although I cannot give him the figures for judicial reviews in this area, they are common within the public sector where it is thought that public bodies act unreasonably.
    Time
    15:30
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Viscount EcclesViscount EcclesConservative
    Quote
    My Lords, I thank the Minister for his explanation. With regard to the last point, I think that there is a difference between judicial reviews raised by private bodies and bodies among the public and those that might be raised by a non-departmental public body taking on its own Secretary of State. I do not think that that has happened very often, if ever. I do not disagree at all with the Minister that those matters need to be covered. My point is quite different: they can be covered in the Bill and by guidance, letters and dialogue. It is the constitutional issue relating to directions about which I am concerned. However, I have heard the Minister’s explanation, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Time
    15:30
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness WalmsleyBaroness WalmsleyLiberal Democrat
    Quote
    moved Amendment No. 8:
    Time
    15:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness Turner of CamdenBaroness Turner of CamdenLabour
    Quote
    My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment No. 11, which is grouped. As your Lordships will be aware, in Grand Committee, there was a very lengthy discussion about the position of London, to which the amendment relates. It was understood, I think, that London is in a special situation because there are skill disparities in London, a high unemployment rate of 7.5 per cent—higher than the national average—and high child poverty rates. Of course, it was understood that skill levels are only one dimension in all this, but they are an important one. There was general agreement that it was right that there should be a special role for the mayor in seeing through the strategy in London and in establishing and chairing a new London skills and employment board. Our only problem is that the Bill seems to make that a matter for the Secretary of State's discretion. Although that might be all right today, one does not know what may happen in future. Therefore, we felt it necessary to have an amendment that makes it obligatory on the Secretary of State to ensure that the board is established and permanent—that those arrangements continue with no question of them being withdrawn by some future Secretary of State. I must say that when we had that discussion and many people agreed with that view in Grand Committee, my noble friend made an extremely sympathetic response. We were very pleased that he responded in the way that he did. Since then, I have had a very welcome letter from him indicating general agreement with that. That being the case, when the amendment is called, seriatim in its place, I intend to move it and hope to receive the endorsement of the House.
    Time
    15:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness Morris of BoltonBaroness Morris of BoltonConservative
    Quote
    My Lords, first, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Turner of Camden, on succeeding where many of us have failed. I am glad that the Government have come some way in amendments to be moved in a later group to meet the concerns raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, in Grand Committee and again here by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley. However, the government amendment to allow the Secretary of State to specify other people and organisations which the Learning and Skills Council should consult falls a long way short of providing sufficient reassurance. In reply to this amendment or when he moves his amendments, can the Minister confirm which organisations he intends to include in guidance? The Learning and Skills Council has enormous powers over further education providers and will have yet more when the Bill goes through. It is only right that those powers are wielded with the utmost care to ensure that local organisations are listened to and their concerns acted on. I hope that the Government will consider whether the amendment moved by the noble Baroness can be more positively incorporated into theirs.
    Time
    15:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness HamweeBaroness HamweeLiberal Democrat
    Quote
    My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, on her success in being so persuasive with the Government. I must take some lessons from her privately. I am grateful to the Minister for succumbing to her persuasion.
    Time
    15:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    My Lords, I start with the London skills and employment board. In Grand Committee, I promised that if my noble friend Lady Turner wished to table her amendment to Clause 4 again on Report, we would give it very sympathetic consideration. She has done so and I can say that we are glad to accept it. We always intended to put the arrangements for the existing non-statutory London skills and employment board on a firm and permanent footing. The amendment gives us the opportunity to do so, which we are glad to embrace. We are also glad that it has such wide support across the House. On Amendments Nos. 8, 9, 21 and 22 tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, let me say first that we share entirely the objectives of the noble Baroness in respect of consultation with local authorities and the need to take account of local area agreements. However, as I said in Grand Committee, we do not believe that these amendments are necessary. In the first place, the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Bill will place a duty on local authorities to co-operate with partner authorities, of which the Learning and Skills Council is one, when producing local area agreements. The Bill also proposes that partner authorities such as the LSC must, in exercising their functions, have regard to every local improvement target specified in the local area agreement which relates to it. That, I believe, goes a considerable way towards meeting the objectives set out by the noble Baroness. However, in terms of the duties on the further education sector itself, we believe that the right place to refer to these matters is in direction and guidance. We have been considering how to take forward the issue of strengthening directions and guidance to ensure that the process takes place. Although the published draft of the directions and guidance does not currently refer to local area agreements and local improvement targets, we intend to ensure that the matters referred to in Amendment No. 8, as proposed in the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Bill, are addressed in the final version of the directions and guidance. That will meet the objective set out in Amendment No. 8. Turning to Amendments Nos. 21 and 22, I understand the concern to ensure that the Learning and Skills Council consults the community, including the relevant local authority, where there are proposals to establish or dissolve further education corporations. Such consultation is already a fundamental part of the process of establishing and dissolving further education corporations and it will continue to be so. Regulations are already in place which set out the process for publishing proposals to establish and dissolve corporations. While some minor amendments to the existing regulations are required to reflect the transfer of powers from the Secretary of State to the Learning and Skills Council, we intend to keep the current process set out in those regulations in place. They prescribe both the type of information that must be included in the proposal and the manner in which it must be published. The proposal must include the rationale for the action being proposed and there is an existing requirement for all proposals to be sent to the local authority in the area the institution is situated, or is proposed to be situated. Under the regulations, following a period of at least one calendar month, any representations from the community, including the relevant local authority, have to be considered by the Learning and Skills Council before a decision is made to establish or to dissolve a further education corporation and, as I have said, these provisions will be retained in the new regulations to be made under Section 51 as amended. Local authorities will therefore have information on the rationale for the proposed action. They will also have the ability to comment on those proposals and to have those comments formally considered before any decision can be made. So I hope that the matters raised by the noble Baroness are fully met.
    Time
    15:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness WalmsleyBaroness WalmsleyLiberal Democrat
    Quote
    My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply and I am delighted with what he has told us about the final version of the directions and guidance. I suppose it only goes to show that when writing amendments for any Bill, one must have on one’s desk a large pile of the previous Bills, and now future Bills that have not come before us yet as well. I soon learnt that no Bill is an island in this place. So I thank the noble Lord for his reassurances. Taken together, his comments go a long way towards satisfying my concerns. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendments Nos. 9 and 10 not moved.]
    Time
    15:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness Turner of CamdenBaroness Turner of CamdenLabour
    Quote
    moved Amendment No. 11:
    Time
    15:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness HamweeBaroness HamweeLiberal Democrat
    Quote
    moved Amendment No. 12:
    Time
    15:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness Morris of BoltonBaroness Morris of BoltonConservative
    Quote
    My Lords, we are sympathetic to the amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, to ensure that the council consults and listens to the Assembly, and is suitably open to the public. As I made clear when speaking to the previous group of amendments, anything that makes the Learning and Skills Council more transparent, accountable and responsive to local opinion and needs is a good thing. There is no other way that we can move towards a demand-led system. I hope the Minister will be able to reassure us on these points, and that he will consider these amendments carefully.
    Time
    15:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, has retabled two amendments that were tabled in Grand Committee. Amendment No. 12 would require the London Skills and Employment Board in preparing its strategy to consult the Assembly, and to have regard to any response. Amendment No. 13 would make statutory provision about public access to the body’s meetings and papers. On Amendment No. 12, we fully accept that the views of the Assembly are important and need to be taken account of by both the Mayor and the London Skills and Employment Board. That will be the case, and it is made clear in the draft directions, which I read out in response to the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, and which we have made available to the House. These state: “In formulating the strategy, the Board must consult the following consultation bodies”, including the Greater London Assembly. The draft directions also state that the strategy must include a summary of the main issues raised by those consulted and how they have been addressed, so there must therefore be a formal response to that consultation as well. However, I reiterate that we do not accept that the Assembly has a different role from that of other consultation bodies in respect of this strategy. The skills strategy will not be like the mayoral strategy set out in the Greater London Authority Act, which make up the Mayor’s strategic framework for London. Rather, the role of the London Skills and Employment Board is to formulate a skills strategy for Greater London that sits within the framework of legislation that concerns the Learning and Skills Council and its functions in relation to education and training. The Learning and Skills Council will be under a duty to carry out its functions in accordance with the skills strategy. We believe that this makes it a very different strategy from the mayoral strategies. The skills strategy for London will be produced by the Mayor and the London Skills and Employment Board working together, with the Mayor as its chairman. The board will be under a duty to comply with directions and to have regard to guidance given by the Secretary of State, and the skills strategy will form part of the national skills strategy. All this means that it is different in kind from the Mayor’s other strategies. For this reason, although we believe it right that the assembly should be consulted, it would be wrong to say that the assembly’s role should be exactly the same with regard to the skills strategy as with the mayoral strategies in the GLA acts. On Amendment No. 13, we have considered this point further. It is still our view that it would be unduly prescriptive to set out in regulations or directions whether and how the public and press should be given access to meetings and documents of the London Skills and Employment Board. If the noble Baroness were willing to withdraw her amendment, I can undertake to seek to develop guidance on the need for transparency and openness in the conduct of the business of the board. On the board’s actual practice, although as she said the early meetings have been held in private, I understand that as the members of the board become more accustomed to their new role, it is likely that they will want to move towards having meetings in public rather than in private. If we were to develop guidance of the kind I have just indicated, this would give them a strong lead in this direction. There is no disagreement between us about the desirability of having meetings in public wherever possible. However, we believe this decision should be left to the judgment of the board members, most of whom are London employers and well aware of their responsibilities to the wider community in their city and anxious to serve it. Guidance is a better route to go down than directions of the kind envisaged by the noble Baroness in her amendment.
    Time
    15:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness HamweeBaroness HamweeLiberal Democrat
    Quote
    My Lords, the Minister says that he will seek to develop guidance. I welcome those words but is that a commitment to there being guidance, or an assurance that the matter will be further considered? I hope that it will be the former.
    Time
    15:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    My Lords, it is an assurance that the matter will be further considered. I undertake to come back with our formal, proposed way forward before Third Reading. The noble Baroness will then be free to bring the matter back to the House if she is not satisfied with our proposed course of action.
    Time
    15:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness HamweeBaroness HamweeLiberal Democrat
    Quote
    My Lords, I am grateful for that and thank the noble Baroness for her support. I am in danger of repeating what I said in introducing both amendments. I think I anticipated the Minister’s arguments. I am sorry that he feels unable to accept that there is a particular role for the Assembly to contribute to the development of the strategy. The Mayor will shortly have new duties in, for instance, housing and climate change. Those are not matters where the Government are going to leave him entirely to his own devices, so I do not see the distinction that the Minister sees. I am grateful for what the Minister says on taking forward openness and transparency. I feel slightly uncomfortable in even having to raise the matter, and do not want it to be thought that I do not have confidence in the individual members of the board. Having had, over a period of many years, dealings with people from different backgrounds, I have become entirely used to the different ways we all approach public duty. Their commitment is no less, but the customs which they apply are very different. Having said that, and thanking him for looking at the point on transparency, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendment No. 13 not moved.] Clause 6 [Duty in relation to diversity and choice]:
    Time
    15:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord NorthbourneLord NorthbourneCrossbench
    Quote
    moved Amendment No. 14:
    Time
    15:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    The Lord Bishop of ManchesterThe Lord Bishop of ManchesterBishops
    Quote
    My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment No. 15, which stands in my name, but I support the significant points concerning pastoral services that have just been made by the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, speaking most movingly, not least from his personal experience in FE. With him, I ask the Minister to ensure that the review of pastoral arrangements, including multi-faith chaplaincy, which is commended in the White Paper published last year to which he referred, is then transformed from the vision of a White Paper into the reality of legislation. As I and others from across the House have said at all the stages of this Bill, there is more at stake than pastoral arrangements alone, important though they are. My amendment would remove an historical anomaly whereby 16 to 19 year-olds in schools have an entitlement to provision for their spiritual, moral, social and cultural development but 16 to 19 year-olds who are in colleges do not. Such entitlement is about more than pastoral matters; it relates to the whole of college provision, to a college’s ethos and inclusivity, and to the extent to which it meets the needs of all young people in college of whatever faith or none. It simply cannot be right that young people at this crucial and vulnerable age who are in colleges have no space within the curriculum, or in enrichment or other activities, to explore the important questions about meaning and purpose in their lives and about the values, beliefs and faiths in our society, and that that omission occurs simply because they happen to be following a vocational course or, in some cases, an A-level course in a college rather than in a school. I realise that this is not the moment for a great debate about the current moral difficulties of this generation of young people. We need time to absorb the lessons of, for example, the United Nations report on childhood. However, we need to ponder the messages that come from multi-faith chaplaincies in colleges about young people who are very interested in faith and values but who lack the moral compass to which earlier generations of young people may have had access. Some of the young people who are being drawn into a violent gun culture in places such as Peckham, or in Moss Side in my diocese, or some of the young people who are on hard drugs in places all over the country or who indulge in escapist binge-drinking on a Saturday night, are likely, if they are in any form of post-16 education, to be in colleges rather than anywhere else. We should salute the FE colleges for the way in which they support these students and for the way in which they are attracting increasing numbers of the so-called NEET students—students not in education, employment or training—who are often from marginalised groups and deprived areas. We should make absolutely sure—and this means having some sort of legal duty or entitlement—that the colleges have spiritual, moral, cultural and social development at the heart of any provision, especially in relation to employability skills. Employability is not only about technical and practical skills; employers are often quoted as saying that their main requirements from young employees, in addition to a basic level of skills, are qualities such as reliability, honesty, self-confidence and a sense of right and wrong. These are core human values, as I am sure noble Lords will agree, which have always been directly linked to the values and traditions of the faiths, whether Christianity or the other great religions, and to the great humanist traditions. As noble Lords noted in Committee, churches and faiths are at one with the British Humanist Association in championing spiritual and moral education in FE colleges through the LSC-funded project, All Faiths and None. I say clearly from the Bishops’ Bench that engaging with faith and non-faith traditions is an essential part of every young person’s development and training for skills. If this or any Government convey the impression that all that matters in life is economic prosperity and technical skill, there will be sad consequences for society and young people. Indeed, we are already seeing those consequences in the confusion, disaffection and sometimes depression among the young. To refer again to the United Nations report, I see it as no shame at all that 30 per cent of young people have so-called “low ambitions” in the areas of technical and vocational skills such as construction, engineering, IT, health and caring services. My younger daughter is training as a nurse at the moment. These are not low aspirations—and even if they happen to be called so-called “low ambitions” they have just as much value as academic achievements. We need to show young people in colleges that they deserve equality of esteem and entitlement with those young people who are following the academic route in schools. On this Bench, we have taken on board the Minister’s comments in Committee that this Bill is about the structure and organisation of FE rather than the curriculum. I withdrew the earlier proposed amendment, which might have placed a duty on colleges in respect of the curriculum. But what I suggest through this amendment is that the LSC should have regard, as part of its brief, to the spiritual, moral, social and cultural needs of students as well as to the other important aspects of their education and training. A modest signal given now in this Bill indicating the broader overall purposes of further education would correct the historical anomaly to which I referred, whereby the deeper needs of students and the values and faiths of our society appear to be a matter for 16 to 19 year-olds only if they are in schools, not colleges. That simply cannot be right.
    Time
    16:15
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness WalmsleyBaroness WalmsleyLiberal Democrat
    Quote
    My Lords, before speaking to my Amendment No. 49, which is in this group, I shall say a word about the other two amendments that have just been proposed. On the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, I absolutely agree with him about the needs of the group of young people to whom he referred. Those who have dropped out of school very often find that they are treated very differently in a college and respond well to that. It is important that their pastoral needs are taken care of. However, I echo the words that the noble Baroness, Lady Morris of Bolton, used in respect of one of my earlier amendments, in that I think that this is a matter for the colleges, rather than for the Learning and Skills Council. On the amendment of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester, we on these Benches believe that it is right that the anomaly should be corrected—that anomaly exists, there is no question about it. Provision should be made in colleges for the spiritual, moral, cultural and social needs of young people. My only concern is whether the right reverend Prelate’s amendment would place a duty on all colleges to have chaplaincies of every faith that operates in this country or else be accused of discrimination. Can the Minister respond to this concern of mine? Obviously, this sort of work needs to be made available to young people, but in my view they should not be forced to take part in it once they are over the age of 16. Amendment No. 49 would place on colleges of further education the same duties to promote the well-being of students as the Children Act 2004 gives to schools; it would also give the same duties to promote community cohesion as the Education and Inspections Act 2006 puts on schools. Given that many pupils of the same age—14 to 19 year-olds, as we have just heard—attend both sorts of institution, we on these Benches see no justification for colleges not having these duties. When the national vocational diplomas get into full swing, even more of these young people will attend FE colleges. Even now, in areas where students from many schools do some or all of their A-levels at FE colleges, a different set of duties applies to them in the two kinds of educational institutions that they attend. This cannot be right. When the Education and Inspections Act 2006 passed through this House, we had long and interesting debates about the integration or otherwise of pupils of different faiths in different kinds of schools. Some of your Lordships were keen on single-faith schools and others were against them, on the basis that they did not assist people of different faiths to get to know one another and to get on together. The compromise hatched by the Government in the face of this situation—with the assistance of the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland of Houndwood, and others—was to allow faith schools to continue, but to give all schools the duty to promote social cohesion. Some of us will be very interested to see how Ofsted inspects them on that duty, and whether the criteria will include their admissions policies. In colleges, however, you usually get a much more mixed population. One might think that it would be easier for colleges to fulfil this duty. Whether or not this is the case, it is vital that we have coherence and strength of message about the importance of social cohesion and the five outcomes of the Every Child Matters programme. Many students at FE colleges are, indeed, still children and their well-being must be served just the same, whether they attend college or school. If the Government accept this principle, and my amendment or something like it, we would need an amendment to Section 125 of the Education and Inspections Act 2006 to allow colleges to be inspected, as well as schools, on the new duty. Perhaps the Minister will think about that when considering my amendment.
    Time
    16:30
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness Howe of IdlicoteBaroness Howe of IdlicoteCrossbench
    Quote
    My Lords, having been moved by the first two speeches and having a certain sympathy, too, with the approach of the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, which had echoes of previous legislation in which we were all involved, I very much hope that the Minister will reassure us that all this can be done in a way that is obvious and visible to all colleges, and is not just assumed to be—as this Bill is, apparently—about structure and organisation rather than content. The points made by my noble friend Lord Northbourne about these young people who, for whatever reason, have got into difficult circumstances are very important. Funnily enough, this morning I was at a breakfast organised by Plan where I heard about a young man who had been in and out of unlawful activity. He used the gym as a method of working out. In that process, he came across a young person suffering from Down’s syndrome. They established a good relationship and this brought out the best side of the young man, who stopped offending and went on to become an adviser on such young people for a local authority. That is a one-off but I refer to the spiritual side, the whole community involvement side and the facilities that should be available for the young people whom we are discussing. As the right reverend Prelate said, there should be no difference in this regard between those who are at school and those in the same age group who want to undertake further education or training. We should welcome them whenever and however they come into the system. In my view it should be made very clear to the LSC as well as to individual colleges that this should take place. I hope that the Minister will reassure us on that.
    Time
    16:30
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness Morris of BoltonBaroness Morris of BoltonConservative
    Quote
    My Lords, I do not need to repeat the excellent points made by the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester, who spoke even more eloquently on this matter than they did in Committee. I also pay tribute to the work that has evidently gone on behind the scenes in the creation of these amendments. The noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, and the right reverend Prelate proposed two amendments that offer two alternative methods of achieving wider and better provision of spiritual guidance in FE colleges. As I am sure the Minister will agree, their arguments are irresistible. Surely he will acknowledge that it is at best odd, and at worst inconsistent, that one 16 year-old should be entitled to pastoral care or spiritual care and guidance while another is deprived of it purely by virtue of the educational establishment that they attend. This issue is so important to the general well-being of students, and to the contribution of FE colleges to their wider communities. I have great sympathy with the difficulties that the right reverend Prelate encountered in Committee. It seems that the Bill has been drawn so narrowly as to preclude the inclusion of a substantive amendment to encourage the adoption of either spiritual, moral and cultural guidance as proposed by the right reverend Prelate, or pastoral care as proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne. I shall be very interested to read the Ecumenical Agency’s report later in the year. Can the Minister assure noble Lords that he will take its recommendations into account and that he will communicate to it whether he intends to introduce policy following the report? Amendment No. 49 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, makes for familiar reading, as she said. I recall reading in the Official Report that, during the passage of the education Bill last summer, the Government accepted amendments tabled by the Liberal Democrats that placed a duty on governing bodies to promote well-being. The terms of this amendment cover similar ground but add to that duty a duty to promote community cohesion. I warmly support the principle behind the noble Baroness’s amendment; nobody can disagree with the importance of promoting well-being and community cohesion. I hope that other noble Lords will agree with me that no further education college would not promote well-being and community cohesion. Amendment No. 49 raises an important issue, for which I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, but I believe that this is a matter of social responsibility and should not be a statutory requirement. We are concerned that the law as it applies to children might be invoked with respect to adults, as could be the case were this amendment accepted. That is our reservation on Amendment No. 49.
    Time
    16:30
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord DearingLord DearingCrossbench
    Quote
    My Lords, it seems very strange that there should be a duty for 16 to 19 year-olds in one part of the education firmament and not a matching one elsewhere. It simply does not stand up. The argument of logic is very powerful and I cannot see any grounds to dissent from what has been said. I hope that the Government will respond positively to this, especially as it has such wide support in the House and outside the House in the humanist community. We are not debating faith, which sometimes divides us; this is something that unites us. It is in the interests of all young people that they should receive this nourishment.
    Time
    16:30
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    My Lords, I will deal first with the spiritual, moral, cultural and social needs, quite rightly highlighted by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester. I entirely agree with him that it is wrong to conceive of further education as purely a matter of technical and practical skills. We made clear in last year’s further education White Paper that education and training for community development and personal fulfilment have an important place. The White Paper states that, “for young people in particular, [further education] must extend to inculcating the values, attitudes and knowledge that society seeks from its young people”. We are concerned to see that institutions educating 16 to 19 year-olds take the spiritual and moral well-being of their students seriously. We also recognise that many students want their faith or spiritual needs recognised, and that many colleges already provide a range of facilities to meet their students’ spiritual needs, including multi-faith chaplaincy services and prayer rooms. Indeed, under Section 44 of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992, there is already a statutory duty on further education colleges, in respect of 16 to 19 year-olds, to ensure that an act of worship is held at least once a week. We do not think that imposing a wide-ranging duty on the Learning and Skills Council, changing its remit, is the way forward for the reasons I set out in Grand Committee. I hope I can indicate our commitment to strengthening provision in this area in ways that the right reverend Prelate will welcome. In particular, Clause 7 of the Bill provides that the Learning and Skills Council must have regard to guidance from the Secretary of State on consulting with employers, learners and potential learners. The draft of this guidance, which I have made available to noble Lords, specifically recognises that, “for many young people, their faith or spiritual needs are important defining characteristics of who they are”. The draft guidance also states that the Learning and Skills Council should, “consider consulting learners and potential learners on their spiritual and faith or no-faith needs as a key part of reviewing student support services”. I stress the words “a key part”. Consultation on these aspects could, where appropriate, include representatives of key faith communities or faith groups. I reiterate the undertaking I gave in Grand Committee to study carefully the review of the spiritual, moral, social and cultural needs of students in further education, being carried out by the National Ecumenical Agency in Further Education, of which the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London is patron. We look forward to the recommendations of the agency in April. Once this review has been reported in the spring, we will consider whether there is a need for further national initiatives or policy. Following the lead of the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, I undertake that the Minister for Further and Higher Education will be glad to meet the right reverend Prelate and any other noble Lords who wish to join that meeting to discuss the report and initiatives that it would be sensible to take forward in light of it. I hope that, while I have not been able to satisfy the right reverend Prelate entirely, I have at least been able to move some way in his direction, on the basis of our shared concern to see these issues taken seriously in further education, and not simply regarded as the preserve of schools and institutions dealing with younger people. On Amendment No. 14, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, and Amendment No. 49, moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, I agree strongly with them that there is a need for robust systems to ensure the well-being of students, promote community cohesion and ensure that all young people have access to appropriate pastoral care. Let me set out some of our provisions in this regard. First, it is a requirement that where 14 to 16 year-old pupils who are registered with a school spend part of their time in a further education college, they remain pupils of the school. That school, therefore, has a duty to promote their well-being. Amendment No. 49, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, seeks to place duties on FE colleges that mirror existing duties on schools. These are not needed. Colleges, through the work of their student support services, tutorial work and enrichment work activities, are constantly engaged in promoting the well-being of young people. That is underpinned by Section 175 of the Education Act 2002, which requires governing bodies of further education colleges in England and Wales to ensure that they exercise their functions with a view to safeguarding and promoting the welfare of their younger students.
    Time
    16:30
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness WalmsleyBaroness WalmsleyLiberal Democrat
    Quote
    My Lords, does the Minister have any comments about the social cohesion part of my amendment? He has answered very fully the well-being aspects, but not the social cohesion aspect.
    Time
    16:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    My Lords, I should stress that the common inspection framework in England to which I referred also includes holding colleges to account for their work in supporting community cohesion. I am informed that that includes activities such as hosting faith awareness weeks, which meets the point raised by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester. The Government encourage and support these activities. For example, we work with the Association of Colleges in England and others to ensure that colleges have good guidance on effective practice in community cohesion work. As I said, they are then inspected against that.
    Time
    16:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord NorthbourneLord NorthbourneCrossbench
    Quote
    My Lords, are there annual visits by Ofsted?
    Time
    16:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    My Lords, the noble Lord raises an important point. He is right that there is now a light-touch inspection regime, but all institutions are still visited on a regular cycle. That varies depending on the type of institution but it is about once every three years. The point that I think the noble Lord was getting at is that the depth of that inspection is now in inverse proportion to success. Successfully managed institutions whose self-evaluation is positive and held to be accurate by inspections will not receive one of the old-style inspections that included large numbers of inspectors sitting at the back of classes. However, institutions that demonstrate weaknesses in their self-evaluation or whose leadership and management is not found to be satisfactory by inspectors— and that includes pastoral support of pupils—will be subject to a more in-depth inspection and can be issued with a notice to improve or, in extremis, be placed in special measures, which requires a radical improvement plan to be put in place. The inspection arrangements are still robust in meeting the noble Lord’s concerns.
    Time
    16:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord NorthbourneLord NorthbourneCrossbench
    Quote
    My Lords, that is very helpful; I am grateful to the noble Lord. I want to apologise to the right reverend Prelate. I promised him before the debate that I would support him, but I was so excited about my own amendment that I forgot to do so. I indeed support the right reverend Prelate. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, referred to the possibility that pastoral care should be the business of the colleges. I wholly agree, but the Learning and Skills Council provides the money for these things. If the issue is not in the Bill or in some other way officially endorsed, the LSC perhaps could be accused of misusing its funds if it provided an extra teacher or person to carry out personal and social care, for example. The guidance that the noble Lord said he had sent has not yet drifted down to the Cross Benches.
    Time
    16:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    My Lords, I will ensure that the noble Lord receives it forthwith.
    Time
    16:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord NorthbourneLord NorthbourneCrossbench
    Quote
    My Lords, while I would not absolutely guarantee not to bring this up again when I have seen the guidance, I am grateful to the noble Lord.
    Time
    16:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    The Lord Bishop of ManchesterThe Lord Bishop of ManchesterBishops
    Quote
    My Lords, I deeply appreciate the noble Lord’s warm support and that of other noble Lords, including, most particularly, the noble Baroness, Lady Morris of Bolton. I would have loved to have had the warmly enthusiastic and immediate acceptance of my amendment by the Minister, but I have been reassured by what he has said; I appreciate that.
    Time
    16:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord NorthbourneLord NorthbourneCrossbench
    Quote
    My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendment No. 15 not moved.] Clause 7 [Consultation by the Council]:
    Time
    16:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    moved Amendment No. 16:
    Time
    16:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness WalmsleyBaroness WalmsleyLiberal Democrat
    Quote
    My Lords, it only remains for me to thank the noble Lord for listening. On Question, amendment agreed to.
    Time
    16:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    moved Amendments Nos. 17 and 18:
    Time
    16:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    moved Amendment No. 19:
    Time
    16:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    moved Amendment No. 20:
    Time
    16:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness WalmsleyBaroness WalmsleyLiberal Democrat
    Quote
    moved Amendment No. 23:
    Time
    17:00
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness Morris of BoltonBaroness Morris of BoltonConservative
    Quote
    My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments Nos. 34 and 40, but first I wish to say how glad we are that the Government have listened to some of our concerns about the accountability and transparency of the powers that the clauses introduce. Their amendments go some way to provide the necessary scrutiny of such potentially draconian powers and they certainly improve Clauses 17 and 18 in many ways. We do not feel, however, that those amendments go far enough. They do not even begin to address our concern about the effect that the clauses will have on the relationship between the Learning and Skills Council and further education institutions, of which the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, so eloquently spoke. More importantly, they do not disguise the fact that the powers given by the clauses would damage the development of the further education sector as a whole and reduce the independence of individual colleges still further. The government amendments do nothing to change that; therefore, although we are glad that the Government are listening to this House and making a genuine effort to find a middle ground, the amendments are not enough. As my response to the government amendments may have led your Lordships to expect, we are very sympathetic to the amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley. They deal with exactly the point that the Government have failed to address: the effect that the clauses will have on the relationship between the Learning and Skills Council and further education institutions. Clause 17 provides for the Learning and Skills Council to take on an enormously powerful role. The Government have made it clear to us that they have no expectation of that power being used at all frequently. As we have heard, it has never been used by the Secretary of State. By their amendments, they have made any use of it much more transparent and accountable not only to Parliament but to the wider public. None of that makes any difference to the fact that the body that directs much of colleges’ funding, issues guidance and is generally a close and constant presence in the running of our colleges is being given the power to go in over the head of the governing body and sack staff, even to dismiss governors. The Liberal Democrat amendments make it considerably more likely that the powers will indeed be used only as a backstop in the most urgent cases. As such, they are very sensible and go a long way to improve the clauses. However, we do not feel that they can be amended sufficiently to guard against the harm we believe they will do. So, despite the best efforts of the Government to address our concerns, we have tabled amendments to leave out Clauses 17 and 18. We believe that these clauses are a step in entirely the wrong direction. Further education institutions need to be given more, not less, independence. They need to be trusted more by the Government, not hedged around with endless rules, regulations and micromanaged targets. The only way for this sector to gain the status and credibility it deserves, and which we desperately need it to achieve, is for the Government to give colleges and the governing bodies managing them the power to develop their own diverse, innovative and locally responsive strategies and direction. Frankly, the Government should know better than to continue with clauses like these. They have commissioned several reviews and reports, most recently the Leitch review, all of which have told them the same thing: colleges need to be trusted with real independence in order fully to achieve their potential. Yet the Government continue with this unprecedented level of interference. There is no suggestion that this degree of control will be appropriate for schools or universities, so why do the Government think it is appropriate for colleges? These powers will not only prevent the further education sector developing, they will actively damage it, which is why we propose the outright removal of the clauses rather than their modification. Giving the Learning and Skills Council these powers will erode the position of colleges’ governing bodies instead of encouraging governors to continue to maintain a keen and active interest in their colleges. The Government are taking responsibility away from them, for no discernible reason. As I said at Second Reading, the further education sector receives some of the best Ofsted reports. I should, however, make it quite clear that we are not against rigour or driving up standards. We are perfectly happy for these powers to continue to reside where they are at present: with the Secretary of State, who is elected and paid to take difficult decisions and is ultimately accountable to the electorate. In Clause 18 the proposed shift of powers to the Welsh Assembly is at least a shift to another body answerable to the electorate, but Fforwm, the Welsh sister body to the Association of Colleges, reports that colleges want these powers to remain with the Secretary of State. No doubt the Minister will tell me, as he did in Grand Committee, that these powers are very rarely used and are a last resort, but clearly not everyone sees them in that light. The morning after the Queen’s Speech, the “Today” programme said that there was to be a further education Bill to “sack college principals”, and in a press release in response to the Government’s White Paper that heralded the Bill now before noble Lords, the Learning and Skills Council referred more than once to poor provision being “cut out”. You can almost see the Learning and Skills Council salivating at being given this power. We too want to see the highest standards in our colleges, but if there is a need to intervene to remove a principal or members of the governing body, the power to do so should reside with the Secretary of State. Members on these Benches feel that these clauses are a significant step in the wrong direction and therefore would like to see them removed entirely. When it comes to the appropriate time, I shall seek the opinion of the House.
    Time
    17:00
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord Walton of DetchantLord Walton of DetchantCrossbench
    Quote
    My Lords, can the Minister identify any other body in the educational sector that is a funding organisation but assumes a regulatory and disciplinary role? Those are two totally different functions that ought to be separated completely. I agree entirely with the views expressed in the last two powerful speeches. These powers should remain with the Secretary of State.
    Time
    17:00
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness Warwick of UndercliffeBaroness Warwick of UndercliffeLabour
    Quote
    My Lords, I should like to speak briefly on Clause 17, and I declare an interest as chief executive of Universities UK. Like other noble Lords, I do not see the need for these provisions and do see the very strong arguments against introducing such potentially draconian micromanagement. In my view, governing bodies must retain overriding responsibility for the good management of their institutions, including the appointment and dismissal of senior staff. It is odd and incongruous that the Government should want to introduce the measures in Clause 17 at the same time as giving colleges substantial new responsibilities such as those set out in Clause 19. Given that the debates about Clause 19 have somewhat polarised opinion in the further education/higher education sector, I want to use this opportunity to stress that, despite opposition among university vice-chancellors to Clause 19, I share their widespread admiration for the work of the further education sector and the contribution it makes to education, including higher education, in the United Kingdom. So I too would like to see Clause 17 removed and therefore support Amendment No. 34, in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Morris of Bolton and Lady Verma. If that approach is not successful, I would certainly support the measures proposed by the noble Baronesses, Lady Walmsley and Lady Sharp of Guildford, in Amendment No. 26 as a sensible compromise.
    Time
    17:00
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness Howe of IdlicoteBaroness Howe of IdlicoteCrossbench
    Quote
    My Lords, as chair of the National Governors Association I firmly support the amendments.
    Time
    17:15
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    My Lords, in response to the noble Lord, Lord Walton, there are other bodies in education that have both regulatory and funding functions. Local education authorities, which fund and regulate nearly 24,000 schools in England, are both regulatory and funding bodies for those schools. The powers in these provisions are similar, in respect of objective failure and serious underperformance, to those that apply to schools at the behest of local education authorities in England. We have had substantial discussions on Clauses 17 and 18—
    Time
    17:15
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord Walton of DetchantLord Walton of DetchantCrossbench
    Quote
    My Lords, surely the responsibility for disciplining and removing teachers in schools now rests with the general education council?
    Time
    17:15
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    My Lords, where a local education authority exercises its powers to suspend a failing school’s delegated budget, it becomes the direct employer of the staff and can take decisions, including on the employment of teachers. The powers are comparable. However, I cannot stress too greatly, in response to the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, that these are in extremis powers to be used in cases of objective failure and underperformance. The autonomy of governing bodies to sustain failure, which is essentially the noble Baroness’s case, would not be supported by the Government or, I hope, by the noble Baroness on reflection. We are talking about cases of failure and underperformance that are demonstrated in inspection reports and are objective. We are not talking about any discretionary power to intervene that would undermine the proper autonomy and freedom of governing bodies of institutions that are running well to conduct that institution’s affairs. I hope that the distance between us is narrower than the noble Baroness portrayed. She was presenting a great point of principle that I do not believe pertains. If she were sitting where I am and had to take decisions about institutions that are failing and therefore offering a substandard education to their students, I am not sure that she would see it so much in terms of the absolute principle that she has set out. I understand that there are strong feelings because the powers, if exercised, are draconian. I would like to reassure the House that they would be used only in extremis. I would also like to speak to our Amendments Nos. 27 to 33 and 35 in this group, which, as the noble Baroness generously acknowledged, go some way to meeting the concerns set out in Grand Committee. My amendments would ensure that the failure policy under which the Learning and Skills Council is operating is approved by the Secretary of State and laid before the House. We believe that there will be proper accountability for the overall policy under which the Learning and Skills Council acts in this area. It is already accountable to the Secretary of State for a comprehensive framework that includes quarterly ministerial reviews and a performance forum that charts progress against annual targets. As I stressed, the amendments that I am moving will, over and above that, require the Secretary of State formally to approve and to lay the statement of intervention policy before each House of Parliament, which will further increase transparency and accountability. As the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, rightly said, cases of outright failure are extremely rare; nevertheless, we want to address more effectively and efficiently any such instances and those of inadequate provision. That is the reason for these powers. However, when it comes to intervening, in all cases the LSC will raise any concerns with the institution’s chair of governors and college principal and agree an appropriate way forward. Regardless of the scale of concern, the LSC will issue a notification to the institution setting out the agreed action arising from the initial discussion and monitor progress against that notification. In more serious cases a formal notice to improve will be issued, specifying the required improvements and a timescale of no more than 12 months to secure them. We believe it is right that providers have the opportunity to improve before any formal intervention takes place. That is another stage that has to be gone through before the formal intervention powers set out in the Bill could take effect. In cases of outright failure, where insufficient progress is made against the agreed improvement plan, and where the college is unable to demonstrate that it has the capacity and capability to bring about improvement, the LSC could consider the use of powers under Clause 17. Those powers might also be considered in exceptional circumstances where there is immediate and significant risk, such as fraud. The notice will specify any immediate action; for example, a direction to remove the chair of the governing body or to dismiss a specified senior member of staff. I stress, though, that the use of these powers must be relevant and appropriate in the given circumstances. The intervention policy that will be developed to set out the procedures will illustrate the circumstances when it would be appropriate to consider the direction to dismiss a senior office-holder. I stress again that these powers will not be unfettered. As a result of the government amendments I have just spoken to, the Secretary of State must approve the intervention policy. He will also retain the power to direct the LSC itself, should that be necessary. In addition to these powers, the LSC continues to be accountable to the Secretary of State through the comprehensive accountability framework. The judgment made on failure or unsatisfactory performance will not be imprecisely defined. The LSC’s published intervention policy will make clear precisely what is meant in practice. The precursor to that document, Identifying and Managing Underperformance, which I have made available to noble Lords, refers to providers who have been awarded a grade 4 by Ofsted inspectors, which is the most unsatisfactory inspection grade, and to situations where an area of provision is deemed to be unsatisfactory or where the LSC’s analysis of learner success rates shows that more then 25 per cent of provision falls below the minimum level of performance. The definitions we have in place now, as set out in the guidance document Identifying and Managing Underperformance, will, no doubt, be extensively debated during the consultation process that the LSC will be required to conduct as a result of government Amendment No. 29. We will take full account of the consultation undertaken as a result of that amendment. We expect that, in the vast majority of cases where failure is identified under the procedures I have just set out, the governing body would take the necessary action to improve performance before any intervention was needed. The LSC would continue to work with the governing bodies and to respect their autonomy during that process. I also reassure noble Lords, and reiterate for the record, that the LSC would only be able to direct dismissal where the governing body already has the power to dismiss under its own articles of association, so the role of the LSC would be akin to that of a local authority in a case of extreme failure on the part of a school. The corporation of the institution, which is normally the governing body, being the employer of the staff in an FE college, would continue as the employer, and this would not change that relationship. Where the LSC has invoked its power to direct a governing body to dismiss a member of staff, there will be a very clear evidence base for such a decision. That should provide sufficient evidence for governing bodies to successfully defend any claims of unfair dismissal under employment law. The Secretary of State’s retention of the powers to direct the LSC where he is satisfied that it would be appropriate to do so is also important in this matter. The noble Baroness, Lady Morris of Bolton, wished to press the principle of Clauses 17 and 18. I entirely respect her decision. However, on the point by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, if Clauses 17 and 18 remain in the Bill, we would be prepared to look sympathetically at her Amendment No. 26, which sets out a requirement for a further formal statutory process to be gone through. We would consider bringing back amendments at Third Reading to ensure that there is a further, formal statutory process whereby the principal of a college of further education has to be written to, along with the governing body, by the Learning and Skills Council. We would further require that that report must set out in writing, at the beginning of the process of intervention, the Learning and Skills Council’s concerns. I have given a good deal of reassurance about how these powers will be exercised. As I say, they are for cases of extreme failure. In that context, I hope that the House will feel able to continue to support Clauses 17 and 18.
    Time
    17:15
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord Roberts of ConwyLord Roberts of ConwyConservative
    Quote
    My Lords, the Minister’s Amendment No. 38 provides that Welsh Ministers must prepare a statement of their policy and so on, but it makes no reference to the necessity to secure approval from the Assembly for the statement.
    Time
    17:15
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    My Lords, my understanding is that they would need to secure that approval. I need to come back to the noble Lord to explain precisely what the arrangements would be.
    Time
    17:15
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness WalmsleyBaroness WalmsleyLiberal Democrat
    Quote
    My Lords, I am grateful for the Minister’s reply and for the support of the noble Baroness, Lady Morris of Bolton. I welcome the Government’s Amendments Nos. 27 and 33. The noble Lord, Lord Walton of Detchant, asked a question that was also asked in Grand Committee, when he was not in his place. The Minister’s reply was the same, and I will give the Minister the same response now: local authorities are elected bodies. That is our main objection to giving these powers to the LSCs—they are not elected bodies. The Minister asked the noble Baroness, Lady Morris of Bolton, whether she might think differently if she were sitting in his position. We accept that there are hard decisions to be made sometimes, but if I were sitting in the noble Lord’s position when these hard decisions had to be made, I would much rather recommend to the Secretary of State that he or she made those decisions than leave them to the unelected learning and skills councils. Like the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy, I am concerned that the Assembly for Wales should have the same powers of review of this policy that Parliament has on the English side.
    Time
    17:15
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    My Lords, I have now found the relevant page in my notes and can tell the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, that Welsh Ministers must consult as appropriate when preparing or revising their intervention policy statement. They must lay the document before the National Assembly for Wales and publish it. The Assembly will play a formal part in the process.
    Time
    17:15
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord Roberts of ConwyLord Roberts of ConwyConservative
    Quote
    My Lords, where is that statement?
    Time
    17:15
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    My Lords, it is in my explanation of the various amendments. I cannot point to the precise place, but I assure the noble Lord that it is there.
    Time
    17:15
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness WalmsleyBaroness WalmsleyLiberal Democrat
    Quote
    I am relieved to hear it, my Lords. As a resident of Wales, I would be drummed out otherwise. I am most grateful to the Minister for his comments about Amendment No. 26 and the Government’s undertaking to look kindly upon it, should Clause 17 remain in the Bill. In the light of his words, I will not press any of my amendments today. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendments Nos. 24 to 26 not moved.]
    Time
    17:15
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    moved Amendments Nos. 27 to 33:
    Time
    17:15
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness Morris of BoltonBaroness Morris of BoltonConservative
    Quote
    moved Amendment No. 34:
    Time
    17:15
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    moved Amendment No. 35:
    Time
    17:41
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    moved Amendment No. 38:
    Time
    17:41
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness Morris of BoltonBaroness Morris of BoltonConservative
    Quote
    moved Amendment No. 40:
    Time
    17:41
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    My Lords, I do not propose to divide the House because the clause refers to the same powers in respect of Wales as the noble Baroness has already moved be deleted in respect of England. We will therefore allow the amendment to proceed. On Question, amendment agreed to. Clause 19 [Power to award foundation degrees]:
    Time
    17:41
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    moved Amendment No. 41:
    Time
    17:41
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord DearingLord DearingCrossbench
    Quote
    My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment No. 43, which is in this group. I am in the unusual position of listening to a 20-minute reply to amendments I have tabled but not argued for. I am most grateful to the Minister—I am overwhelmed. If I may, I will take all four elements of my amendment. The first was that students must be consulted before an application is made for foundation degree-awarding powers. What the Minister said is excellent. It is a necessary condition for the award of powers that this consultation takes place. I take it that it is implicit in that provision that the outcome of that consultation will be notified to the QAA when it considers the application. I am well satisfied on that. The final part of my amendment—I will leave the two more difficult points until last—concerns a review after four years. The Minister explained why he has gone for six years—there is a precedent, but I have chosen another precedent for my four years. I am reassured, however, by the knowledge and his assurance that there will be an interim review after some unspecified period—probably around three years. That means that he has gone a long way towards my view that there needs to be an early review. I am well content to accept what he has said. I turn to the more difficult elements: one was franchising and the other was progression. On franchising, the Minister said that there has been some further thought about the information given in, I think, Section 8 of the notes that were circulated on 14 February. It provided that most of the learning had to take place in the institution that had the degree-awarding powers. He has now moved away from that to provide for those cases where much of the learning takes place in a company. I believe that there are a number of such cases where most, if not nearly all, learning takes place in a company. I think the Minister was saying that the “most” criterion now applies to an institution of further education that does not have degree-awarding powers. I can understand that, but I would like to read carefully what the Minister said. If a large proportion of, or “most”, learning is delivered in a company, I would be concerned if it were still permissible for some other part of it, say a quarter, to be delivered by a FE college without degree-awarding powers. I recognise that the Minister is making a substantial response to my amendment on this—it is a case of looking at the detail. I come finally to the issue of progression. I attach great weight to this for two reasons. First, because it concerns something worked for and paid for by a student in an FE college; it is called a foundation degree. We know now that 54 per cent of students progress from that to an honours degree. It is, therefore, essential to them that there should be this opportunity for progression. There should be no doubt about it that an FE college has a progression agreement with at least one higher education institution, and that the criteria should extend beyond bare existence of some such thing. It should be attainable, as an additional commitment to study, in some recognised, maximum period. One does not want to have to take two or three years to do the final year. I see in the notes that we were given that 1.3 years is regarded as a maximum—that seems right. I want to be absolutely clear about the intention of the Government. In his speech, the Minister said that the QAA has to be satisfied, at the time of submission, that the college has such an arrangement. We know that there are 700 foundation degrees under development. That is at the moment, and there will be hundreds more as time progresses. I want to be absolutely clear that the requirement applies not only to those that were being offered at the time of the application but will apply to any that are offered by the college at any time in the future. That seems fundamental. There is a second reason why I think this matter is important. The first reason was to do with a fair deal for the student. The second is to do with the assurance of quality. It is an assurance to me that the FE college must have an arrangement with an institution of higher education before it can offer a foundation degree. That seems to me a very important assurance that this foundation degree is of the nature of a degree in higher education in the United Kingdom. That is very important to every institution and to the nation given, as we recognised, the importance of the brand, which is not only worth billions of pounds a year in foreign exchange earnings but in attracting a good share of the ablest people in the world into our institutions. I see this as an assurance and one that I want to see going beyond the six years. As I understood what the Minister said, there will be a thorough check after six years, but thereafter it will be within the powers of the Privy Council to give an indefinite award. I want to be sure that when that happens, it is nevertheless a requirement that there should be an articulation arrangement with at least one university for every course; otherwise, the student will be short-changed and will be at risk. I am concerned about this being a thin end of a wedge. Things do not stand still. As I recall, the polytechnics served an apprenticeship of 20 years to get their degree-awarding powers. Until then, they were under the guidance of the CNAA. But they got those powers. Now we have a situation in which it was decided that there should be foundation degrees, but from a university even though they are delivered by an FE institution. Now we are moving on to say, “No, they will do it in their own right”. I am concerned that we shall move on from that to say, “Why should they not move to the full degree and become fully institutions in which a student can pursue the whole course in one place?” I can see advantages in that, but it changes the mission of the further education colleges. I am deeply concerned that they should stay with their mission because they constitute an engine room for skills for the whole economy. It is a natural aspiration for people to want to move up market, but we need people who concentrate on the engine room rather than go on to the bridge; they drive the ship. I am well content with what the Minister said on my amendment with regard to the students’ voice and the review. I listened to what the Minister said on the other two points. He has gone a long way to meet me. I should like to read precisely what he said on franchising; I hope to be fully reassured. On my last point on articulation, which I saved to the end, this is an enduring concern which goes beyond six years. It is an issue on which I may ask the House to listen to me again at Third Reading.
    Time
    18:00
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord Walton of DetchantLord Walton of DetchantCrossbench
    Quote
    My Lords, I can hardly believe that it is 14 years since the publication of the report of the Hamlyn Foundation’s National Education Commission, which I was privileged to chair. At that time we were very concerned about a number of issues relating to higher and further education. There has been a series of major developments since that time which are to be warmly commended. One of the things that we recommended at the time was the establishment of learning and skills councils. We also recommended that there should be a progressive move to a greater degree of parity of esteem as between academic and vocational qualifications. The further education sector has done a wonderful job in those intervening 14 years in providing proper standards of vocational education for many individuals who would not otherwise have benefited from that kind of educational experience. But it is fair to recognise that there is considerable anxiety—which I know will soon be articulated by the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick—in the university sector about the powers which this clause will now grant to further education colleges. The foundation degree launched in 2001 was always intended to provide a vocationally focused and academically rigorous route into higher education with built-in progression opportunities for foundation degree students who wanted to progress to honours degree level. There has been a rapid growth in foundation degree delivery, largely achieved through extensive and successful collaboration between higher and further education institutions. The universities have pointed out that more than 60,000 foundation degree students were registered by 2006 but that no university provided validation of those degrees without also providing tuition either directly or through a franchise agreement. The problem that I see with this clause is that it is likely to break, or at least to have the possible effect of breaking, that crucial link. Many universities are concerned that progression to higher education will be adversely affected and that higher education institutions will have less incentive to articulate foundation degrees with honours programmes, thus undermining the excellent progress that has been made towards building ladders of progression through lifelong learning networks. FE colleges do not currently have the power to award any other nationally recognised qualifications in their own right but only through recognised awarding bodies such as City and Guilds and BTEC. This clause will create an anomaly whereby FE colleges will be able to award HE-level qualifications but not those at FE level. Many HEIs have invested heavily in building collaborative relationships with FE colleges. These may be put at risk if they are in competition with each other over foundation degree programmes. I and many others who have a lifetime’s involvement in the university sector have concerns about the whole principle articulated in Clause 19. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, put the case very well and was very persuasive but I still cannot overcome those reservations about awarding foundation degree-awarding powers to FE colleges, whatever work the Quality Assessment Agency undertakes before they are given that power. I have concerns about the principles in Clause 19.
    Time
    18:15
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness Morris of BoltonBaroness Morris of BoltonConservative
    Quote
    My Lords, I thank the Government, the Minister, and in particular Bill Rammell for the genuine efforts that they have made over the past few weeks to listen to our concerns and those of interested organisations and for coming forward with amendments to address these points. There is no doubt that the government amendments improve Clause 19 considerably and address many of the concerns of Peers and outside groups. The draft guidance and explanatory material that the Government recently provided has informed and advanced the debate in many areas. We are very happy that the Government have decided to accept our recommendation that a report is laid before Parliament four years after the powers in this clause are implemented. This will give us an opportunity to scrutinise whether these safeguards have been sufficient, and to consider whether more are needed, or whether the proposals we are looking at today are enough. That will also do much to reassure people that the Government’s commitments on secondary legislation, which were given today and at other stages, are being effectively implemented. One of these ensures that the Privy Council will specify that further education institutions may only award foundation degrees for a period of six years before undergoing a comprehensive review by the QAA, prior to being considered suitable for awarding these powers in perpetuity. This review is critical and I would welcome any additional assurances that the Minister can offer on the rigour and thoroughness of the review. It is necessary to maintain the standards of foundation degrees and to ensure their continuing credibility in the eyes of students, employers and the higher education institutions that the students will, I hope, progress on to. Similarly, we are glad that the Government have tabled amendments to allow the Privy Council to restrict the abilities of further education institutions to accredit foundation degrees in other institutions. This franchising of the accrediting power has caused real concern, because of the enormous damage it could do to the foundation degree brand in a short time. Again, the Government’s reassurances that these powers will not be given until an institution has successfully completed its six-year review period will do much to restore faith in this clause. However, there is still one point on which we do not believe the Government have fully appreciated the strength of feeling. It has already been mentioned in other speeches: the relationship between higher education and further education, and progression from one end to the other of a foundation degree. The Government have assured us that they understand that this is one of the principal motivations for students undertaking a foundation degree, and have given some assurances about the continuing importance of articulation agreements between higher and further education, in order to ensure a good fit between the courses. On these Benches, we do not believe that it is enough. We fully support the principle behind proposed new subsection (6B) in the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, in his amendment on this clause. Putting the continuing progression from foundation degrees to honours degrees in the Bill is a necessary step for maintaining important relationships and to ensure the further success of foundation degrees. An unequivocal sign that a foundation degree is a higher education-level qualification, with commensurate standards of course content, teacher quality and the chance to convert the qualification into a level 6 honours degree, with the equivalent one more year of full-time study, is indispensable. Without this safeguard, this clause could still lead to the eventual development of two tiers of foundation degree, with those awarded by a higher education institution being considered more credible than those awarded by a further education college. This is something that must be guarded against at all costs. To put a requirement for ensuring progression in the Bill will introduce nothing that the Government have not already committed to in secondary legislation, but will address one of the last serious concerns that we on these Benches, and many elsewhere, have. I hope that the Minister will be able to continue in the spirit of engagement with this debate, and will ensure us that he will consider this point and bring back an amendment that encapsulates this principle at Third Reading. One of the great pleasures of debating this Bill has been speaking to many wonderful people whom we have in the further education sector. I have spoken to a number of principals, who say that you have to be aware that people going into foundation degrees are working, and studying part-time. Quite often, they will finish the foundation degree, probably be quite tired and therefore will not continue immediately. Or, because they have a foundation degree and work for a big company, they may be transferred elsewhere and not go back to the university where they had the original articulation agreement. It is important that those points are taken into consideration. I hope that everybody from the universities will recognise that. We are dealing with a very different kind of student, and it is important to encourage them as much as possible to go into higher education. Although I understand the desire to consult students, there is some concern in further education colleges over which students will be consulted. Will it be those who are already doing foundation degrees, or those who are doing other things, but may think about going on to degrees? Will this consultation be binding on the council of governors? It is very important that when a further education college has gone to a great deal of work and effort to put something in place, it cannot be overturned at a whim by somebody who may not even consider going on to do a foundation degree. I would also like the Minister to clarify something for the Association of Colleges’ sister organisation in Wales, fforwm. There was some confusion during the debate in the Welsh Assembly on this Bill as to whether Clause 26 was sufficient to allow the Welsh Assembly to enact similar legislation to enable Welsh colleges to award their own degrees. Although many Welsh Assembly Members thought that it would be, surely the Welsh Assembly has not been given the power to amend the Further and Higher Education Act 1992, and so has no ability to extend the Privy Council’s remit to cover Welsh further education colleges. Is this the case and, if so, can the Minister explain why the Government have not thought it necessary to extend the same potential to Welsh colleges as they have to English colleges—or, indeed, have they overlooked that?
    Time
    18:15
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness Warwick of UndercliffeBaroness Warwick of UndercliffeLabour
    Quote
    My Lords, I rise to support Amendment No. 43, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, and to welcome Amendments Nos. 41, 42 and 44, tabled by the Minister. In so doing, I declare my interest as chief executive of Universities UK. Since the Bill was published I have greatly appreciated the way Ministers and noble Lords from across the House have been willing to engage in really constructive debate about how Clause 19 could be improved. I do not want, at this stage in our debate, to rehearse the reasons I gave at Second Reading for believing that the measures in Clause 19 are a mistake. We are where we are. I recognise that the real task before this House is to define the improvements to the Bill that will prevent unintended consequences, about which I—and many other Peers—have had concerns. As the Minister said, the two issues that have become the focus of attention—and which have been reaffirmed by virtually every speaker—are addressed in Amendments Nos. 41 and 43, and relate to progression and the franchising of courses. I shall deal with franchising first. The Bill, as currently drafted, would give colleges that gain foundation-degree-awarding powers the right to validate courses delivered by other third-party institutions, both in the UK and abroad. The Minister has made some very welcome commitments on that front but, as I said earlier, further education colleges will be taking on primary responsibility for the quality and standards of their own foundation degree qualifications for the first time. To allow them to validate provision in third-party institutions at the same time would substantially increase the risks to reputation and quality management. The measures in Clause 19 already pose risks to reputation; therefore it is right to proceed cautiously. It is clear from what my noble friend has said that the Government have accepted this. Indeed the Minister’s amendment gives the Privy Council the power to exclude the right to authorise other institutions to grant awards on behalf of an institution newly in receipt of foundation degree-awarding powers. In the package of information published on 11 February it is made clear—and the Minister reaffirmed this—that the Privy Council will be advised to apply this restriction for the first six years only. As I understand it, at the end of that period a college will have to re-apply for foundation degree-awarding powers and the Privy Council will be encouraged to grant unlimited powers, both in terms of time and the right to franchise their courses. I very much welcomed what my noble friend said in presenting his amendments. I can see why the Government have done this, but I do not, on reflection, believe that it goes far enough. The Government have made it clear from the outset that they envisage only a small number of colleges, which already deliver a large volume of foundation degrees and have substantial experience in this area, gaining these powers. I cannot believe that it was intended that the further education sector should, at any stage, be able to establish consortia whereby a small number of colleges validate foundation degrees in a wide range of partner colleges, effectively cutting universities out of the loop possibly across a whole region. That could happen; indeed, we have heard reports that that is already the intention of a group of London colleges.
    Time
    18:15
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness WalmsleyBaroness WalmsleyLiberal Democrat
    Quote
    My Lords, we on these Benches have always supported the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, and note with pleasure the Government’s intentions in relation to most of the matters within it. The guidance published in advance of this Report stage has been helpful. Noble Lords will note that we on these Benches have not re-tabled our amendments which sought to restrict award-making powers to particular courses or departments, given that we have been convinced during our consultations since Grand Committee that any college which reaches the quality required by the Privy Council would have sufficient internal quality control procedures to ensure that such a college was not likely to put on the market a degree from a weak department. The market would sort that out, anyway. On progression, I shall not reiterate what has been said by three noble Lords, but we share their concerns. I have a feeling that there will be some chat about this matter between now and Third Reading, and we might come back to it. I am particularly keen on the ban on franchising in new subsection (6C) of the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Dearing. We believe that the whole matter of degree-awarding powers is a major step that should be carried out with extreme caution—a bit at a time and with appropriate safeguards. Therefore, we welcome Government Amendments Nos. 41 and 42 and the thought that the Government have put into making appropriate arrangements for work-based learning. I note that new subsection (6D) in the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, is a sort of probationary period and I welcome the statement in the guidance that a college would have to be reviewed after six years, rather than four. It seems appropriate that the number of years should be consistent across the sector. But, from the point of view of the student, to have a foundation degree from an institution which, at the end of the probationary period, lost the power to award degrees, would call into question the validity of the degree that the student had already obtained. Is there any way of safeguarding the quality of that degree during the probationary period, should the institution not retain degree-awarding powers after the six-year period? Perhaps a mentor university could be appointed that could guarantee the quality of the degrees awarded during the probationary period. In the interests of the student, some though will need to be given to that if that happens, because not every college will get through its probationary period and go on to be given powers to award foundation degrees in perpetuity. At least one or two could very well not make it, and we need to think about the degrees obtained by such students. Can the Minister consider that idea?
    Time
    18:30
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness BlackstoneBaroness BlackstoneLabour
    Quote
    My Lords, like other speakers in this debate, I am grateful to my noble friend the Minister and to the Minister of State for Lifelong Learning, Further and Higher Education for taking part in a number of conversations on how we might improve Clause 19. As the Minister knows, I am unhappy about the introduction of this change by the Government, but, as my noble friend Lady Warwick has said, we are where we are, the pass has now been sold and those of us who were against the principle now have to think about how we qualify the measure to ensure that damage is not done. At this stage, we need to focus on the commitment made by the Government at Second Reading, which has not yet emerged in this debate, to limit the number of FE colleges that would gain power to validate their own foundation degrees. It was said that that would involve only a very small number of colleges of the highest quality. That seems to have been forgotten in this debate. We have had much discussion this evening on ensuring progression, on which I wish to say more, because I share the concerns expressed by other speakers. As they have said, we need to proceed with caution, particularly on franchising, to which I wish to return, also. I also want to say a little more about the review, because I would like to learn more from the Minister about its precise nature. So far, I am not convinced that we have anything to hold on to in ensuring that this power will not become exercisable by all, or nearly all, FE colleges. We need some minimum threshold for the number of students pursuing HE courses in further education colleges before they move to validating their own higher education programmes in the shape of foundation degrees. There needs to be a significant number of such students to provide an appropriate environment for them and the economies of scale necessary to provide the appropriate library, laboratory and IT facilities cost-effectively. However, I strongly welcome the Government’s proposal for what is, basically, a six-year probationary period. It is a step in the right direction. I am also glad to hear that further education colleges will not get the powers established by Clause 19 without having some articulation arrangements. However, there is no requirement in the Bill; as speakers from all sides of the House have made clear, that is what we need. Reiterating what others have said, I hope that the Government will come forward at Third Reading with an amendment that puts it in the Bill. Having worked closely with the Association of Colleges for some years, I hate to say this, but I find some of its briefing a little worrying. Of course, as the noble Baroness, Lady Morris of Bolton, has said, many students who do foundation degrees do not want to progress to honours degrees, but many want to. The AoC also claims that, although some students may want to progress in another direction, they do not want to do honours degrees. Again, this is true; they may want to acquire professional qualifications instead. However, many universities are providing just such programmes to achieve professional qualifications, especially the post-1992 ones. There should be an articulation between foundation degrees and these sorts of qualifications, as well as appropriate honours degrees. I strongly support what others have said about the need for further thinking about this. Given the Government’s commitment to rigorous quality controls, it seems odd that further education colleges will not only be able to validate their own degrees but will eventually be able to validate the degrees of other institutions and form consortia of FE colleges to do that for them. That takes FE colleges away from their main mission of delivering level 2 and 3 qualifications to the many hundreds of thousands of young people and adults who need them to gain satisfactory jobs and to have worthwhile careers in our economy, where these skills are in all-too-short supply. I have to confess that I found it a little hard to follow everything that the Minister was saying about what is being put into the guidance. I feel that all the concerns that my noble friend Lady Warwick expressed are valid. Frankly, I do not think that we should ever give FE colleges the role of franchising. I do not think it is part of their mission to undertake such work. I strongly support proposed new subsection (6D) of the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, and Amendment No. 44, which the Government brought forward, for which I am grateful to them. However, such a review should be independent, and that should be provided in the Bill. It should not be done by civil servants in the Department for Education and Skills, however much I respect those officials. Will the Minister confirm that it is the intention that this review should be independent? Such a review should look at the impact of Clause 19 on FE colleges in a very general way. It should not simply be about the quality of foundation degrees. The review should look at the clause’s effect on the mainstream work of further education, on the vocational programmes that they provide for adults and young people below level 4 and on important areas such as basic skills courses for adults. As the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, said, there is a long and rather sad history of post-school education institutions neglecting their lower-level work or even dropping it as soon as they are encouraged to start focusing on higher-level qualifications. Were that to happen, it would be a disaster for our FE college system and indeed for the nation.
    Time
    18:30
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Baroness O'Neill of BengarveBaroness O'Neill of BengarveCrossbench
    Quote
    My Lords, do the Government object to putting in the Bill a provision stating that those FE colleges that have the power to award foundation degrees should have an articulation agreement with one or more HEI, to ensure that students who successfully complete the foundation degree are entitled to progress to an honours degree? That question goes to the heart of many of the worries. Although the Minister gave considerable assurances, I do not see that in his amendments and I wonder whether the Government object to putting that into the Bill.
    Time
    18:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    My Lords, when I presented the government amendments, I spoke for 22 minutes, which had my noble friend the Chief Whip scurrying into the Chamber, wondering whether I was launching a filibuster against my own Bill. I dealt with virtually all the points raised—I did not necessarily persuade noble Lords—but I did present the Government’s case, so I hope that the House will forgive me if I do not reply again to them. I want to go to the heart of the issues in the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, around which the debate has focused, and summarise where I think we are. I took the noble Lord to say that he believed that we were broadly there on student voice, on a probationary period for further education colleges in being awarded degree-awarding powers in the first instance, and on franchising, subject to him studying carefully the long explanation that I gave on how the arrangements will work and the controls that will be in place. The fourth issue was articulation agreements, in respect of which I believe that we have in place the most robust requirements in what we will say in the QAA’s draft criteria document, which I shall make available to noble Lords shortly. However, I hear all the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, and others, and undertake that my honourable friend the Minister for Further and Higher Education and I will consider them further to see whether it might be advantageous to have something in the Bill when we come back on Third Reading. The review after four years was warmly welcomed on all sides. My noble friend Lady Blackstone asked whether it would be independent and whether the scope could be broadened. I undertake that we will consider both those issues, and I will return to the House on them later. The only other point on which I think I should respond now is that of Wales; having not been able to give an answer in respect of Wales earlier, I certainly do not feel that I can let it pass a second time. The noble Baroness, Lady Morris, asked whether Clause 26 would be wide enough to allow the National Assembly for Wales to pass measures similar to Clause 19. The answer is no. She is correct that Westminster would need to legislate for that to be possible, unless an Order in Council were made to give the National Assembly the measure-making power. However, it is not the policy of the National Assembly to take that power at present, so the issue does not arise. On that basis, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, will feel able not to press his amendment.
    Time
    18:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord DearingLord DearingCrossbench
    Quote
    My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for what he has said. He understands fully the arguments that have been made for getting the articulation agreement, especially, into the Bill. It is not something that has validity for only six years, but is a perpetual requirement. On the basis that he shows that there is to be thought, I will gladly not press Amendment No. 43. On Question, amendment agreed to.
    Time
    18:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    moved Amendment No. 42:
    Time
    18:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    moved Amendment No. 44:
    Time
    18:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    moved Amendments Nos. 45 and 46:
    Time
    18:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    moved Amendments Nos. 47 and 48:
    Time
    18:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    moved Amendment No. 50:
    Time
    18:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    moved Amendments Nos. 51 to 55:
    Time
    18:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    moved Amendments Nos. 56 and 57:
    Time
    18:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    moved Amendments Nos. 58 to 65:
    Time
    18:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗
  • Speaker
    Lord AdonisLord AdonisLabour
    Quote
    moved Amendment No. 66:
    Time
    18:45
    Source
    View in Hansard ↗