Committee stage in the Lords
- Speaker
Lord Ashley of StokeLabour- Quote
- My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to. House in Committee accordingly. [The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Viscount Simon) in the Chair.] Clause 1 [General principles]:
- Time
- 16:17
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Baroness Darcy de KnaythCrossbench- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 1:
- Time
- 16:17
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Baroness Royall of BlaisdonLabour- Quote
- I realise that it is not the Government’s position to respond formally to these amendments, but I thought that it might be useful to the noble Baroness to know what the Government’s view is. I have, as noble Lords know, been privileged to speak for the Government on two previous occasions in responding to the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Ashley—a wonderful and extraordinary campaigner, who has done so much to improve the lives of people with disabilities. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to two noble Lords who are not in their places today; I am sure that they would wish to be here but they cannot be because of ill health—the noble Lord, Lord Rix, and my noble friend Lady Wilkins. We wish them well. I hope that I have made clear to your Lordships just how committed the Government are in supporting independent living for disabled people. I well understand and appreciate why the noble Baroness, Lady Darcy de Knayth, has suggested the changes in the amendments to protect children and young people from unnecessary levels of responsibility in caring for disabled parents and other family members. The Princess Royal Trust for Carers does a fantastic job. We thank it, especially for its work with children and young people. As noble Lords may be aware, my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced the New Deal for Carers on 21 February. A key component of that new deal will be a review of the Government's strategy on carers. This is a pan-government strategy and I will ensure that the point at issue about the well-being of children who care for sick or disabled people is drawn to the attention of those charged with the review of the strategy.
- Time
- 16:17
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Ashley of StokeLabour
- Quote
- We have just heard two excellent speeches, which began the debate with great understanding and which I commend very warmly. I am glad to say that I accept the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Darcy de Knayth. One of the greatest scandals of our social care system is that children can be robbed of their childhood by the failure of statutory services to provide the necessary services. These amendments deal with that issue, so I am happy to accept them.
- Time
- 16:17
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness Darcy de KnaythCrossbench
- Quote
- I thank the noble Lord for accepting the amendments and I thank the Minister very much for saying that she will draw the attention of the government strategy review to this debate. I think that the Office for Disability Issues has another independent living review. Perhaps she could update us on that. I thank her very much for the letter that I received today on the issue that I raised on Second Reading: how the age equality regulations will impact on specialist agencies employing carers for severely disabled people, which is a very demanding job for people above a certain age. I draw the Committee’s attention to the fact that the Minister has today placed a copy of the letter in the Library and I thank her for the very sympathetic way in which she has handled the issue. I am delighted that the amendments will be accepted. On Question, amendment agreed to. Clause 1, as amended, agreed to. Clause 2 agreed to. Clause 3 [Interpretation]:
- Time
- 16:17
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness Darcy de KnaythCrossbench
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 2:
- Time
- 16:17
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Ashley of StokeLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 3:
- Time
- 16:17
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Baroness Gardner of ParkesConservative- Quote
- I congratulate the noble Lord on his patience and perseverance in having made all these technical changes. I am sorry to say that I was the person from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee who drew his attention to them, but he has clearly done a good job, and I support the amendments.
- Time
- 16:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness Royall of BlaisdonLabour
- Quote
- I promised not to speak too long on the Bill. I shall say simply that, in the context of the Bill, my noble friend’s amendments appear to be very sensible and reflect exactly what the noble Baroness and the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee said. As noble Lords are aware, the Government have set out a 20-year strategy to improve provision and services for disabled people. I explained at Second Reading the many initiatives that we already have in place and in the pipeline. I believe that the Government can be proud of what has been achieved to date. We recognise that much more is still to be achieved, but we believe that huge strides have already been made and that the right foundations are in place to ensure continued progress. The Government do not believe that we have a monopoly of wisdom on what is needed for continued improvement. We will continue to listen to, and to learn from, all those with an interest and knowledge in this field. However, the Government remain unconvinced of the need for legislation of this nature and at this time. I assure the Committee that the Government share wholeheartedly the commitment of the noble Lord, Lord Ashley, to the principles underlying the Bill. However, there are undoubtedly some aspects of the Bill with which we would disagree or which we believe are already achieved through existing provisions. There would also be major cost implications in implementing all that is proposed here, especially at the pace implied. The noble Baroness, Lady Darcy de Knayth, asked earlier about the independent living review, which I announced last year. It will report this summer. This 12-month project, led by Jenny Morris with the help of an expert panel chaired by Dame Jane Campbell, is considering whether any changes to legislation are needed to support independent living. Here I should like to congratulate Dame Jane Campbell on being nominated as a People’s Peer. We look forward very much to welcoming her and benefiting from her great expertise in this House. The panel is developing a five-year strategy to deliver independent living for disabled people. However, it is not possible at this stage to make any statements about the final recommendations of the project. All of this demonstrates our shared commitment with my noble friend Lord Ashley, but we do not believe it is necessary to deliver our common goals by means of imposing legislation, at least until we have the results of the important review of independent living. I am grateful to my noble friend for again giving us the opportunity to discuss these extremely important issues.
- Time
- 16:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Ashley of StokeLabour
- Quote
- I appreciate the comments made by my noble friend, but I disagree with her about the timing. I believe that we should get on with things now rather than wait. We have had many investigations, inquiries and reports and we could go on like that without ever reaching a determined end. I am confident that my noble friend has the welfare of disabled people very much at heart and that she will do all she can. None the less, my fear is that, with the Government adopting this position, things will just drag on while the need for strong legislation is urgent. However, I accept what she has said. On Question, amendment agreed to.
- Time
- 16:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Ashley of StokeLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendments Nos. 4 and 5:
- Time
- 16:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord AddingtonLiberal Democrat- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 6:
- Time
- 16:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord SkelmersdaleConservative- Quote
- While I was chairman of the Stroke Association, as I was for 10 years, I would have reacted like a scorpion to the second of these amendments. Unless the noble Lord, Lord Addington, intends the organisations referred to in Amendment No. 7 to be provided by the taxpayer, they would also have to cover the various charities which do such enormously good work for disabled people. I would be very surprised if many of those charities would agree to such an amendment to this Bill or any government legislation, should they come forward with yet another amending Bill to the Disability Discrimination Act.
- Time
- 16:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Ashley of StokeLabour
- Quote
- I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Addington, on this amendment. It would be prudent to include specific reference in Clause 4 to advice and advocacy for disabled people and to funding for disability organisations. This business of advocacy is vital for disabled people, and it must be considered as part of the national independent living strategies. I applaud the work done by the National Centre for Independent Living in supporting disabled people with direct payments and building the capacity of local support groups in spite of inadequate funding, and indeed its work in campaigning for the Bill. It has been vociferous in its advocacy of the Bill. I readily accept the amendments.
- Time
- 16:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord AddingtonLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- Despite the warning shot from the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, I believe that those organisations for disabled people have to be in the Bill because they are such a bank of knowledge. We may be able to correct the wording slightly, but their information must be in here. I suggest that the amendments will strengthen the Bill. On Question, amendment agreed to.
- Time
- 16:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord AddingtonLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 7:
- Time
- 16:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 7A:
- Time
- 16:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord AddingtonLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- The register of housing availability sounded like a good idea when I first heard about it when the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, and I were working on the previous Bill. It is still a good idea; it still offers tremendous savings. If this is not the right way of bringing it into this Bill, I would be interested in seeing one that is.
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness Royall of BlaisdonLabour
- Quote
- I thank the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, both for giving me advance notice of his amendment and for explaining why he has suggested this addition to the Bill. I well understand his interest, and that of the noble Lord, Lord Addington, in the availability of accessible accommodation to meet the needs of disabled people, which is very important. I made inquiries of the DCLG, which confirmed that it does not hold a central record of the number of local authorities that maintain an accessible housing register. Therefore, I regret that I cannot answer his question in terms how many local authorities have such a register. It was commented that such registers can save money, as the example in Bradford which the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, cited shows. They would therefore seem to be an excellent idea for that reason as well as for all the reasons that he suggested. The Government are still very much in favour of the voluntary approach, as outlined by my noble friend Lady Hollis in the debate to which the noble Lord referred. However, as the circular clearly has not been updated—perhaps it was not even properly circulated—the DCLG should perhaps give attention to it. I will certainly discuss with my noble friend Lady Andrews whether the circulars could at least be updated and some measure taken to ensure that all local authorities were aware of their duty to make them widely available.
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Ashley of StokeLabour
- Quote
- It was good of the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, to apologise for not letting me know about the amendment, but he need not have bothered because the grapevine here is so brilliant that I heard about it within two seconds of his deciding to put it down. I was therefore well aware of it. I cannot understand why the previous Administration resisted such a sensible suggestion. I strongly support the amendment.
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
- Quote
- I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Ashley, for those comments. I am also grateful to the Minister for doing her best at very short notice to answer my question. However, it is not satisfactory to have a paragraph in a circular such as this from the DCLG. There is no record of what, if anything, it has produced. The Government do not want to legislate in this area and are in favour of continuing the voluntary approach. If the voluntary approach is not working, it is the Government’s duty to fix it. On Question, amendment agreed to.
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Ashley of StokeLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 8:
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Ashley of StokeLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 9:
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Ashley of StokeLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 10:
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness Darcy de KnaythCrossbench
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 11:
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness Darcy de KnaythCrossbench
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 12:
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Ashley of StokeLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 13:
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord AddingtonLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 14:
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Ashley of StokeLabour
- Quote
- I am happy to accept both amendments. Clearly the more information we can disseminate, the better. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Addington, and to the organisation Age Concern for taking such a close interest in the Bill. On Question, amendment agreed to. Clause 13, as amended, agreed to. Clause 14 [Duty to make arrangements]:
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Ashley of StokeLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 15:
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness Darcy de KnaythCrossbench
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 16:
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Ashley of StokeLabour
- Quote
- The Guide Dogs for the Blind Association is doing a very good job, especially on this issue. I join the noble Baroness, Lady Darcy de Knayth, and the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, in supporting this amendment. I am happy to accept it. On Question, amendment agreed to.
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Ashley of StokeLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendments Nos. 17 to 19:
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Ashley of StokeLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendments Nos. 20 to 22:
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord AddingtonLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 23:
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Ashley of StokeLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 24:
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Ashley of StokeLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendments Nos. 25 and 26:
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Ashley of StokeLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 27:
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Ashley of StokeLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendments Nos. 28 and 29:
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Ashley of StokeLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 30:
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Ashley of StokeLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 31:
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Ashley of StokeLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendments Nos. 32 and 33:
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Ashley of StokeLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 34:
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Ashley of StokeLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendments Nos. 35 to 37:
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Ashley of StokeLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 38:
- Time
- 16:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗