Report stage in the Lords
- Speaker
Lord Lloyd of BerwickCrossbench- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 5:
- Time
- 17:20
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord Wallace of TankernessLiberal Democrat- Quote
- My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble and learned Lord for giving way. What is the intended territorial jurisdiction of the amendment? Does it intend to cover Northern Ireland and Scotland as well as England?
- Time
- 17:20
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Lloyd of BerwickCrossbench
- Quote
- My Lords, that is a very sound question. I am proposing the amendment in relation to a single commissioner who would cover all three jurisdictions, but it may well be the position if the amendment were accepted that we would require separate commissioners for each of the jurisdictions. What are the objections to the amendment? Two objections have been put forward by the noble Lord in his recent letter. The first objection was that there is already an independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, in the shape of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, who is not here today. The new commissioner’s job would be quite different. He would not be advising the Government on terrorism legislation; he would be making sure on the ground that the police were getting on with their investigation. Unlike the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, he would not be reporting to the Government after the event. He would be reporting before the event to the judge who was granting the extension on whether to extend the period of detention. There is another reason why a new appointment would not duplicate the work of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile. Terrorist prisoners are often transferred from Paddington Green to prison after 14 days. The noble Lord, Lord West, says that that is all right because they would then be subject to the oversight of Her Majesty’s Inspector of Prisons. With respect, that misses the whole point, which is to have someone who will follow the case right through from the moment the suspect is arrested to the moment when he is charged. To split the job between the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, and Her Majesty’s Inspector of Prisons would not be a sensible way ahead, if indeed it would even be feasible. The second point made by the noble Lord in his recent letter is equally wide of the mark. He said that the suspect’s own lawyer would be present at the application to extend the time, and he could cross-examine the investigating officer to challenge the application “rigorously”. I think that is the word that he uses. The short answer to that is that the suspect’s own lawyer, however rigorous he might be, would not have access to the closed material, without which effective cross-examination would not be possible. I invite the House to accept the amendment, which would fill a small but important gap in the present scheme of things. It would also do more than anything to reassure ethnic minorities that when suspects are detained the police are complying with their obligations under the law. That must be a desirable objective. I beg to move.
- Time
- 17:20
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Baroness Neville-JonesConservative- Quote
- My Lords, we support this important amendment. The noble and learned Lord said that the gap may be small, but it is important. There is a lacuna in the current system of real-time monitoring. The noble and learned Lord mentioned that the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, reports annually on the operation of relevant counterterrorism legislation, which is obviously an ex post facto activity. The importance of the amendment is that it would enable monitoring in real time. Real-time monitoring would result in the capacity for input into the way in which hearings are conducted and decisions to extend pre-charge detention are made. There is currently no oversight of the practical operation of the relevant codes of practice, and the same is true of independent custody visitors. Given the significant concern about the nature of closed hearings which decide whether to extend pre-charge detention—and it should be remembered that in a closed hearing there is no capacity for external consideration—an independent assessment and an assurance from an individual who would be entitled to have, and would have, intimate familiarity with the developing case would be particularly valuable. The amendment has the advantage, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, said, of being based on practical experience of an extremely relevant kind in Northern Ireland. This is not an untried idea. Given that the extension of pre-charge detention from 14 to 28 days is already an exceptional power, it is important to put in place appropriate monitoring, because we are already facing an important departure from normal practice. My final point is that the amendment would reassure the public, particularly minority groups, that suspects were not being held unnecessarily—the noble and learned Lord started with that point—and that the charge would come at the right moment. That would mean that the power would not be suspected of being used in an oppressive manner.
- Time
- 17:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord Mayhew of TwysdenConservative- Quote
- My Lords, anyone who heard the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, would not be surprised that I strongly support the amendment. He generously referred to my paternity of it. In a display of equal generosity, I must acknowledge that the paternity is shared, because when I started in Northern Ireland in 1992, I picked up a recommendation of the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, who is in his place, that there should be independent monitoring of the three holding centres in Northern Ireland. In the middle of August that year I asked Sir Louis Blom-Cooper to undertake a task of that character, which he generously accepted. In December that year, I appointed him, and was able to do that administratively by announcing it in an Answer to a Written Question. I support the amendment, because it serves at least two desirable objectives. The first is the avoidance of any oppression or unfairness by police who are holding suspects of terrorist offences in exceptional circumstances. That has to be the first objective. The second objective is that the amendment would forestall, or go a very long way to forestalling, at a subsequent trial any bogus allegation raised to the effect that there had been unfairness in the rendering of a confession statement, which would be inadmissible evidence. In Northern Ireland, although the same is true here, such allegations were very common; one might even say that they were standard in terrorist centres. On each occasion it was necessary thereafter to try that issue in a trial within the trial, which for some reason that, I dare say, is familiar to lawyers in this House—although I have never got to the bottom of it—was known by its Norman French name of a voir dire. That could typically take as much as 20 days to determine, with evidence and counterevidence going back and forth, which held up the trial and added considerable expense. What was needed was some objective, impartial evidence to corroborate the evidence of the interrogating police which could not be gainsaid. There was strong judicial support for an innovation of that kind in Northern Ireland. That was why we went along the road that has been described. Sir Louis took on, and was assisted by, a deputy, Dr William Norris, who is a psychiatrist. Their terms of reference, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, said, are to a considerable extent replicated in this amendment. I spoke to Sir Louis today. The proof of the pudding is that he confirmed to me that after his appointment, for the eight years that he held the post in Northern Ireland, there was made no single complaint of impropriety having occurred in the course of interrogation in the centres, which would have led to a voir dire during the subsequent trial. Questioning or behaviour alleged to have taken place in the police car after an arrest remained a very different matter. However, the lack of complaints was an extraordinarily effective consequence of the innovation. Video and audio recording were introduced later, and we shall deal with those matters in a later amendment. In his first report, Sir Louis recommended video and audio recording—it was possible to include them some time later—which were a much better vehicle for securing justice in the context that I have described. I should perhaps have added a third beneficial objective: the reassurance of the public, who very properly are suspicious and anxious about the kind of powers that are necessarily conferred by the various anti-terrorism Acts. The public would be reassured that no unfairness characterised the detention of terrorism suspects before or after being charged in a detention centre, which, in England, is at Paddington Green. Annual reports were laid before Parliament. Anyone who knows Sir Louis Blom-Cooper will not be surprised to learn that they were extraordinarily detailed, balanced, fair, diligent and impressive. Sir Louis very quickly secured in a series of unannounced visits, sometimes at 2 am or 3 am, the confidence of all concerned in the administration of this aspect of justice. Therefore, there are sound reasons for following that precedent and I very much hope that the Minister will think again before he insists on opposing the amendment for the reasons mentioned by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd.
- Time
- 17:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Viscount Colville of CulrossCrossbench- Quote
- My Lords, I take this opportunity to recollect an unannounced visit that I made to Castlereagh with Sir Louis. At the time, I was the reviewer of the legislation and I reported to the noble and learned Lord, who was the Secretary of State. There was a profound difference between my function and that of Sir Louis. I reported retrospectively after quite a long time had elapsed, whereas Sir Louis went while the investigation was still going on. That was the fundamental difference in our roles. He could see what was happening in the holding centre and, if anything was wrong, he would see it on the spot. I could not correct it later in the annual report that I presented to Parliament any more than the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, can do today, and therefore I support what my noble and learned friend Lord Lloyd has suggested.
- Time
- 17:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord Thomas of GresfordLiberal Democrat- Quote
- My Lords, it is a privilege to follow two noble Lords with such experience in this area. I am taken back to the days of the voir dire, which led to a cottage industry in my profession. Particularly in Hong Kong, as I recall, six or seven weeks would be spent on the voir dire in determining whether a confession had been properly obtained. The illustration of the point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, is as follows. When we discussed the 42-days issue, it emerged that no judge had ever refused an application by the police to extend the time allowed under the terrorism legislation. I think that there was one instance when a few days less than that asked for had been ordered by the judge but, by and large, the judge has nothing before him except the application from the police or security services saying that it is essential to continue the line of questioning. There is nothing to check at all. A person such as the commissioner, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, advocates, would be in a proper position not only to monitor the way in which the prisoner was being held, particularly in a police station, but to ensure that any interrogation was necessary, giving a second, independent voice to the judge, who has to make the decision on whether the period of time is to be extended. That is the value of the amendment and it is why we on these Benches support it.
- Time
- 17:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord DearCrossbench- Quote
- My Lords, I should point out to noble Lords who are not familiar with Latin or Norman French that this is not another example of voir dire; the spelling is rather different. I shall be very brief in supporting the amendment. The case has been admirably set out by my noble and learned friend Lord Lloyd. Three reasons for supporting him are present in my mind: the amendment obviates any suggestion of oppression; it obviates the false allegations, of which we have heard plenty already; and it is patently fair—almost transparent, one might say—and would give huge reassurance to the general public, not least to minority groups. In addition, the costs would be marginal compared with the gains that would be made. I support the amendment.
- Time
- 17:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
The Earl of OnslowConservative- Quote
- My Lords, I am very pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, reminded the House that no judge has refused a police application. On the JCHR, we heard evidence of quite short periods of interrogation and of very long periods of languishing in cells during the extended time. I suspect that, if the amendment were accepted, the process could even pay for itself by speeding up the interrogation time, leading to either earlier charging or earlier release, because it would have the effect of making the police act more diligently. I am not criticising the police. If people are given chances to do things, they will always take them. That is part of human nature; it is how people behave. I support the amendment for that reason and, above all, because it would avoid allegations of people being beaten up behind a bike shed and so on, which people would undoubtedly make if there were not open and transparent supervision. It would make it easier to get convictions and proper interrogation, and it is in everyone’s interests that the amendment is agreed to. We are not asking for a vast sum to be spent; we are simply asking for something which, I suggest, will make life easier for everyone.
- Time
- 17:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Baroness Manningham-BullerCrossbench- Quote
- My Lords, I support the amendment but I wish to make a couple of comments—one in defence of the police. It has absolutely not been my experience that they are in any way dilatory in interrogating terror suspects, which often involves the collation of vast amounts of information. They work at great speed under enormous pressure, doing hours that break every EU working time directive. Therefore, I should like to defend my colleagues. That said, I think that the amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, is useful.
- Time
- 17:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Baroness Falkner of MargravineCrossbench- Quote
- My Lords, the point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, about restoring—or perhaps “building in” if “restoring” is inappropriate—confidence in ethnic minority communities is extremely valuable. We know that one particular community—the Muslim community—is, on the whole, the subject of much of the plethora of terrorism legislation that we have seen in the past decade or so, and deservedly so because that is where part of the problem lies. I do not think that anyone in this debate is implying that the police are at all dilatory in carrying out their functions. In order to build in confidence on the part of the community in the criminal justice system and in this particular system, there should be transparency, and the people who are held for long periods without charges being laid against them should be aware that an independent person is keeping an eye on things as they unfold and they should know that they have access to that person should anything untoward occur. Of course, that does not imply that anything untoward would occur but it would build in a safeguard. On that basis, I add my voice to those of others on these Benches in supporting the amendment.
- Time
- 17:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord GoldsmithLabour- Quote
- My Lords, I want to raise one issue. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew of Twysden, made some very powerful points but I think that there is an element of misunderstanding. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas, talked, as did other noble Lords, about the police making the applications and not acting swiftly enough. One thing that we did when the time was extended from 14 to 28 days was make it clear that applications for extra time should be made by the prosecutors. The prosecutors have a professional responsibility—although I am not saying that the police do not—to come to the judges to say, “This is necessary. This is being conducted with due diligence”. They are the people who have to take responsibility and make the applications. That is one aspect of this issue. It does not meet many of the other points that have been made but, in fairness to those who made them and to the police, I thought that it was right to draw that to the House’s attention.
- Time
- 17:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Quote
- My Lords, as I understand it, the purpose of the amendment is to introduce an independent commissioner principally to monitor the detention and treatment of terrorist suspects held under Section 41 and also to be present at police interviews, monitor their compliance with relevant safeguards, and interview suspects and so on during the proceedings. I step into this debate somewhat nervously, bearing in mind that we have had a triumvirate, if not a quadrumvirate, of noble and learned Lords, many of whom seem to have been involved in setting up this apparatus for Northern Ireland at some time in the past. I bear in mind that in 1650 on this day HMS “Black Prince” was burned by parliamentarians, and so it is not an auspicious day in that sense. I think that there is already very adequate independent scrutiny of those detained before charge. I should like to run through what is in place because it is important. It is true that the amendment would have significant cost implications and that there would be an increase in bureaucracy. Almost certainly because of jurisdictions, there would be three independent assessors, plus the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, and no doubt they would want some staff. Therefore, I think that there would be some considerable costs. However, these things can be got round and, if it is really important, it can be done. It is worth stating what is already done to look after those who are held in custody awaiting charges on a terrorism offence. It is important to get that into Hansard. As has been said, some of the minorities might feel that they are not looked after well. Section 61 of the Police Reform Act 2002 already provides for independent custody visiting of persons held in police detention, including all detainees held under terrorism provisions. Under the Act every police authority is required to make arrangements for detainees to be visited by persons who are independent of the police and the police authority. The Act formalised independent custody visiting, formally known as lay visiting, which had been established following the Scarman report into the Brixton riots in 1981. Not surprisingly, the independent custody visiting process developed with a clear and strong focus on public confidence. The reason why I make this point is that the key strength of independent custody visiting is the way in which it is founded on the engagement of the local community. Members of the local community are given access to the detainees in their local police station. I wish to strengthen, rather than dilute, that important aspect. As we made clear in the PACE review consultation paper published on 28 August this year, we are looking to strengthen community engagement in custody and are working with the Association of Police Authorities and others to look at how best to raise the status of independent custody visitors and other community members and draw on their knowledge and expertise to inform local and national change. Alongside that, we continue to work closely with the Association of Police Authorities and the Independent Custody Visiting Association in the provision of national guidance, training and support materials for independent custody visitors and police authorities who administer the schemes in their area. Independent custody visitors can visit suspects, and their visits are random, unannounced and normally conducted out of hearing of an escorting officer. A report is completed after each visit and copies are provided to the police, the police authority and the Home Office. Those reports provide a vital source of information on the environmental and welfare conditions in which detainees are held. Although independent custody visitors cannot sit in on interviews with suspects, safeguards are already in place, in addition to the right to legal advice, to ensure that juvenile, mentally vulnerable—
- Time
- 17:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness Falkner of MargravineCrossbench
- Quote
- My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for giving way. Could he share with us the statistics on the number of independent custody visitors who come from the same ethnic minority or religious group as most of those who are detained under these provisions?
- Time
- 17:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord West of SpitheadLabour- Quote
- My Lords, I do not have those statistics with me but shall certainly inform the noble Baroness of them in writing. Taken together with the post of the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation and the other safeguards which I will come on to in a minute, I believe that we already have sufficient safeguards in place to ensure that detainees have appropriate support and that that supports effective community confidence in policing and engages the local community in scrutinising the detention of persons held in police custody. That is an important little strand of our prevention strategy and we must ensure that we reinforce it and make it even stronger. Safeguards on the detention and treatment of terrorist suspects are set out in Schedule 8 to the Terrorism Act 2000. In addition, Code H of the codes of practice issued under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 covers the detention, treatment and questioning by police officers of persons under Section 41 of and Schedule 8 to the Terrorism Act 2000. This makes clear the need to ensure that appropriate and respectful treatment is provided to all detainees. Appropriate action is required to be taken to support the person; to help minimise any additional risk arising from their situation or vulnerability; and to provide appropriate facilities or materials to meet any specific requirements. Detained suspects have the right to legal advice; must be held in cells that are adequately heated, cleaned and ventilated; have the opportunity for exercise; may be visited by friends and family; have access to writing materials; are allowed the opportunity to practise religious observance; and are medically examined daily. As has been said, continued detention is subject to the authorisation of a senior judge at least every seven days. In February 2006 the Home Office and the Association of Chief Police Officers, in conjunction with Centrex, now known as the National Policing Improvement Agency, published Guidance on the Safer Detention and Handling of Persons in Police Custody. The guidance identifies the standards expected in the handling of persons who come into contact with the police. It outlines the framework within which the police and other agencies must operate and sets the strategic mechanisms which should be in place to deliver the required outcomes. It aims to provide the practitioner with practical support, advice and direction in raising the standards of custodial care and enhancing the treatment of persons in custody. Implementation of the guidance in each force area is subject to oversight by the National Policing Improvement Agency, the Association of Chief Police Officers and the Home Office. In January 2008, an accompanying training package for custody officers was published. Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Prisons jointly carry out inspections of police custody. The inspection process aims to provide a regime of planned inspections on the efficiency and effectiveness of police forces and the provision of custody facilities. Up to nine inspections will be carried out during 2008, and thereafter there will be a programme of inspecting custody suites in 10 force areas over the next five years. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, said, suspects held beyond 14 days are generally transferred to prison where they are subject to oversight by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Prisons. The purpose of HMIP is to provide independent scrutiny of the conditions for and treatment of prisoners and other detainees and its role includes unannounced inspections. The noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, in his capacity as the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, also reports annually on the operation of counterterrorism legislation, including pre-charge detention. The amendment proposes that part of such a commissioner’s role would be an entitlement to attend extension hearings to give the judge such assistance as he may require. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, mentioned ex parte hearings. They are not closed hearings and only a very small part is ex parte. They are also extremely rare; I think there have only ever been two such cases. I do not believe the provision is necessary because the suspect is entitled to his own legal representation. I attended one of these events and it was quite a ding-dong battle. The CPS, which is expert in investigatory proceedings, gave the judge all the information that it felt he required about how the investigation was proceeding and why further detention time was necessary. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, spoke about anecdotal evidence concerning a trial where people could have been charged much earlier than after 27 days had elapsed. I think that it is dangerous to use such anecdotal evidence and I do not believe that it is true at all. I have great faith that our police service proceeds as fast as it can to get to a charge. Although I can see that that view is not necessarily held by some noble Lords, my feeling is that the service does try to push forward as quickly as it can. The information provided during extension proceedings through representations and evidence is extensive. The suspect’s lawyer is able to cross-examine the investigating officer to challenge the application vigorously, as happened in the one that I attended. A senior judge oversees the proceedings and ensures that the tests for further detention are satisfied before any extension is granted. That also was done in the one that I attended. I also have faith in our senior judges. Maybe that faith is ill-placed, as a number of people seem to think that that is not sufficient, but I was very impressed by what I saw. I have now listened to a large number of noble and learned and very experienced lawyers speak on this. Although I was originally minded to resist the amendment absolutely, I think that I might now like to take it away. I cannot give a timescale, but there may be merit in going down that route. I have talked with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, about this in the past. He sort of convinced me about 12 months ago, but I sort of became unconvinced again. As I say, however, it is important to put on the record how amazingly well we take care of these people and look after them. I do get fed up with people when they have a go at the police and our judiciary about what they do and how these people are looked after. I find it really quite dreadful, and it comes out again and again. I shall not resist the amendment, but I should like to see how it could be implemented in timescales. There is clearly a feeling that the provision is necessary. The Government want to do their best in looking after people, but also their best in looking after the security and safety of our nation. Sometimes that is an extremely difficult balance. If I may, therefore, I shall move ahead on that basis.
- Time
- 17:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Lloyd of BerwickCrossbench
- Quote
- My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken and who have made many new points. I am particularly grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, for correcting me on the important point that the prosecuting authorities make the application, not the police. However, that does not undermine the main point that the judge still needs more to go on. That is besides all the other points. If the noble Lord is accepting the amendment, subject to further discussion on how it should be framed, of course I will withdraw it. However, I am not clear whether he is accepting the substance of the amendment.
- Time
- 17:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord West of SpitheadLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I would like to accept the substance of the amendment, but I want to look at exactly how we phrase it. I cannot set a timescale and would like to see how it is done. There is also the issue of jurisdictions.
- Time
- 17:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Lloyd of BerwickCrossbench
- Quote
- My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord and beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
- Time
- 17:45
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Geddes)Conservative- Quote
- My Lords, before calling Amendment No. 6, I must advise your Lordships that if it is agreed to, I shall not be able to call Amendments Nos. 9 to 13 inclusive, or Amendment No. 29, due to pre-emption. Clause 23 [Post-charge questioning: England and Wales]:
- Time
- 18:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord West of SpitheadLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 6:
- Time
- 18:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Lloyd of BerwickCrossbench
- Quote
- moved, as an amendment to Amendment No. 6, Amendment No. 7:
- Time
- 18:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness Neville-JonesConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, we welcome the Government’s acceptance that post-charge questioning should be authorised by a judge of the Crown Court or his equivalents in Scotland and Northern Ireland. That move by the Government is very welcome, but we take the view that the concession is too limited. The Government’s amendment allows the judge to, “impose such conditions as appear to be necessary in the interests of justice, which may include conditions as to the place where the questioning is to be carried out”. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, eloquently set out the limitations of that concession. We on these Benches consider that post-charge questioning will be helpful and useful, but we also believe that the process must have integrity. It is difficult to see how judges will be able to exercise proper judicial supervision, which is what we are seeking, if they are not able to have any authority in relation to the scope of the questioning. The concession seems to vitiate the core that one would like to see there. It is a move in a direction that does not go far enough. I want to link this point to the revised draft PACE codes that the Minister sent us on Thursday. We had a look at them; to my surprise, they are much less detailed than the previous versions, which is not what I was expecting. It would be helpful if the Minister could explain why. It is important that the PACE codes list the safeguards that will guide post-charge questioning to prevent it becoming oppressive, but in doing that they need to make a clear statement, as the Act will, that post-charge questioning must not take place near or during the defendant’s trial. That is not there. Can the Minister say that he intends that those safeguards will apply to post-charge questioning as they already apply to pre-charge questioning? I think his answer will be yes, but I would like confirmation of that. More generally, we are not entirely happy with where we now seem to be coming out, because the Government are proposing two things simultaneously: disallowing the judge from determining the scope of police questioning, and curtailing the guidance in the PACE codes about the rules under which the police would conduct such questioning. I have to say that that move is in precisely the wrong direction. I am certain that the aim of this House is not to hamper the police in their duties, but to create public confidence in the way that they carry them out. I therefore support the amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd.
- Time
- 18:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- The Earl of OnslowConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, I am reminded of the biblical quotation, “What the Lord giveth, he taketh away”. I fear that that is what the noble Lord, Lord West, has done. On the Joint Committee on Human Rights, we heard an awful lot about post-charge questioning. We went into it very carefully. It must be obvious that if a judge has to be asked for permission to interrogate, he must be asked for direction about what can be interrogated. The two must be linked. Without that link, the Lord hath taken away, as opposed to the Lord giveth; and I wish that he could go on and giveth because he is by nature a generous and gallant Lord.
- Time
- 18:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord Howarth of NewportLabour- Quote
- My Lords, I am glad that my noble friend tabled Amendment No. 6. It seems to me a worthwhile response, as far as it goes, to the anxieties about the Bill’s provisions on post-charge questioning expressed in Committee, most notably by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, but also by others of us. As the House knows, I support the provision of a contingency power for the Home Secretary within tightly defined conditions to extend pre-charge detention of terrorist suspects. The delicate but always pragmatic balance of liberty and security may properly be recalibrated in circumstances of major terrorist threat. However, if that is done, there is an absolute duty on us to ensure that procedures for questioning people who are detained and trying people who are accused are such as to secure justice. I welcome the safeguards that my noble friend has proposed in response to our debate in Committee to provide for judicial oversight of post-charge questioning; but I also hope that he will reflect carefully on the merits, which seem very great, of the further safeguards proposed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, in his amendments and in his speech.
- Time
- 18:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Baroness Butler-SlossCrossbench- Quote
- My Lords, this worries me. Let us take the scenario where the police wish to continue to question after arrest and charge and go to the judge to say, “We want to do this for this reason. This is the information that we have and we need to ask the defendant these questions”, and the judge says, “Yes”. Under the government amendment, having done that, they are perfectly free to go back to ask any question they choose on any matter about which the judge has not been asked at all. That drives a horse and cart through the whole idea of having protection for a defendant in a post-questioning period. I cannot understand why the Government have left out the other words, which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, has asked to be put back—which the Government themselves put in—unless it is the view of the procurator fiscal, the CPS and the English police that they want a chance to have a second bite at the cherry, although they do not want to be honest about that.
- Time
- 18:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Wallace of TankernessLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- My Lords, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, said, there was a lot of dissatisfaction in Committee about the structure of the Bill at that stage with regard to post-charge questioning. It is necessary to acknowledge the steps that the Government have taken to address those criticisms. Although in the Bill as it stood, in Scotland it would be a sheriff from whom authorisation was sought, there was concern that in England and Northern Ireland it would be lay justices. The fact that they will now be professional justices, judges, is very welcome. There was also concern that, for the initial 24-hour period, questioning could be done at the behest of any senior police officer. There was criticism of that from all sides, and I very much welcome the fact that the Government have thought better of that and that, from the outset, there will be judicial authorisation. The amendments I have tabled in this group are superseded by the comprehensive amendments that the Government have tabled. It is also fair to recognise that one of the amendments that I proposed in Committee was to limit the period for questioning to 72 hours, as opposed to five days. I welcome the fact that the Government have come back to be even more restrictive on the length of questioning. I listened carefully to what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, said about his amendment to the amendment. I have cited before in the context of post-charge questioning the principle of Scots law as enunciated by the then Lord Justice-General Normand in 1938: “When an accused person has been committed, he comes under the protection of the court and it is the court’s duty to see that nothing is done by the police that will prejudice his trial”. That principle is consistent with the amendment moved by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd. I listened carefully to the Minister's answers. Simply to assert that the police, the CPS, the procurator fiscal and the Lord Advocate do not like it is not answer enough. We want to know why they do not like it. The amendment is limited, in that the judiciary is not determining which questions will be asked but rather the scope or subject matter of the questions. That is an important distinction. I therefore want to learn from the Minister why the amendment is being resisted.
- Time
- 18:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord GoldsmithLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, it is a bit of an evening for admissions of parentage. In government, I think that I was the first to press for post-charge questioning, although I confess that that was very largely to meet the argument that there was a need for an extension of the period of detention pre-charge, but it always seemed important that post-charge questioning should be subject to proper safeguards. I, too, welcome the way that my noble friend has produced the amendment. There is much merit in what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, said about the ambit of the questioning, but one aspect of it troubles me, and I want to hear what my noble friend says about it. That is the balance between the need for safeguards and operational requirements. I suspect that it very much depends on how one reads the words, “the matters”. Looking at how the safeguards are drafted, that relates to questioning about the offence itself. The judge must be satisfied under what I think will become subsection (6) that, “further questioning of the person is necessary in the interest of justice”, and, what is more, “that what is authorised will not interfere unduly with the preparation of the person's defence”. So one would anticipate that the prosecutors will have to state why they want to question. That is fine. What would worry me is if the interpretation of the words in the noble and learned Lord’s amendment, “the matters in respect of which the questioning is authorised”, amounted in effect to the drawing-up by the judge of a list of permissible questions. That is not how questioning takes place. I see the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, shake his head. It will be very interesting to know how that is dealt with, but I see circumstances in which, if I were a prosecutor, I would be concerned that the effect of the amendment might be to do just that, to limit how questioning takes place. Therefore, I want to hear what my noble friend says about how the Government view the concerns about the amendment and how they intend to deal with the particular concern which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, has put forward.
- Time
- 18:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord Elystan-MorganCrossbench- Quote
- My Lords, I respectfully suggest that there is not a world of difference between the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord West, and that proposed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick. Both come from the same direction and starting point: that is, the horror with which English law has over the centuries looked on the prospect of a person who, after all, is in the care of the court, after being charged, having further questions put to him. As I understand it, there have always been very narrow exceptions. There are narrow exceptions in Code C to the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, which broadly applies at the moment. They apply where it is necessary to put questions in the hope of minimising or avoiding loss to a person, in the public interest, or where a further statement made by another person has come to light or has been referred to in an interview by another person. Those are the limitations that apply at the moment. There are two avenues in Clause 23. One might be described as the police path of questioning. The other is the judicial path, and it is a great improvement on the part of the Government to want to drop the police path and concentrate on the judicial path. The difference now is whether the judge should sit in essence as an examining magistrate, which would be the probable effect, although not the intention, of the amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, or whether the judge should be at large. I believe that the judge should be trusted. I have served for some 18 years as a circuit judge. Circuit judges very often have to face very difficult choices and can maintain a proper and just balance in such circumstances. The difference might be that, under the amendment proposed by Her Majesty’s Government, this application would be made ex parte but the defendant would not be represented. I am sure that that can be cured either by further amendment or by some administrative decision. On the other hand, there is a danger, which was properly expressed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, that if one begins to spell out exactly what the question should be, one is in very difficult waters. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, has argued that the judges’ rules—of 1904, if I remember rightly; I will be corrected if I am wrong—allowed the judge to oversee the questioning, but only post the event. There was no question of the judge being able to draft the area of questioning. He was obliged to consider whether any information or evidence had been extracted unlawfully and was therefore inadmissible. The oversight was limited to oversight long after the event. I know of no other instance where a judge in our law is entitled beforehand to set out the detailed parameters of the questioning. I appreciate that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, is not saying that; he is saying that we should set out the area of investigation. That is why there is no world of difference between the two amendments. The area of investigation is bound to be affected by the provision in the Government’s amendment, which says that, “further questioning of the person is necessary in the interests of justice”. If you say that questions in that area are necessary but that questions in another area are not, you are drawing a proper boundary between the two. On the other hand, if you say that this is the type of question that can be asked only up to that point but not beyond it, you are making the position of the questioning police officer almost impossible. There can be compromise where the area of questioning can be adequately delineated without over-circumscribing the content of the question.
- Time
- 18:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord Mackay of ClashfernConservative- Quote
- My Lords, the particular paragraph (b) in the Government’s amendment that is the subject of the amendment in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, says: “The judge … may impose such conditions as appear to be necessary in the interests of justice”. That allows the judge, if he wishes, to circumscribe the area of questioning. The only reason for my slight doubt about this interpretation is that apparently the Crown Prosecution Service and the procurator fiscals in Scotland—I think the Lord Advocate was also mentioned—objected to the further provision in the clause. They are not infallible, of course, and what is left may be sufficient for the purpose of securing the basic idea that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, has in mind. It occurs to me that so much in the development of questioning depends on the answers. At the stage at which the judge authorises this questioning, he will not have a very full idea of what the answers may be. I am sure that the noble and learned Lord has, in his long experience, occasionally come across surprising answers, even to questions that he has asked. The scope of the questioning may depend on how the answers develop. This is a developing theme. At the moment, I am prepared to leave this on the basis that the judge may impose conditions that appear to be necessary in the interests of justice on the questioning that he has authorised. If he thinks it necessary to specify the matters on which that questioning should proceed, he could certainly do so.
- Time
- 18:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Thomas of GresfordLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- My Lords, if the Crown prosecutor—I accept the noble Lord’s earlier rebuke—makes an application to the judge for post-charge questioning into a certain area, it is quite simple; the judge permits the application as it is drafted. If further matters arise in the course of the questioning into that area, as applied for, there is nothing to stop the Crown prosecutor going back to the court and seeking to delineate a further area in which he wishes to question the accused person. This will not make a great deal of difference from a practical point of view. I follow the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, when he says that the interests of justice must decisively come first, because if the judge thinks that it is in the interests of justice that questioning should be allowed only in one area and not in another, he can make that order under the clause.
- Time
- 18:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord West of SpitheadLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, that was quite an interesting dialogue. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, had a good run at explaining exactly how we have been involved in detailed consultation, which, as I have said, I like to try to be. I am not sure that it helps to say when certain things were given, certain things were changed and other things were done, because that is part of life when one is consulting. It may lead one not to consult, which would be a bit unfortunate because consultation is clearly very important. Phrases such as “caved in” are not very helpful, either. I should like to think that I listen to debates in this Chamber and then consult people. A number of noble Lords have asked why the Crown Prosecution Service, the police and the Crown prosecutor said all these things. I have not only asked them but have taken other advice. I have talked to a number of other senior judges about this, and it is by no means clear cut. Indeed, a number of them, rather like the Crown Prosecution Service, are nervous about the direction in which we are going. They feel that we should not move towards a judge having a role in placing and directing questions in what should be the investigation stage of post-charge questioning. They genuinely feel that there is a real risk that this might lead us to go down the route of having examining magistrates, as France has. This is finely balanced, as a number of noble Lords have mentioned. Setting out the area of investigation, as the amendment does, allows the judge to take the right decisions and set broad parameters. We all know that people say amazing things sometimes when they are questioned. So, as the questioning goes ahead, to have to stop to ask for more permission and to open up all the potential in the case for this to be challenged by the defence later is very risky. Lots of safeguards are in place. The suspect has a right to legal representation throughout post-charge questioning. His man will be there. The solicitor will be present. He will stop abuse and will protect the interests of the defendant. The trial judge can refuse to admit any evidence that was obtained inappropriately. I do not believe that the police have any incentive to abuse their power, but in terms of the investigation and of protecting us, they have the opportunity to move quickly down a route when things come out suddenly during the questioning. It makes absolute sense to do that. On the PACE code issue raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones, it is less detailed. With post-charge questioning now authorised by a judge, we do not need the parts of the code about police authorisation. The judge must consider the proximity of questioning to the trial, which he will do. Therefore, it will not impinge on the trial and will not move in that direction. I have touched on the practical problems that this amendment would raise and on the danger that the judge would become an examining magistrate, which I do not think will help. I believe that within the amendments there are protections to look after the person who is being questioned, but there are not the risks of these other things, which will not help justice. Certainly, we look after the individual and make sure that he is protected by having a solicitor and by the fact that the evidence could be inadmissible at the trial. Therefore, I should like my amendment to stand.
- Time
- 18:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Lloyd of BerwickCrossbench
- Quote
- My Lords, I am not suggesting—I am sure that no one really imagines that I am—that the judge in these circumstances should sit as an examining magistrate. Nor do I suggest, and nor would the effect of this amendment be, that the judge could spell out what the questions should be. When my noble friend Lord Elystan-Morgan says that there is perhaps not a great deal of difference between what I am contending and what the noble Lord is accepting, I venture to disagree. There is a great deal of difference. It seems to me still to be essentially important that the judge should indicate the areas—I am perfectly happy with that word—in which the further questioning should take place. I thought that the word “matters”, the original word and clearly intended to cover areas proposed by the Government, was a sensible word. I still think that “matters” is a sufficiently sensible word, but it means areas rather than individual questions. On that basis, I should like to test the opinion of the House.
- Time
- 18:30
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- The Deputy Speaker (Lord Geddes)Conservative
- Quote
- My Lords, I should remind the House that if Amendment No. 15 is agreed to, I will not be able to call Amendments Nos. 18 to 20 inclusive due to pre-emption.
- Time
- 18:56
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord West of SpitheadLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 15:
- Time
- 18:56
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord West of SpitheadLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendments Nos. 21 and 22:
- Time
- 18:56
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Wallace of TankernessLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 23:
- Time
- 19:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord West of SpitheadLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, has said, and as I made clear in Committee, the Lord Advocate has confirmed that she intends to issue guidelines on post-charge questioning and that they will be similar to those that the Lord Advocate issued on detention, treatment and questioning of persons arrested under Section 41 of the Terrorism Act 2000. These were issued despite there being no statutory requirement to do so. We have made a legislative requirement that codes of practice must make provision regarding post-charge questioning in England and Wales and Northern Ireland because in these jurisdictions codes of practice are a statutory requirement—for example, in England and Wales, under Section 66 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. As for why that should not be the case in Scotland, the answer is that Scotland is different. It is not the case in Scotland, and it is a matter for the Lord Advocate to determine whether it is appropriate or necessary to issue guidelines. We therefore do not believe that a statutory requirement would be helpful or appropriate, and the Lord Advocate supports us in this view.
- Time
- 19:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Wallace of TankernessLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- My Lords, I hear the argument that Scotland is different, and it can be a compelling argument. Will the Minister undertake to ensure that when the Lord Advocate issues these guidelines, a copy will be placed in the Library of the House?
- Time
- 19:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord West of SpitheadLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I would be happy to do that. I shall have to check with the Lord Advocate, but I cannot see any difficulty whatever in doing so. Assuming that she has no issue with that, and I cannot see that she would, I will certainly agree to do it. On the basis of there being a difference, as we know there is, and that she will be issuing guidelines, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.
- Time
- 19:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Wallace of TankernessLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- My Lords, it is always worthwhile to challenge and test these matters. When legislation is making provision for all parts of the United Kingdom, we should ensure that at least some equivalence of protection is given to those affected by it. I hear and accept what the Minister has said. Given his willingness in principle, subject to consultation with the Lord Advocate, to place the guidelines in the Library of the House, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 25 [Post-charge questioning: Northern Ireland]:
- Time
- 19:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord West of SpitheadLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 24:
- Time
- 19:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord West of SpitheadLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 27:
- Time
- 19:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness Neville-JonesConservative
- Quote
- My Lords, I welcome what the Minister has just said. Is there a programme to equip the police stations where the facilities are not available? It would be a good idea to avoid having to shift people around because the necessary facilities are not on the spot.
- Time
- 19:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord West of SpitheadLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I do not know the exact answer. Perhaps I may get back to the noble Baroness in writing on the issue. On Question, amendment agreed to. [Amendments Nos. 28 and 29 not moved.]
- Time
- 19:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord West of SpitheadLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendments Nos. 30 and 31:
- Time
- 19:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Wallace of TankernessLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 33:
- Time
- 19:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord West of SpitheadLabour
- Quote
- My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, for his amendment because it is important that we give this matter some exposure. I hope that my explanation will cover the points he has raised. Clause 29 gives UK-wide jurisdiction for specific terrorism offences, irrespective of which jurisdiction they were committed in. The amendments seek to alter the provisions in two ways. Amendments Nos. 33 and 35 would make it a legal requirement for the law officer of the jurisdiction in which the offence was committed to give written consent to the transfer of cases from that part of the UK to another part of the UK for prosecution under the jurisdiction provided by the clause. Amendment No. 34 would require the Attorney-General, the Lord Advocate and the Director of Public Prosecutions for Northern Ireland to jointly issue, and from time to time revise, a code of practice regarding the operation of Clause 29. That code of practice would first have to be issued in draft, consulted on and laid before Parliament under the affirmative resolution procedure. Once final, it would be binding on anyone exercising an investigative or prosecutorial function in relation to the clause. Noble Lords will recall that the Lord Advocate, Elish Angiolini, gave evidence to the Commons Public Bill Committee, saying that she did not think an express provision of consent would be helpful. We agree that the addition of a requirement for written consent would be unhelpful. Dominic Grieve spoke about this very issue at the previous Report stage of the Bill, saying: “Given what the Lord Advocate has said so emphatically, I would be loth to interfere. I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s anxiety, and perhaps I can reassure him by saying that if there were to be a serious difference of view on an issue of the kind we are discussing”— that is, which jurisdiction a prosecution should take place in— “it would create a mini constitutional crisis and the House would have to return to the issue. The smooth running of constitutions depends on more than our getting a series of rules right. If an established relationship is so clear and self-confident—at both ends—that no one has ever seen a problem on which there has not been a meeting of minds, I would be loth to interfere with it”. He also discussed the disadvantages of including a requirement: “The disadvantage would be that where a relationship works well without such a requirement—and is therefore seen perhaps as a pillar of the good working of our Union, which I support—I would not wish to see its having to be qualified with even the suggestion that it would require some statutory clarification in certain circumstances”.—[Official Report, Commons, 10/6/08; col. 228.]
- Time
- 19:00
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Wallace of TankernessLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that response. I still have some concern that a lot of this is being to left, “It’ll be all right on the night”, but I take the point that it is about the relationship between the offices of the law officers as well as any personal relationship—although it is worth pointing out that until May 1999 the two officers were actually members of the same Administration. It is only recently that they have been members of different Administrations. One hopes that this will stand the test of time, not least for the sake of the Union to which Dominic Grieve referred. Most important in the Minister’s reply was that there will be a number of issues that the Lord Advocate and the Attorney-General will be prepared to address and that that will be made publicly available prior to these provisions coming into force. That is a very welcome response, and on that basis I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendments Nos. 34 and 35 not moved.]
- Time
- 19:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord West of SpitheadLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 36:
- Time
- 19:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Baroness Falkner of MargravineCrossbench
- Quote
- My Lords, I wholeheartedly thank the Minister for taking the time to meet us à propos the amendments. We said then that we welcomed the change of position. I would never apply laddish terminology such as “cave-in” to any morsels that the Minister might throw in my direction. Such an expression does not figure in my lexicon. I consider the Minister’s rethinking of his position an extremely gracious act. However, while not wishing to be at all churlish, I take this opportunity to remind him of my now recalibrated concerns in one or two small areas, one of which is the treatment of 16 and 17 year-olds. Current arrangements for young people regarded as representing a risk to others are already stringent, and there seems to be no evidence that they are ineffective. In the following points, I refer to an extensive briefing that I have received from the Standing Committee on Youth Justice. Youth offending teams are required to conduct an assessment of risk of serious harm in all cases where there is any suggestion that a young person might pose a risk to others. They are obliged to develop a risk management plan. Where levels of risk are at their highest, young people are subject to multi-agency public protection arrangements. Such arrangements provide a much higher level of supervision and oversight than would be afforded by the young person notifying his or her details to the police annually. For these very reasons, the Government were persuaded that violent offender orders, included in the Criminal Justice Bill not so very long ago, should not be introduced for those below the age of 18. I know that the Minister is sympathetic to the argument that adolescence is a time of transition and identity formulation. During the minimum proposed period for notification, each young person will have changed beyond all recognition, and the risk that they may have posed 10 years previously may no longer be relevant. A further concern is that terrorism-related activity differs from other forms of offending in a number of respects. Where young people are involved, it will in nearly every case be encouraged by, or undertaken under the influence or at the instigation of, older individuals—we have talked about the grooming that takes place—who may deliberately target children. In such cases, it is important that responses to terrorist offending should aim to foster social inclusion through a process of education and rehabilitation. The notification requirements are likely to be unhelpful in this regard. I draw noble Lords’ attention to the Prime Minister’s visit to Saudi Arabia earlier this week, where he met some alleged suspects—I have to say “alleged”, because Saudi Arabia has not taken any terrorist suspects to trial as yet. They had been the subject of rehabilitation and seemed to have seen that they were under the influence of a pervasive ideology and to have recanted. While not suggesting for a second that we employ those tactics, we would hope that we could look forward to their education and rehabilitation, particularly with regard to this young group, rather than stigmatisation through notification requirements ad infinitum. Will the Minister, who I know is mindful of these points, accept that we might wish to keep an eye on this area, and, as we go forward and see how it beds down, perhaps in some forthcoming legislation revisit these concerns?
- Time
- 19:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord Thomas of GresfordLiberal Democrat
- Quote
- My Lords, I owe the Minister an apology for the use of a shorthand expression, when passing the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, in the Corridor, that I normally use only about his Government. In fact, I think that I referred to his Government and not to the noble Lord himself, because we all know that he has never caved in personally or in his career throughout his life. We welcome from these Benches the straightforward way in which he deals with and listens to us. I should have said that the noble Lord, having given careful consideration to our points, has come to a sensible conclusion. On Question, amendment agreed to. Clause 45 [Sentences or orders triggering notification requirements]:
- Time
- 19:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord West of SpitheadLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendments Nos. 37 to 45:
- Time
- 19:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord West of SpitheadLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 46:
- Time
- 19:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
- Lord West of SpitheadLabour
- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 47:
- Time
- 19:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗
- Speaker
Lord BrettLabour- Quote
- My Lords, I beg to move that further consideration on Report be now adjourned. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
- Time
- 19:15
- Source
- View in Hansard ↗