3rd reading in the Lords
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- My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen and His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales to acquaint the House that they, having been informed of the purport of the Planning Bill, have consented to place their Prerogative and Interest, so far as they are affected by the Bill, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill. Before we move on to the Third Reading of the Planning Bill, it may be helpful for me to say a few words about Third Reading amendments in line with the guidance recommended by the Procedure Committee and agreed by the House. The Public Bill Office has advised the usual channels that two amendments on the Marshalled List for Third Reading today fall outside the guidance given in the Companion and set out by the Procedure Committee. These are Amendments Nos. 1 and 28 in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Reay, and the noble Earl, Lord Caithness. On the basis of the Public Bill Office’s advice, the usual channels have agreed to recommend to the House that neither amendment should be moved. As ever, ultimately, this is a matter for the House as a whole to decide. Bill read a third time. Clause 10 [Sustainable development]: [Amendment No. 1 not moved.] Clause 12 [Pre-commencement statements of policy, consultation etc.]:
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Andrews)Labour- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 2:
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- Baroness AndrewsLabour
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- moved Amendments Nos. 3 to 6:
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The Duke of MontroseConservative- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 7:
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Lord Boyd of DuncansbyCrossbench- Quote
- My Lords, I declare my interest and refer in particular to the fact that I am a solicitor in private practice advising on planning issues. I am also a member of the Commission on Scottish Devolution. The noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, has moved an interesting amendment in relation to cross-border railways. He is right to say that the responsibility for cross-border railways lies with the United Kingdom Government but I believe that the consenting process would be a matter for the Scottish Parliament. The noble Duke may be interested to know that the commission has received submissions in relation to nuclear power, which is a reserved matter but where the consenting and planning process would be a matter for Scottish Ministers. The commission is considering these representations. If the noble Duke wishes to make representations to the commission in relation to cross-border railways, we will be pleased to look at them.
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- My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Duke for moving the amendment, which gives us a further opportunity to explore the issue of cross-border rail infrastructure. We need to make a distinction between two separate issues here. The first is the issue of services. As my noble and learned friend has just said, where those services are cross-border, my department through the franchising arrangement takes the lead role. The issue at stake in the Planning Bill is not services but infrastructure. The Infrastructure Planning Commission will not have vires in respect of the Scottish part of rail infrastructure proposals which cross the border. That does not mean, however, that the United Kingdom Parliament could not play a role in consenting to such schemes. It would be open to the promoters to seek authorisation by means of a private or possibly hybrid Bill presented to the Westminster Parliament, which would be likely to require a Sewel motion. In seeking consent for such a rail infrastructure scheme across the border, that would be one of two possible ways forward. The other would be for the IPC to consider the English part and for Scottish Ministers to consider the Scottish part. Discussion on which of those options would be best would take place at the appropriate time, taking full account of the circumstances of the case. I am certainly not closing the door to the possibility of the United Kingdom Parliament deciding the planning issues relating to those infrastructure projects, but that would be by means of a private or hybrid Bill, requiring a Sewel motion; it would not be done through the IPC which, under the Bill, would not have powers in respect of the rail infrastructure required for cross-border projects. The issue of services is distinctly different. It relates to the contracting process with train operating companies for services which, as the noble Duke said, run from Glasgow, Edinburgh and other Scottish cities to south of the border.
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- The Duke of MontroseConservative
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- My Lords, I am interested to hear the response of the Minister, but I am still puzzled. One knows perfectly well that planning is a devolved matter and, as I understand it, would require consideration of specific areas, items, routes or anything else within Scotland. Is it the Minister’s contention that national infrastructure is not a reserved matter and that, therefore, it is a proper matter for the Scottish Administration to consider? If so, does that relate only to national infrastructure as regards Scotland? The clauses at the beginning of the Bill apply to Scotland, so I would have thought that the Scots should be able to consider cross-border railways.
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Lord AdonisLabour- Quote
- My Lords, it is our contention that the Scottish dimension of any rail infrastructure projects that cross the border are subject to the devolution settlement and, therefore, should either be decided by Scottish Ministers or, as I said, be subject to a private or hybrid Bill procedure, which, in turn, would require a Sewel motion.
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- The Duke of MontroseConservative
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- My Lords, I find it difficult to plough my way through all this, but in the mean time I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 60 [Local impact reports]:
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Baroness HamweeLiberal Democrat- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 8:
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The Earl of CaithnessConservative- Quote
- My Lords, before the Minister moves her amendment, will she advise on how the Government will help local authorities with the preparation of this report? Will there be guidelines so that the reports will be consistent? What steps will be taken to ensure that all major items are included throughout the country on an equal basis, in particular agriculture?
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- Baroness AndrewsLabour
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- My Lords, I am glad that the noble Baroness welcomes the amendment. I will put on record some of the reasoning behind it and then address the amendment itself. I hope that I can reassure her. It may be useful if I set out why the Bill provides for the commission to invite the relevant local authority, or authorities, to produce a local impact report. We are absolutely clear that local authorities, as the democratically elected representatives of the local community, have a vital role to play in the consent regime for major infrastructure, particularly in ensuring that national decision-makers, including the proposed IPC, take proper account of relevant local factors and considerations. Therefore, the Bill provides local authorities with a vital role in representing their communities in the new process and in ensuring that their local communities are adequately consulted. I say to the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, that we will certainly put out guidance and take early action with local authorities to ensure that they understand the process. This is an important question, because so much will rest on their understanding of what this offers their planning procedures. Relevant local authorities will be consulted by the promoter of a project before they submit an application under the provisions of Part 5 of the Bill. The IPC must have regard to any report on the adequacy of the promoter’s consultation received from a local authority when deciding whether to accept an application. Relevant local authorities will be interested parties to the examination of an application. In addition, Clause 60 requires the IPC, on accepting an application for development consent, to invite the relevant local authority, or authorities, to produce a report on the likely impact on their area of the proposed development being applied for. Clause 104 then requires the commission to have regard to the local impact report when making its decision. Clause 105 requires the Secretary of State to do the same in a case in which she decides, for example, to exercise her power of intervention. This all adds up to the local impact reports being central to the IPC decision. As such, we have sought to give local authorities the longest time to prepare the reports, which will, I envisage, be quite detailed documents. They will reflect the impact of a development on the local development plans; they will reflect what the community feels and thinks. However, the importance that the new process gives to local impact reports needs to be balanced against the need to ensure that the applicant and other interested parties are also given a reasonable opportunity to comment on the report to the IPC. We are looking for a balance of fairness and access. On Report, the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, raised the concern that the Bill does not appear to provide for a local authority’s local impact report to be seen and commented on by the applicant and any other interested party before the end of the examination of the application by the IPC. My noble friend’s concerns arose from the provision in Clause 60(6), which provides that the deadline for submission of the local impact report is the same as the deadline for the completion of the examination of the application by the IPC. My noble friend made a compelling case and I gave an assurance that I would consider this further ahead of Third Reading, which I have done. I accept that provisions in Clause 60(6) may inadvertently suggest that the applicant and other interested parties might not have an opportunity to comment on a local impact report. This was not our intention. Our Amendment No. 9 therefore removes subsection (6) of Clause 60 so that instead it will be for the commission to specify in each case the date by which the local impact report must be received. That will be subject to procedural rules made by the Lord Chancellor under Clause 97, which we expect will clarify that the deadline must give sufficient time for the parties to comment on the local impact report. What we have are rules that will strike the right balance between giving local authorities the longest time possible to complete these detailed and important reports and ensuring that the applicant and interested parties are given a reasonable opportunity to see and comment on the report to the IPC before the completion of the examination of the application. I commend the amendment to the House. Amendment No. 8, which was tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, would provide that the deadline in Clause 60 should allow reasonable time for the preparation of the local impact report. That is not necessary in the light of what I have said. I set out in some detail that it would be for the commission to specify in each case the date by which the local impact report must be received. That will be subject to procedural rules made by the Lord Chancellor under Clause 97, which, as I said, we expect will clarify that the deadline must give sufficient time for the parties to comment on the local impact report. The noble Baroness asked me for reassurance that local authorities will also get reasonable time to comment and complete the local impact reports. I am happy to give her that reassurance because, above all, we will make sure that the procedural rules make it clear that the IPC should give local authorities the longest time possible to complete these reports and ensure that the applicant and the interested parties can see and comment on the report to the IPC. That will be achieved by procedural rules, which is the best way, because it allows for discussion. I hope that the noble Baroness will be satisfied with that.
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- Baroness HamweeLiberal Democrat
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- My Lords, I asked for an impossible assurance. I do not know that any Minister could give an assurance that people will behave like civilised adults on every occasion. Experience suggests that that ideal is not always achieved. However, I am reassured by what she said, which put the importance of the local impact report well to the fore. What has been arrived at with that assurance and with reference to procedural rules gives the right balance and I am happy to beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
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- Baroness AndrewsLabour
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- moved Amendment No. 9:
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- Baroness AndrewsLabour
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- moved Amendment No. 10:
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- Baroness HamweeLiberal Democrat
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- My Lords, I welcome the Government’s amendments. Throughout the passage of this Bill, the Minister has devoted time and a considerable degree of care to listening to noble Lords and responding to their concerns wherever possible. As ever, the wording which the Government have produced is considerably better than mine and I thank the Minister for the two amendments. In introducing them, she said quite rightly that there have been occasions when the term “site” has been used. In fact the Bill deals only with “locations”. We have all been guilty of referring to “sites”. There was even an occasion at the last stage when the Minister talked about “potentially suitable sites”. I am glad that that has been corrected and we have slightly broadened the issue. Amendment No. 12 reflected my concern that the Secretary of State should be in the same position as the commission in cases where the Secretary of State takes a decision on matters to which he or she must have regard. I appreciate that it will be rare for there to be a national policy statement in place when there is a Secretary-of-State decision, but it is possible and the Bill allows for that. The Government’s drafting clearly includes confirmation—and I use that word rather loosely—of the status of the NPS vis-à-vis other considerations. Having had it explained to me that it is in a different part of Clause 104 from those to which the panel and council must have regard, and that those parts of Clause 104 are not repeated in Clause 105, I can see that my concern is misplaced; that concern being that a court looking at the two clauses might say that Parliament had a different view as to how Clause 105 would operate and national policy statements would have a different status in that clause. Third Readings are useful occasions. I can see now that that should not apply. I am grateful for the time of the House and for the opportunity to explain my concern, as well as to thank the Minister and make sure that it is understood how the two clauses operate.
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Lord Howarth of NewportLabour- Quote
- My Lords, for reasons that the whole House understands and accepts, the noble Lord, Lord Reay, chose not to move his Amendment No. 1 about respecting high quality landscape. Is the Minister willing to elaborate a little on what she considers the clause as amended to mean for the duties of the panel and council and the Secretary of State as they arrive at their decisions in relation to respect for the landscape? I am happy to see my noble friend Lord Hunt in his place and most grateful to him for his willingness to meet the noble Lord, Lord Reay, and me and for the letter that he has written to us. He said on Report that national policy statements will take account of all relevant government policy, including PPS7, and I appreciate that PPS7 confirms that great weight should be given to the designations of national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty in planning policies and development control decisions. Can the Minister confirm that PPS7 will be among matters prescribed in subsection (2)(c) of Clause 104 or other matters which the panel and the council may consider important or relevant, as in subsection (2)(d)? The major development test set out in paragraph 22 of PPS7 says that major developments should not take place in national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty except in exceptional circumstances. Will my noble friend tell us a little more about how strong that protection is, and how strong the protection in PPS22 and its companion guide is? Some of us fear that it will be argued, for example, that the need to provide more renewable energy in coming years constitutes an exceptional circumstance, and that adverse effects on the quality of the landscape will be considered to be outweighed by other environmental, social and economic benefits, thus justifying the festooning of our most beautiful and treasured landscapes with wind-power apparatus. Can my noble friend reassure us to any extent on that point, and can she assure us that the forthcoming national policy statement on renewable energy will robustly protect important landscapes? I appreciate that local authorities are instructed in PPS7 to take account of landscape quality in preparing local development documents, and that local authorities will be statutory consultees where national policy statements are location-specific, as well as for pre-application and examination processes in the development consent regime, and that they will have the opportunity to provide local impact reports to the IPC. Clause 104 refers to all this. My noble friend said in the debate on a previous amendment that local impact statements will be key. Clause 104(4) applies, “if the Panel or Council is satisfied that deciding the application in accordance with any relevant national policy statement would lead to the United Kingdom being in breach of any of its international obligations”. Will my noble friend tell us whether the Government will regard the European Landscape Convention as being among those international obligations, and will she confirm that PPS1 reflects that convention and will be interpreted in that sense? Will she also confirm that the Government will pay very careful heed to the advice of Natural England, as a statutory consultee for all national policy statements? Such reassurances would be helpful, but they would remain somewhat flimsy. So, finally, I ask my noble friend for two specific assurances. Will she assure the House—in terms that can be noted by the courts, which will interpret this law in due course—that, as an important environmental consideration, the conservation of the landscape falls within the scope of the Secretary of State’s duty to contribute to sustainable development in Clause 10? When, before designating a national policy statement, Ministers carry out an appraisal of its impact on sustainability, will they assess and take account of its impact on the landscape? The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, gave the noble Lord, Lord Reay, and me such assurances in his letter, but it would be hugely helpful if my noble friend could place those assurances on the record in Hansard.
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- Baroness AndrewsLabour
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- My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, for interpreting and speaking to my amendment, which I shall say nothing more about. I will answer quite a lot of the questions asked by my noble friend Lord Howarth by referring to the letter which my noble friend Lord Hunt of Kings Heath sent to the noble Lord, Lord Reay, but I will have to write him about others because they were even more detailed than some of the answers that he received. I will do my best not to weary the House by referring to the letter, which answers most of these questions. National parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty have the highest status of protection for their landscape and scenic beauty, and great weight indeed should be given to them in planning policies and development control decisions. Of most relevance to this in the context of the Bill is the major development test. This is set out in paragraph 22 of PPS7, which says: “Major developments should not take place in these designated areas, except in exceptional circumstances”. As my noble friend Lord Hunt said on Report, national policy statements will take account of all relevant government policy, which will include PPS7 where it is relevant to that NPS. PPS7 recognises non-designated areas of landscape outside nationally designated areas that are particularly highly valued locally. It sets out that local authorities should draft criteria-based policies in local development documents, utilising tools such as landscape character assessment. The noble Lord asked how strong those planning provisions are: they are very strong indeed. Specific policies on planning for renewable energy, including on landscape protection, are set out in PPS22, which is supported by a companion guide to provide practice guidance on assessing the visual and landscape effects of planning applications for wind turbines. PPS22 recognises that the landscape and visual effects of particular renewable energy developments will vary on a case-by-case basis according to the type of development, its location and the landscape setting of the proposed development. PPS22 advises that in sites with nationally recognised designations, such as sites of special scientific interest, national parks and AONBs, planning permission for renewable energy projects should be granted only where it can be demonstrated that the objectives of designation of the area will not be compromised by the development and any significant adverse effects on the qualities for which the area has been designated are clearly outweighed by the environmental, social and economic benefits. Small-scale developments should be permitted within these areas provided that there is no significant environmental detriment to the area concerned. We intend that there will be an NPS for renewable energy, which will be drawn up and consulted on in due course. The noble Lord asked me about the European Landscape Convention, which has been mentioned several times during the passage of this Bill. As my noble friend said on Report, the Government believe that the UK is already fulfilling the requirements of the convention; therefore, it does not have any immediate implications for the planning system in England. National planning policies, including PPS1: Delivering Sustainable Development, recognise the need to provide appropriate protection and enhancement of rural and urban landscapes in England, in line with the principal aims of the convention. The noble Lord mentioned Natural England. Defra has asked Natural England to take the lead on the implementation of the ELC in England, working closely with English Heritage and others. I should like to underline that Natural England will be a statutory consultee for all NPSs and will be able to raise those issues that it feels are appropriate, including any arising from the ELC. The Bill also requires that, before designating a national policy statement, Ministers must carry out an appraisal of their sustainability. That will assess the impact of the NPS on the landscape and other environmental issues, and ensure that they are taken into account. As with Clause 10, it will capture not just environmental but also economic and social impacts, which will ensure that we understand the impact of NPSs holistically as we seek to deliver our sustainable development objectives. The Government agree that high quality landscape is important and should be protected. They have put policies in place to that effect, and NPSs will take account of all relevant government policy. Local authorities will be able to report to the IPC on the impact of specific proposals. The noble Lord asked about regulations under Clause 104(2)(c) in relation to PPS7. I will write to him on that, but I can tell him that a number of provisions on protecting landscape will be incorporated into NPSs. With that reply and with the promise of reading Hansard tomorrow and picking up on any detailed questions that I did not address, I hope that the noble Lord will be content.
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Lord ChorleyCrossbench- Quote
- My Lords, before the noble Baroness sits down, is she aware that what she has just said is enormously important to a whole range of organisations covering different aspects of landscape protection? Many people out there in the countryside will be very grateful. On Question, amendment agreed to.
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- moved Amendment No. 11:
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- Baroness AndrewsLabour
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- moved Amendment No. 13:
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Lord GreavesLiberal Democrat- Quote
- My Lords, I thank the Minister for the amendments. She said that she hopes that I will be reassured by them. I am far more than reassured. I first raised this issue in Committee and moved amendments on Report in the hope that a satisfactory compromise could be reached. I have to say that a satisfactory compromise has not been reached because as far as I can see, the amendments now being proposed by the Minister do everything I had hoped and intended my amendments to do. It is a very good show and I thank the Minister for listening, for understanding the issue and for responding to it. If the Minister enjoys agreeing with me, I enjoy it far more when she brings forward amendments that do exactly what I have been asking for. On Question, amendment agreed to.
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- moved Amendment No. 14:
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Baroness WhitakerLabour- Quote
- My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on this amendment. I thank her for the exemplary way in which she has kept the House informed of developments in the Bill, and for her kind words. My noble friend Lord Howarth of Newport said on Report that she could take her place in history and that she could open the way to a new and better era of architecture and design in Britain. The amendment completes a legal framework that will enable our talented architects and designers to give of their best for ordinary affordable social housing as well as for big infrastructure projects. We shall have a better society because of it if we make sure that all concerned take full advantage of the new duty to achieve sustainability by good design. The first crucial step would be taken by these amendments, and I applaud my noble friend’s achievement in getting them through.
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Lord TylerLiberal Democrat- Quote
- My Lords, I add a word of congratulation to the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, and the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, on how they have pursued this. Of course, our main congratulations go to the Minister. I hope that I will not be thought to be a little niggardly in saying that, in contrast to the response on the issue of the commons law last week, when the Minister was very positive and said that she would look at it quickly and come back with proposals, as indeed she has—I and commons campaigners in other parts of the country respect and are delighted by that—she was a bit negative on this issue last week. Looking at Hansard, I thought that, on Report, she was uncharacteristically truculent on design, even suggesting that it was quite impossible to put something in the Bill because there was no time to consult. I pay tribute to the Minister for the speed with which she and her team in the department have managed to come up with something in the Bill that meets many of our concerns. As a relative newcomer to your Lordships’ House—I have been here only three and half years; until you have been here 33 years you are not regarded as a native—I have seen how the Minister and her team have responded with meticulous efficiency to issues in the House, and by correspondence with many of us involved in the passage of the Bill. That is in sharp contrast to my experience on the Front Bench in the other place over 14 years, when Ministers did not think it necessary to explain and persuade. That is to the credit of this House, and to the Minister and her team. The elegant U-turn that the Minister has undertaken over the past few days is to her personal credit and that of her team in the department. The result is a great step forward. I say to her and to other Members of your Lordships’ House who have made this such an important part of our discussions on planning that it is a pity that we did not have this requirement clearly in previous legislation—notably the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004, to which it has now been added. It is a great step forward, and I am sure that it will be recognised as such outwith this House.
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- Lord Howarth of NewportLabour
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- My Lords, my noble friend has indeed allowed the hand of history to touch her shoulder. When it was suggested on Report last week that that might be so, she blushed modestly and demurred. Since then, however, she has embraced her historical destiny to become the reformer responsible for the institution of legal requirements that will raise standards of design across the entire planning system, and in regeneration and building. The new clause and this legislation will be timely. The Government are extremely anxious to accelerate construction activity, and housebuilding in particular, for good reason. We understand that there are 1.7 million households on the waiting list for social housing. It is widely agreed that a stimulus is needed for the economy under the present conditions. However, there is a danger that, in our haste to accelerate construction, quality is sacrificed. We must not repeat the disastrous mistakes that were made decade after decade in the second half of the 20th century. With a great deal of public sector activism and expenditure, and a depressed private sector and—I hope not, but perhaps—a depressed social housing sector operating in circumstances of great difficulty, there is a danger that we will revert to the policy of creating estates, with all that word’s bad connotations, instead of continuing to create integrated communities. That is an aspect of design. There is a continuum between economic policy, social policy, planning policy, functionality, sustainability, building regulations, green spaces, design and aesthetics. All are interdependent. My noble friend has been right to reject the view that it would have been inappropriate to state the requirement for design alongside the requirement for sustainable development in this legislation. Good planning, plus good design, plus good building tend to make for good communities.
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Lord Dixon-SmithConservative- Quote
- My Lords, I always enjoy listening to the noble Lord but I remind him that this is Third Reading.
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- Lord Howarth of NewportLabour
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- My Lords, of all the noble Lords who might upbraid me I am perhaps happiest being upbraided by the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith. I will simply confine myself to noting that we have an anomalous situation in which conservation area advisory committees were set up in statute but are not statutory consultees. That is a wasted opportunity. We should better use these advisory bodies, design review and other advisory bodies of this kind. However, this amendment to the town and country planning regime, together with the amendments which my noble friend previously brought forward, strengthens our drive for good design and strengthens the duty to have regard to design on the HCA and in the development consent regime. I am deeply grateful to my noble friend and I ask her whether she will now turn her creative mind to how this new and good law can be made to work well.
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- Baroness HamweeLiberal Democrat
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- My Lords, I hope that the noble Baroness will forgive me if I do not spend time focusing on her place in history because I could not do so better than the noble Lord has done. Instead, I wish to make one observation about the proposed new clause, which we support. It is important to recognise that the sustainable development duty is not diluted but that good design is a mechanism for achieving sustainable development. I would hate it to be thought—I do not believe that any noble Lords think this—that somehow we have created a new hierarchy within sustainable development. I do not read that as being inherent in the new clause. We support the notion of sustainable development but not that of spreading it more thinly or changing it. On Question, amendment agreed to. Clause 208 [Liability: interpretation of key terms]:
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- Lord Dixon-SmithConservative
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- moved Amendment No. 15:
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- The Earl of CaithnessConservative
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- My Lords, this is the only amendment on CIL, and I support my noble friend in what he said. It gives me the only opportunity to ask the Minister a couple of questions about CIL. I am certainly not happy with the way that the Bill is at the moment, or with the way CIL is. We have no regulations, which we were promised in another place, we have no information on which we would have been able to discuss the matter and at each stage there have been a substantial number of government amendments. This is an ill-conceived policy. The Minister said on Report that CIL is very much a general charge. If a local authority is looking at funding infrastructure, it has to work out what percentage can come from other areas and what percentage can come from CIL. Given what the Minister said on Report, how is she going to prevent a local authority transferring CIL into other pockets of money? If a local authority is looking at CIL as a general charge rather than as a specific charge for a development, it will be wide open for it to transfer CIL money into other areas of the local authority. Can she explain how that will be prevented and how local authorities will stop that? I have one other question. As the Government have refused to remove the Planning-gain Supplement (Preparations) Act from the statute book, confidence in the Government among the construction community and surveyors is at rock bottom. They do not trust the Government on this. If the Government spend any money under the PGS Act, can the noble Baroness give a categoric assurance that a Minister will make a Statement in both Houses that money is going to be so spent? There is great fear, despite what she said on Report, that her department sees CIL as a short-term measure and really it wants to go back to the planning gain supplement. Will the noble Baroness confirm that a Statement will be made in both Houses before any money is spent?
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Lord Woolmer of LeedsLabour- Quote
- My Lords, I declare an interest as a partner in a business that works in the development area. The noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, raises a reasonable point. It would be helpful if the Minister could remind the House where in the impact assessment documents there is an estimate of the amount to be raised from CIL in the first five years and whether that takes account of the inevitable effect that it will replace Section 106 money. In almost all cases, I find it difficult to conceive of a situation where a developer will continue to pay Section 106 money as well as CIL. In the impact assessment for the Planning Bill, there are no figures in relation to CIL. It might well be that I have been negligent in not reading every document that one could have read in preparation for this Bill, but I cannot remember them. However, it would be a great pity if, for all this effort, the result was a bit of a damp squib and that, on balance, the amount raised from CIL was modest. Certainly the outlook for the next few years in the development business is that it will be a tough time.
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- Baroness HamweeLiberal Democrat
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- My Lords, grouped with this amendment is Amendment No. 26 in the name of my noble friend Lord Bradshaw, who has just entered the Chamber. The timing is immaculate. However, to allow him to get to his place, perhaps I may say that the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, took up the question of what is meant by the phrase “roads and other” in the line, “roads and other transport facilities”, in the definition of “infrastructure”—not so much what is meant by it but why it is necessary. I felt at the time that the noble Lord had a good point, but it was late at night and we were all finding it a bit difficult to articulate things. I believe it was suggested that it would be answered in writing. I do not think that I have seen a response to that. I may have missed it, in which case I apologise, but I have no doubt that the Minister has an answer now and it would be a shame if she did not have an opportunity to give it.
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Lord Harris of HaringeyLabour- Quote
- My Lords, I declare an interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association and the Association of Police Authorities. I intervene at this late stage in this Bill with some trepidation, partly because I spent 26 years as an elected member of local and regional government trying to avoid ever having anything to do with planning decisions, but more particularly because I have not previously successfully intervened in these debates. Having twice put down amendments at Committee and on Report, I thought it was inappropriate, having not been available to move them on those occasions, to put them down at Third Reading. However, Amendment No. 26, which we are considering in this group, gives me the opportunity to make a point. I am grateful to the Minister for arranging for me to meet officials on the question of why there is actually quite a long list of items of infrastructure in Clause 215, yet policing and emergency services are missed out. If I understand the argument that was put to me, I was told that the list was not intended to be exhaustive, but merely to set the boundaries of the sorts of things that might be included in the term “infrastructure”. If things such as emergency services, policing and fire services and so on were included that might turn it into an exhaustive list, which it is not. I am concerned that we will end up with a dog’s breakfast in Clause 215. We will have a list of items which will include some things and not others. It will include so many things that it might no longer be said to be just giving a few vague examples of things that might be deemed to be infrastructure for these purposes. It will end up providing a list. There is already evidence that local authorities are looking at it and saying that its implication is that those items included specifically in Clause 215 are what is really meant by infrastructure and those should be the priority in any community infrastructure levy. I hope that, in responding to Amendment No. 26 and the group, my noble friend will therefore make it clear that the list is not exhaustive and that she will give us a few more examples of what might be included, for the benefit of local authorities. Obviously, railways and airports—they have been discussed at previous stages of the Bill—could be included, but it should also be clear that the list includes policing and emergency services. I hope that she will be able to say that, because it is without question that many large developments require additional investments in policing and emergency services. The evidence is that large developments often bring with them increases in crime, and that there are issues about police response times and how you make sure that the development combats crime and disorder. Interestingly, the recent PPS12 advised that the core strategy within a local planning authority area should be prescriptive in terms of certain infrastructure requirements. It then listed a number of areas that should be identified as part of that process, including everything listed in Clause 215(2) and—it was the only “and”—the police. For some reason, when the list turns up in Clause 215(2), policing and emergency services are missed out. I hope that my noble friend will understand why there is concern about that strange list and that, in her response, she will clarify once and for all not only that the list is not exhaustive but that policing and emergency services—and, of course, railways—should be included.
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Lord BradshawLiberal Democrat- Quote
- My Lords, I apologise for my sudden arrival. The points were made perfectly adequately both by my noble friend and from the Minister’s side of the House. Simply, the list should not be focused on one thing; it should include all the infrastructure requirements of a local authority.
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- Baroness AndrewsLabour
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- My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, feels perfectly justified in bringing the amendment back at Third Reading, as we have had a wider debate—a collective debate on several separate issues. I applaud his tenacity in bringing forward his concerns. He and I disagree about the issue—as he described it, the chicken and egg. I will address the amendment before I come on to questions raised by other noble Lords. It should be noted that the amendment presents two clear and perverse opportunities to avoid paying CIL, which I am sure is not something that the noble Lord wants. First, there are no specified limits on the minimal amount of infrastructure that a building must house if it is not to become liable for CIL. That is because “infrastructure” in the amendment is not tied to the CIL definition of “infrastructure” in Clause 215. In the context of the amendment, “infrastructure” could have its ordinary meaning and cover things such as pipes. Therefore, it could exclude large numbers of new buildings on the grounds that they contain pipes, ducts or electric cables. Secondly, by providing that only new buildings housing infrastructure will be exempt from paying CIL, rather than allowing for changes to existing buildings housing infrastructure, the amendment risks distorting the behaviour of developers, who might seek to disguise changes to existing buildings as entirely new buildings housing infrastructure and thus not liable to pay. We cannot support the amendment. However, I am aware that, in our conversations about the nature of infrastructure and its impact, the noble Lord made it clear that the amendment on Report was probing and directed at finding what was and was not included in the definition of development liable to pay CIL. On the basis of the question that he raised about the text of the Bill, I think that that is still his intent. To answer the question, I will have to expand the argument a little. Noble Lords are aware that the purpose of CIL is to raise funds to provide infrastructure to support the development of an area. CIL is intended to spread costs of providing such infrastructure more fairly. I remind noble Lords that only 14 per cent of developments contribute to Section 106. As noble Lords will recall, there is a principle of fairness behind the logic. Infrastructure generates impact and costs. I take the point about chicken and egg but I do believe there is an ethical argument that it should contribute to the costs of local and sub-regional infrastructure given these impacts. I give two examples: schools generate huge amounts of road traffic and hospitals generate huge amounts of clinical and other waste. These are demands that those infrastructures can place on other infrastructures. That is why we believe that infrastructure should contribute to those needs because otherwise other development will have to pay higher rates of CIL in the generalised assessment to cover those costs. We have limited the notion of infrastructure. We principally sought to delineate liability in relation to buildings, because buildings by their nature are places where people congregate or travel to and from and they represent the sort of developments that local authorities plan for when considering their infrastructure needs. I know that this is not an entirely straightforward concept—there are powers in Clause 208(2)(a) to deal with difficult cases—but the word “buildings” should be interpreted in its ordinary sense. If you look at the Concise Oxford English Dictionary, you see that “building” is, “a permanent fixed structure forming an enclosure and providing protection from the elements etc (e.g. a house, school, factory, or stable)”. Given the impact that such buildings have on local infrastructure, we are right to explore in regulations whether they might contribute to these infrastructure costs through paying CIL. We have always said that exemption from CIL is a matter for regulations. We have not ruled out that there could be an exemption from CIL for infrastructure in addition to what is not covered because it is not a building—we have had some interesting exchanges on wind turbines, for example. However, we do not want to rule things out now on the face of the Bill before we have consulted on them. Any exemptions from CIL need to meet the criteria that we set out in paragraph 4.10 of the August document. I hope that the noble Lord will take some comfort from that. We have to think about things such as warehouses. These have a major impact on transport infrastructure, although in these cases the charging authority might decide to charge different rates of CIL for such developments because they have a different level of impact. On that basis, railway stations and harbour buildings would also be CIL-liable whereas structures such as railway lines and power lines would not. I appreciate that there is a power in Clause 208(2)(b) to cover other structures, but our intention in making regulations would be to cover those structures that are similar to buildings because they might place demands on infrastructure or benefit from it. As we indicated in our August document on CIL, we also intend that some development that might otherwise fall under Clause 208(1) will not be liable to pay CIL. Household developments by home owners are one such example. We also intend to exclude many developments for which planning permission is granted under the GPDO because such development is likely to have minimal impact on local infrastructure. These are complex issues. We have struggled with them at each stage of the Bill. We are pledged to continue to work closely with stakeholders on which development should be liable to pay CIL and which should not. We will certainly consult on the detail.
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- Lord Woolmer of LeedsLabour
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- My Lords, I asked two specific questions. Where in the documents before the House is there an estimate of revenues to be raised—that is, before the figures are revised—and do those estimates take account of the certain reduction in Section 106 contributions that are made to local authorities? I appreciate that those contributions are made by a small proportion of developers, but they relate to the major developments and the figures will be substantial. It would be helpful to me, if not to the House as a whole, to have a feel for the amounts expected to be raised and the amount of offset from Section 106. Those are important matters, which I am sure were carefully considered before the proposal was brought forward.
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- Baroness AndrewsLabour
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- My Lords, probably the best that I can offer my noble friend at the moment is a quotation from the August document, although I can send him the detail. Paragraph 4 of that document states: “The Government is already investing substantial additional funds to support housing growth and economic development. CIL will also provide further new resources. Estimates as to how much CIL will raise are heavily dependent on the number of local authorities that elect to charge CIL, and the rates that they charge. However, CIL is expected initially to raise hundreds of millions of pounds of extra funding per year towards the infrastructure that local communities need. While CIL will make a significant contribution to infrastructure provision, core public funding will continue to bear the main burden, and local authorities will need to utilise CIL alongside other funding streams to deliver infrastructure plans locally”. I cannot answer the specific question on the RIA as I do not have a copy and so cannot give the noble Lord a paragraph number. I will write to him and build on that. I hope that I have addressed all the questions that were raised. I shall make sure that I write if I have not.
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- Lord Dixon-SmithConservative
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- My Lords, the Minister has, as always, been generous with her time and done her best to answer the questions. The people who will have to interpret everything that has been said, both in this Chamber and in another place, are those who, ultimately, will sit down to draft the regulations. Although I am in no hurry to see them, I look forward to them with considerable interest, to see how those people manage to interpret everything that has been said on this subject. I am grateful to the Minister.
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- Baroness AndrewsLabour
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- My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, may I put a correction on the record? In answering my noble friend, I should have said “police stations”, meaning the buildings, rather than “police”. I wanted to make that absolutely clear and I apologise to the noble Lord for interrupting.
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- Lord Dixon-SmithConservative
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- My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 209 [Charities]:
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Lord Shutt of GreetlandLiberal Democrat- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 16:
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The Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of Tara)Conservative- Quote
- My Lords, I should point out that if this amendment is agreed to, I shall not be able to call Amendment No. 17.
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Lord Cameron of DillingtonCrossbench- Quote
- My Lords, I shall speak to my three amendments in this group. I have no wish to repeat the arguments that I set out in previous stages of the Bill. It has been proven again and again that charities deliver public benefit, including benefit that comes within the definition of community infrastructure, at far better value than any public administration can, usually because of the voluntary input of labour and the localised nature of many charities. The idea of raising money in any form from charities to be spent by the public sector is a negative benefit for society. For the Treasury to be shy about giving a total exemption for charities is short-sighted. My second general point is that the charitable sector is already very heavily regulated, with no room for manoeuvre for charities outside their charitable purposes and with every aspect of their business having to be explained to and audited by the Charity Commission. I cannot believe that there is any room for underhand dealings—certainly nothing that any extra regulation or control can do to make a ha’p’orth of difference in this field, apart from causing all charities, especially the very small ones, unnecessary extra costs in the form of lawyers and accountants to comply with an extra layer of unnecessary regulation.
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Lord Hodgson of Astley AbbottsConservative- Quote
- My Lords, I add my thanks to the Minister for the trouble she has taken, the letters she has written and the way she has tried to reach a solution on this rather tricky issue. In her letter she refers to the question of “purpose” or “purposes” which we discussed last time. She wrote to us to explain that “purpose” or “purposes” in her letter was the same under the Interpretation Act. It might be helpful if she could say that on the Floor of the House this evening. While many people will undoubtedly read her letter, more people will read the proceedings of this House in Hansard, so if she could say it again, that would be extraordinarily helpful. I have a great deal of sympathy with Amendment No. 16 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Shutt. As he graphically pointed out, it is discriminatory against charities which happen to have ended up with their assets in land as opposed to in investments on the stock market. The Government have concerns about a windfall from development. It seems strange that you could get a windfall from a takeover on the stock market and be liable to no tax but on the other hand, as the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, pointed out, you could be CIL-able in terms of a land holding. Charities tend to be quite rich in land because schools and care homes will have land. Therefore, there will tend to be discrimination against them and against people who seek to leave property to charity in the future. I take slight issue with the Minister’s officials about one aspect of the letter. In our previous debate, I referred to the fact that Section 36 of the Charities Act 1993 contained an anti-avoidance provision. I felt that it underlined the reasons why Amendment No. 16, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, was worth pursuing. Her officials describe this as a reasonably undemanding requirement on the charity and what it can do. It is worth pointing out that the Act requires that, if there is a connected party, the disposition must go to the Charity Commission, whatever happens. In any case, the trustees have to, “obtain and consider a written report on the proposed disposition from a qualified surveyor instructed by the trustees and acting exclusively for the charity”— and— “advertise the proposed disposition for such period and in such manner as the surveyor has advised”. Having considered the surveyor’s report, they must consider, “that the terms on which the disposition is proposed to be made are the best that can reasonably be obtained for the charity”. There follows a definition of who the qualified surveyor must be. It is not fair for the Minister and her officials to say that these are reasonably undemanding requirements, as they force the charity to consider very carefully what it is doing and to take appropriate advice. If the charity fails to do that, the charitable resources requirement requires the Charity Commission to ensure that charitable resources are being used properly. One therefore wonders whether the Government have the appropriate confidence in the Charity Commission to carry out this task. I understand why they wish to leave this to the regulations. Indeed, the Minister says that draft regulations will be published in the spring and that they will listen carefully to the views of the sector, but this is the heart of the difficulty; we will have passed the Bill before the regulations come out. Moreover, the regulations are not amendable and will not come to this House, so it really is good night from us tonight on the detail of this part of the Bill. The issue of changing “may” to “must” has been detailed by the noble Lord, Lord Cameron. It simply does not make sense for officials to write letters saying that this would be otiose and would lead to unworkable results, with duties that were impossible to fulfil. It would be helpful when the Minister winds up if she could give us some real-life examples of why this would be so. On our Amendment No. 21, the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, has a rather more draconian, scorched earth approach in that he wants to blast the whole thing out of the way, but I think that we need to make the change that the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, has outlined: no ifs, no buts, no maybes. There are very clear controls on the way in which the clause will operate: you have to be a relevant charity, so there is no question of you being able to sneak into this; and, unless the Minister accepts Amendment No. 16, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, there will be regulations, which can be drawn up in such a way that they are anti-avoidance measures. We therefore do not need to think of a further, final failsafe in an anti-avoidance provision. I very much hope that the Minister will see that Amendment No. 21—and Amendment No. 25, which would ensure that the clause applies only to subsection (2)—is absolutely critical to maintain the confidence that the charitable sector should have in the way in which the Government propose to apply CIL to charities.
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Lord BestCrossbench- Quote
- My Lords, I have two short speeches to make in quick succession on these amendments. The charities most affected by the possibility of paying the community infrastructure levy are the housing associations, which are building tens of thousands of homes on which this new levy would be charged over and over again. We have reached a point where it is clear that those housing associations that are charities will be excluded and will not have to pay CIL. In all normal circumstances, Clause 209 will cut them out, which is extremely good news and very positive. The housing associations divide between the 70 per cent that are charities and the remainder that are not charities because, usually for slightly obscure historical reasons, they decided not to register as charities. I had responsibility for helping such organisations to register between 1968 and 1988, which gave me 20 years of looking at the constitutions of those different organisations. About 30 per cent of them are housing co-operatives or organisations that are industrial and provident societies without charitable status. Even though they make up only 30 per cent of housing associations, they make up about 50 per cent of the total housing association output. If they are not also excluded we will run into all kinds of anomalies. When one looks at the two types of organisation side by side, it is hard to be sure which is and which is not a charity. I hope that the Minister will place on record some of the very helpful comments that she made to us in a letter. She expressed the view that she hopes it will be possible, after consultation with the National Housing Federation and others, to find the regulations to ensure that those organisations that do not happen to be charities but are also providing this much needed affordable housing are included in the same exemption from CIL. I am hoping to hear—again, it is a matter of saying this on the Floor of the House, which is important to those in the world outside—that it is the Government’s intention that all housing associations that are making the same provision of social housing for the same kind of people will be placed in the same position for CIL, which I hope is a fairly straightforward statement. Otherwise, we will have half the production line of affordable housing by these organisations disadvantaged and confused. All kinds of anomalies will creep in as to which kind of organisation a builder or a local authority wants to work with. It would be immensely helpful if we could have clarity regarding the Government’s intention to place all housing associations on the same footing if they are doing exactly the same job with the same subsidies and the same governmental support. My second speech relates to the amendment specifically about charities. I have followed the ebb and flow of this debate very closely and with a good deal of interest. Obviously, we must recognise that the Minister has already—perhaps she has not been given a sainthood for this part of the Bill—moved a long way towards putting in the Bill the fact that there will be a 100 per cent non-negotiable exemption for charities in all normal circumstances. That is the effect of the way in which the Bill is phrased. However, she has reserved unto government the fact that in regulations there will be the opportunity in exceptional circumstances to say no to that overarching 100 per cent general exemption. It would not be like rate relief which, for example, is 80 per cent relief or VAT which is 0 per cent relief. As someone who runs charities, I know that we have to pay some taxes, such as VAT. I turn to those that have invested in land. I ran the Joseph Rowntree Housing Trust for many years and we had a portfolio that included land that will go for future development. Indeed, the trust still owns such land. I was musing on the point that an investment by charities in land should be treated in the same way as an investment in stocks and shares; that is, if they are sold, no capital gains tax is payable. But if land is held for investment, when it is sold, the charity would not pay CIL at that point; it would be payable further down the line by the housebuilder who purchases the land. However, it would not be payable if the purchaser was a charitable housing association. Therefore, this would affect only indirectly the investment of the Rowntree foundation and others holding land for investment purposes. I absolutely take the point. The question for us, having put into the Bill a 100 per cent exemption in normal circumstances, is whether we can be given sufficient reassurance about the exceptions to those normal circumstances in which the Government reserve the right to say no. I chair the Giving Forum which looks at ways in which giving and donations can be increased. We are promoting, for example, the idea of lifetime legacies, ways of giving during someone’s lifetime but still getting some benefit. I have come up against the staunch resistance of the Treasury to measures that might be abused by clever lawyers using obscure charity law to benefit individuals or companies. Tedious as it is, I have come to recognise that it is possible for avoidance measures to creep in to such schemes. On state aid and the European dimension, I am afraid that I have no understanding of why that is an inhibition at all, but I appreciate that the Treasury has its own lawyers who will put up a very hard fight to ensure that there is in regulations a safety net for the Government that provides that although in normal circumstances there will be a 100 per cent exemption, the Government can reserve the right in some perhaps obscure situations nevertheless to call in the CIL exemption. We are not going to get past that because the government lawyers are going to be fairly adamant. That seems to be a pretty solid brick wall. We can take a rush at it, although possibly the rush would go a bit too far with the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Shutt. However, those tabled by my noble friend Lord Cameron of Dillington, the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Southwell and Nottingham, do not. I hope that we can be given sufficient reassurance not to have to push this too hard. I have a great deal more sympathy with those amendments rather than seeking to go at this head on. I hope, too, that the Minister can give us a few more words of comfort before we take the next steps on this.
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Baroness FordCrossbench- Quote
- My Lords, I want to intervene to say a few words about the state aid legislation. I have enjoyed our thoughtful debates on this at each stage of the Bill and I pay tribute to my friend for the journey she has made and the willingness she has shown in trying to encompass all the genuine points made on the charities aspect. I want to say in particular to the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, that I do not think that we can simply disregard state aid. I do not accept that what the Government are trying to do here is somehow to “gold plate”—I believe that was the expression he used—this part of the regulations. Over 25 years, I have found that the most vexatious and time-consuming work is creating structures for real estate and for regeneration which avoid charitable and non-profit-making organisations falling into the trap of state aid. I have to say to the House that of all the areas I have been involved in, this is one in which the European Union has tremendous expertise and incredibly long tentacles in its reach into such projects. The Union is very proficient at understanding how to realise value from these and when state aid is in fact being granted. It took me two and a half years to secure claims for the English Cities Fund in a way that did not contravene state aid rules. It is immensely sophisticated in its application of state aid, and at our peril would we take lightly the advice coming from the Minister on this point.
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Lord GeddesConservative- Quote
- My Lords, I apologise to the House for intervening on this important Bill only at this late stage of Third Reading, but I have continued reservations on this charitable question. I strongly support Amendments Nos. 19, 21 and 25. I shall speak briefly on those in a moment, but I have a problem with government Amendment No. 22. I much prefer Amendment No. 20 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Shutt. If Amendment No. 22 is carried, I do not, in my ignorance, see how it makes sense. Unless I have completely misinterpreted it, Clause 209(3) would then read: “Regulations under subsection (1) or (2) may provide that an exemption or reduction does not apply if specified conditions are satisfied”. That appears to be a contradiction in terms, although I may be quite wrong on this. I do not like the clause, but it would make more sense if it read, “reduction does not apply unless specified”, and so on. Perhaps the officials could scribble a memo or two to the Minister to clarify that. I return to the other amendments. In Amendment No. 19—the “must/may” argument—I found it incongruous that subsection (1) has “must” while subsection (2) has only “may”. On Amendment No. 21 I can do no better than support what my noble friend Lord Hodgson has said, while Amendment No. 25 is to an extent consequential on Amendment No. 21. I urge the Minister to look again at the whole question of charitable status, particularly for those who are building and renovating buildings that are themselves in the charitable sector.
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Lord Livsey of TalgarthLiberal Democrat- Quote
- My Lords, I shall comment on Amendment No.16 and others tabled by my noble friend Lord Shutt. I am involved in 15 charities and voluntary bodies, which are declared in the Register of Lords’ Interests. There is no question that the ability of these charities to survive is very tenuous in some cases, while others are doing exceptionally well. The ones I am associated with that I have great concerns about are environmental charities, which often own property and land and which provide a superb service, not only for country dwellers but also for those in metropolitan areas. They would be captured in the net as the Bill is currently phrased. The amendments would provide a lifeline to many charities by ensuring that they were not unfairly penalised.
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- Baroness WhitakerLabour
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- My Lords, I was puzzled by many of these amendments. I am involved in a number of charities, as is evident from the Register of Lords’ Interests. The noble Lord’s amendment to Clause 209 does not seem reasonable. It would be unreasonable to fetter the Executive as tightly as some of these amendments would oblige. It may be that noble Lords opposite do not contemplate being in government and that were they to be so they might take a different view. I was much persuaded by the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Best. He was talking, of course, about exemptions for charities. Speaking generally, the term “charity” covers a wide range of undertakings, and the activities of charitable institutions are also very varied—the charity owned by Northern Rock had some curious aspects. Some charitable trusts put up buildings that have significant infrastructure implications; for example, a big art gallery in a city centre. Such trusts are economic undertakings when they charge to make a return on investments and to create additional funds. We are party to treaty obligations not to create unfair competition through state aid, with penalties, including for the charities, if we do. I live not far from the piers of the south-east coast, which could be a case in point. There is a real difference between what non-government Members may suggest and what Governments can actually do. I hope we do not accept constraints that would be quite unsuitable.
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- Baroness AndrewsLabour
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- My Lords, I have had the hand of history as well as comparisons to a vision of sainthood offered to me this afternoon. I am extremely grateful for all the kind things that have been said across the House. I pay tribute to my officials for an extraordinary job of work. The issues raised by the amendment have taxed us all. On the other hand, of course, I have been accused of prevarication and obscuration. I wish that I had gone through the Charities Act 2006 with noble Lords. I suspect that, having been here for the passage of that Act, which was pretty heavy going, I would have understood many things that I have had to learn quickly in the past few days. I understand why the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, and the right reverend Prelate call for clarity. We are trying to make things as unambiguous as possible in legislation, so that we can have certainty about outcome and impact. That is absolutely the right thing to do. Sometimes, however, clarity comes at the expense of risk. Things are complex. The problem with the third sector, as the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, pointed out, is that it is hugely diverse and complex in terms of what it does, charities’ objectives, how they work, their relationships, their economic arrangements with trading funds and so on. We are incredibly privileged to have this sector, but it is by no means simple. In all my dealings with noble Lords over the past few weeks, discussing these amendments with the Charity Tax Group, listening to debates and so on, I am reminded time and again how complex these areas are and how vital it is to be careful about what we are doing. Underlying everything I say this evening is a deep desire to do what is right and safe for the third sector, and to make absolutely sure that what we have will be as fully protective and enabling as possible. I know that noble Lords originally had a number of concerns about Clause 209 and how we will use the powers it gives us to help charities in the important work that they do. I shall address those first. I think that noble Lords have now received the letter that was sent by email at 11 pm last night. I am sorry that it was not sent earlier, but it was complex to draft. It might be helpful if I quickly run through the purposes behind the various components of Clause 209 again. The heart of the clause is subsection (1) and the guarantee which it represents; that is, that CIL regulations must include a 100 per cent exemption from CIL where the liable party is a, “relevant charity in England and Wales”, and the development is to be used wholly or mainly for its charitable purposes. The noble Lord, Lord Best, spelt that out in his contribution. A relevant charity in this context is defined in subsection (4) as any charity registered with the Charity Commission or which is excepted or exempt from the duty to register with the Charity Commission. It is not just about registered charities. The subsection covers many scenarios: a lifeboat station developed for use by the RNLI, for example, or a hostel which would be used by a homelessness charity. It would also apply to a building only to be used as a head office for a charity. The noble Lord, Lord Shutt, was talking about land on this point. However, CIL becomes liable only if there is development on it. It is extremely important to recognise that when charities buy and sell land alone, CIL is not directly engaged. Charities are in fact asked for Section 106 contributions, reflecting that their developments have impacts. We are looking at whether Section 106 could be scaled back so that charities might benefit from that. That is the reality. I shall plough on. Not all types of charitable body will fall within the scope of subsection (1) and, in addition, some charities and charitable bodies may perform development, perhaps for investment purposes, which may not constitute using a building for charitable purposes, to which the 100 per cent exemption in subsection (1) is tied. We certainly want to explore providing as wide a range of relief as is legally and practically possible in regulations. One noble Lord—I am sorry that I do not know who—talked about “regulations by chance”. There will be nothing chancy about these regulations. The Charity Tax Group is committed to working with us assiduously on this, as it has done so far. I have no doubt that it will be as tough and comprehensive as it needs to be. Because we want as wide a range of relief as is legally and practically possible, subsection (2) provides a power for regulations to go further than the duty imposed in subsection (1). It does this in two ways. First, subsection (2)(a) provides a power in CIL regulations to provide an exemption to institutions established for charitable purposes which fall outside the coverage of subsection (1). We have expanded the scope of the clause precisely to enable us to help more charities. For example, this would allow us to cover those in Scotland and Northern Ireland, and, if appropriate, other EU charities where they wished to develop in England and Wales. Secondly, subsection (2)(b) empowers CIL regulations to require charging authorities to make arrangements for an exemption or reduction to CIL to institutions established for charitable purposes. This will allow us to comply with EU law when giving relief, and, expanding the clause, allows us to explore providing exemptions or reductions for charities which are engaging in fundraising activities which fall outside the scope of subsection (1)—for example, where land is developed for investment purposes. I will come to investment activity, as the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, invited me to do, because there are some complex issues. They require serious discussion and further exploration with interested parties such as the Charity Tax Group. I reassure noble Lords who are concerned that subsection (5) may be used to cut back the range of charities that may enjoy the 100 per cent exemption in subsection (1) that this is not legally possible. We cannot do that. This subsection applies only to the powers in subsection (2) and cannot be applied to the duty in subsection (1). We introduced subsection (3) in an amendment on Report. The original subsection stipulated that regulations may provide that an exemption or reduction under subsections (1) and (2), “applies only if specified conditions are satisfied”. That caused noble Lords concern, which I understand. I gave assurances on Report that we could not lawfully use the powers to render the duty in subsection (1) meaningless or hollow. There was a feeling, which I regret, that somehow that qualification would render subsection (1) null and void. It does not, and would not have. I therefore undertook to take away the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, seeking to delete the subsection. It has been put to us that this subsection does not provide sufficient comfort to the charities that regulations implementing this subsection will reflect our broad policy aims. It seems to presume non-exemption with unspecified conditions. That was the problem with the original drafting. We came back with Amendment No. 22, which amends subsection (3) so that regulations can provide that an exemption does not apply if certain conditions are satisfied. I understand that this is not elegant, but we have had to be deliberate in our drafting. As we have amended this clause, it will convey the message to charities that being exempt where a development is used for the charitable purposes of the charity will be the usual situation, as the noble Lord, Lord Best, said. Where very specific conditions are satisfied, however, an exemption may not apply. I shall come to those conditions in a moment. It is symbolic that we are approaching the giving of exemptions to charities as being our presumption. There is now a presumption as regards exemptions. I should also make it plain that we are not intending to use this power to find some general way out—I should feel deeply insulted if anyone thought that we were—of providing an exemption of the sort required under subsection (1). It is for exceptional circumstances. Far from intending to be harmful, subsection (3) is intended to help because it will allow us to work with the sector to decide what sort of conditions should feature in regulations. I have spoken to many of your Lordships over the past few weeks and they will know that the two conditions we particularly will apply to subsections (1) and (2) concern anti-avoidance and compliance with state aid law. We are talking about risk. That is why the relevant amendment was tabled. As regards the anti-avoidance measure, it is important that regulations have powers to outline anti-avoidance measures. It is not without parallel. For example, Schedule 8 to the Finance Act 2003 stipulates the condition to the relief for charities from stamp duty land tax. It states that, “the transaction must not have not been entered into for the purpose of avoiding tax under this Part (whether by the purchaser or any other person)”. I am aware of the argument about bureaucracy and imposing another layer of regulation. I know that noble Lords are unwilling to countenance what they see as further regulation in a heavily regulated sector, but the charitable sector is heavily regulated because there is a lot of public interest and public money at stake. Private money is also involved. It is a hugely complicated financial sector which has to be regulated in the way that it is. However, subsection (3) does not automatically impose further regulation. It is a starting point for discussions with the sector and other stakeholders on what conditions relating to anti-avoidance might look like. I assure noble Lords, not least with the Better Regulation Task Force in mind, that avoiding unnecessary duplication of existing regulation will be uppermost in our minds during this process. As regards Europe, I was very grateful for the contribution of the noble Baroness, Lady Ford, because few people know about what she referred to as the long tentacles of Europe, and the sharp eyes. I believe that we are absolutely right not to take any risks, however remote people feel they may be. It is vital that regulations can protect the charity sector from a breach of state aid rules, the penalties for which are serious and could involve charities having to repay relief, with interest. I understand that some noble Lords are sceptical about this issue but we cannot afford to ignore the risk of this happening. Again, this is an issue which has been brought up in other regimes giving charitable exemptions. For business rates, the guidance on rate reliefs for charities and other non-profit making organisations published by a former incarnation of my department in 2002 brings this issue to the attention of local authorities and sets out how they should respond where a state aid is given under this regime. This is not a distraction, as a noble Lord said. The European Commission rules on state aid state: “Aid must have a potential effect on competition and trade between Member States. It is sufficient if it can be shown that the beneficiary is involved in an economic activity and that he operates in a market in which there is trade between Member States. The nature of the beneficiary is not relevant in this context (even a non-profit organisation can engage in economic activities)”. The European Commission takes a very wide, purposive approach to EU law in practice. Therefore, we are trying to be careful, to anticipate, to use foresight and to use evidence as the basis of our judgment. Our view is that state aid law can be engaged even where a development is to be used for a charitable purpose since charities can be engaged in an economic activity, be in competition with other undertakings and are engaged in an activity where there is trade between member states. Building houses in England and Wales and selling them on is an economic activity which many companies from across Europe engage in. Government Amendment No. 23 is a purely technical change. Currently, Clause 209(4)(b) applies only to institutions registered in the register of charities kept by the Charity Commission under Section 3 of the Charities Act 1993. However, as a consequence of the commencement of Section 9 of the Charities Act 2006, the register will be kept under Section 3A of the 1993 Act. This amendment therefore amends Clause 209(4)(b) to cater for this change when it comes into force.
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- Lord Shutt of GreetlandLiberal Democrat
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- My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have taken part in this lengthy debate of more than an hour. I will make one comment on the specific point of the noble Lord, Lord Best. My Amendment No. 24 exactly covers the example that he gave of the housing association that is not a charity. I started out by saying that I wanted “clarity with charity” and I return to that theme. I do not know whether I am being portrayed as an extremist: I prefer “purist”. The interesting thing is that there is no difference between what I am proposing for what happens to land that is built upon by a charity, either for itself or for a charitable purpose, and what happens now. What is now being proposed will make things more difficult and complex. I have sympathy for the Minister, because she has a poor brief and a poor hand. It took her 26 minutes to try to explain this to us: it is very difficult. The noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, used the word “CIL-able”. I would alter that to “CIL-ability”. I do not think, after 26 minutes, that anybody can say what the CIL-ability is of any specific development. That is the problem with the Bill. It is all going to be, “Let’s hope we get something in the spring in regulations”. The aim today is to get clarity for charity. Therefore, I wish to test the opinion of the House.
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- Lord Cameron of DillingtonCrossbench
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- moved Amendment No. 21:
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- Baroness AndrewsLabour
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- moved Amendments Nos. 22 and 23:
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Lord Jenkin of RodingConservative- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 27:
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Lord GoodhartLiberal Democrat- Quote
- My Lords, the Government have been constructive, through the Minister, in response to many amendments proposed by other Members. However, the response to the issue of the involvement of your Lordships' House in the making of the regulations that will be needed under the Bill has been negative, to say the least. I must make it clear that I do not speak today on behalf of the Delegated Powers Committee, because it has not had an opportunity as a committee to consider the amendment. However, one necessary function of the committee is to see that the rights of your Lordships’ House are not overlooked or diminished by legislation that the Government propose to introduce. That, I am afraid, is what is happening now. We should surely start from the presumption that the roles of your Lordships’ House and of the House of Commons in respect of delegated legislation are equal, subject to the exception of supply Bills and other financial Bills and to the exercise of financial privilege of the House of Commons. I therefore greatly regret the vote last week that resulted in your Lordships’ House rejecting its own right to claim involvement in the making of statutory instruments. That weakened your Lordships’ House. It would have been a good thing if new regulations had required resolutions of both Houses—certainly in many cases. That is especially so because the secondary legislation gets far less attention in the House of Commons than it does here. The House of Commons has nothing equivalent to the Delegated Powers Committee or the Merits of Statutory Instruments Committee. Debates in the House of Commons on statutory instruments are notoriously brief.
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- Lord Howarth of NewportLabour
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- My Lords, I am extremely glad that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, has found a way to bring this important issue back to the House at Third Reading. We owe him a debt of gratitude for identifying the issue and pursuing it so resolutely. The arguments that he and the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, presented to the House in our debate on Amendment No. 130 on Report and the arguments that they have presented today are irrefutable. I have never seen my noble friend the Minister so miserable in dutifully defending the indefensible. In our vote on the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, on Report, this House deprived itself of the power and the responsibility—long-established without peradventure and amply demonstrated in the many precedents cited by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin—to approve or disapprove regulations governing charges or levies as opposed to taxes raised for the Exchequer on the principle that the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, just explained. That was a gratuitous act of self-immolation. If significant constitutional change is to be introduced, it should not be introduced as an incidental aspect of legislation. Although I make no personal criticism of my noble friend the Minister, I believe that in introducing this change the Government should have been candid with the House. Equally, the House should have been vigilant. The House should not abandon its rights and its responsibilities without the most careful consideration, in a fit of absence of mind. That is what happened last week when we had a vote on a poor turnout and, by 96 votes to 90, as I recollect, the noble Lord’s amendment was lost. This amendment gives us the chance to retrieve at least a good part of what we threw away last week. I hope that the House will acquit itself better today than it did last week.
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- Lord Boyd of DuncansbyCrossbench
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- My Lords, I did not support the Government in the Lobbies on the vote last week. Although I was in the building, I absented myself from the vote. That was because I am a member of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, which had reached a clear view on what the proper procedure should be. For those reasons, I felt that I could not support the Government. I would certainly have no difficulty, however, in supporting the Government in the Lobbies tonight if this matter is pushed to a vote. There are three reasons for that. First, although the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, says that he respects the vote last week, it seems clear that this is an attempt to revisit that vote.
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- Lord Jenkin of RodingConservative
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- My Lords, if I did not make it clear, I now make it absolutely clear that I am not seeking in any way to give this House a joint right to approve the regulations. The House decided last week that it did not want that and I made it clear in my opening speech that I am not challenging that. All I want is that we should have a say.
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- Lord Boyd of DuncansbyCrossbench
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- My Lords, I take that point; I was referring more to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart. Nevertheless, this House took a decision last week, albeit by a small majority, on the way ahead. The second reason why I oppose this is that it seems to bring a new procedure into the legislature. I have been a member of this House for only two years, but I have never seen any procedure like this before. We have never discussed this or anything like it in the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee.
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- Lord GoodhartLiberal Democrat
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- My Lords, I understand the noble Lord’s position, but I refer him to the super-affirmative provision that was included in the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Act 2006. That provision is not unlike, although it is somewhat broader than, those contained in this amendment.
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- Lord Boyd of DuncansbyCrossbench
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- My Lords, the super-affirmative provision within the legislative reform procedure is there because we are dealing with primary legislation. This is not primary legislation; it is subordinate legislation.
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- Lord Howarth of NewportLabour
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- My Lords, was not a procedure—closely akin to the procedure that the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, envisages—adopted by the House last Monday in a Motion moved by the noble Lady, Baroness Thomas of Winchester, in which social security regulations were considered by the House?
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- Lord Boyd of DuncansbyCrossbench
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- My Lords, I am not aware of that provision; the noble Lord has the advantage of me in that respect. It does seem, however, that this is a new procedure within primary legislation to deal with subordinate legislation. The third reason why I cannot support the amendment is that it seems to have flaws. The new procedure would provide that no subordinate legislation would be made by the House of Commons unless a period of 60 days had elapsed. During that period of 60 days, either House of Parliament would have the opportunity to debate the regulations or to refer them to any committee for a report. What would happen if, on the 59th day of that period of 60 days, one of the Houses—particularly this House, as it might be seen as obstructive of the House of Commons—referred the regulations to a committee? Would that suspend the operation of the 60 days?
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- Lord GoodhartLiberal Democrat
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- My Lords, I should have thought it pretty clear that it would not. There is a 60-day period within which a committee would have to produce a report and, if it had not produced a report by the 59th day, there would be nothing left for it to do.
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- Lord Boyd of DuncansbyCrossbench
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- My Lords, I say with the greatest respect to the noble Lord that new subsection (3) says: “During the period of 60 days— (a) either House of Parliament may— (i) debate, or pass a resolution relating to, the regulations, or (ii) refer the regulations to any committee for a report”. It seems to me that if, on the 59th day, the regulations are referred to any committee for a report, it is obvious that no report can be obtained from that committee before the 60th day.
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- Lord Jenkin of RodingConservative
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- My Lords, the noble and learned Lord is misreading the amendment. The words, “During the period of 60 days”, in subsection (3) cover both paragraphs (a) and (b). Subsection (b) states that, “the Secretary of State must respond”. The circumstances postulated by the noble and learned Lord, frankly, lack credibility. Sixty days should be enough for either House to make a point and for the Government to respond. We are simply asking for this House to have a say.
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- Lord GoodhartLiberal Democrat
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- My Lords, perhaps the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, would look—
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Lord Davies of OldhamLabour- Quote
- My Lords, I hesitate to intervene, but this is Third Reading and we are rapidly turning it into Committee proceedings. This should be the last intervention in my noble and learned friend’s speech.
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- Lord GoodhartLiberal Democrat
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- My Lords, I should like to make this point. Paragraph (c), which refers to the affirmative resolution procedure, states that the regulations, “shall not be made unless, before approval by the House of Commons, a period of 60 days has elapsed, beginning with the day on which the regulations were laid”. Surely that makes it perfectly obvious that the House of Commons can proceed with its resolution at the end of the 60-day period without waiting any longer for any report to emerge.
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- Lord Boyd of DuncansbyCrossbench
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- My Lords, in one sense, that makes my point. If, towards the end of the 60 days within which it can refer the matter to a committee, the House refers it to a committee, that makes the whole thing pretty pointless. In my submission, this House has taken a decision on the correct way forward and has said that it is content that the House of Commons should exercise its privilege in financial matters. We should now accept that.
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- Lord Dixon-SmithConservative
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- My Lords, my name is added to this amendment, so I believe that I am entitled to say something, although I have little to add to what my noble friend has said. I find the remarks of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd of Duncansby, very depressing. In earlier stages of the Bill, it was quite clear, in discussions on other matters, that there was a view on the government Benches that it would be completely alien for Members of this House or of Parliament to behave efficiently and in a businesslike way, that that would never happen and that progress could not be made. I am sorry, but I do not believe or accept that. It is very depressing that anyone could even make those kinds of remarks. We have spent a great deal of time already in this House considering CIL. If we have no place in the decision-making on this, what have we been doing? As the result of consideration here, the Bill has been greatly improved. That justifies my noble friend’s amendment.
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- Baroness HamweeLiberal Democrat
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- My Lords, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd of Duncansby, started to give his critique, my heart sank, but when I realised that paragraph (c) in the amendment would be part of Clause 221(2), that subsection (3) would be a separate subsection and that paragraph (c) is not subject to subsection (3), my spirits rose again. I had not thought it likely that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, and my noble friend, who worked together closely on this amendment, would have made a basic drafting error, although, for about 30 seconds, I thought that the noble and learned Lord had spotted one. It has been put to me that, even without this amendment, this House could do what is suggested by having a debate, passing a resolution and setting up a committee. That is so, but paragraph (b)—the provision that the Secretary of State must respond—is at the heart of good scrutiny; it requires a response and feedback. The attention to detail shown by your Lordships’ House to Part 11 over the past few days demonstrates the value of such scrutiny. The arrangements proposed in the amendment would perfectly capture the skills of this House, although they do not go as far as those that some of us supported when dealing with the amendment last week. We are told that this is not a tax—although that raises issues. However, the development and regeneration that might come about as a result of this levy will certainly be affected by the detail as well as by the principle. Again, this House would have a valuable role to play. Finally, the comment was made—possibly by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin—that the House of Commons and the House of Lords have equal roles in a bicameral Parliament. I would say that they are complementary—perhaps they are equal and complementary—and the complementary element is captured by this amendment, which we on these Benches support.
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- The Earl of CaithnessConservative
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- My Lords, at Second Reading, I criticised the Minister for excluding this House from looking at the regulations. I put my name to the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, in Committee, as I believe that it is important that this House should be consulted at least in this small way. Without the work that we have done in Committee, on Report and, today, at Third Reading, this Bill would be in considerably worse shape. To exclude this House is purely a political decision; it has nothing to do with the policy in the Bill. The Minister should think carefully about the route that she is taking.
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- Baroness AndrewsLabour
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- My Lords, I am well aware of the strong feeling about the role of the House as we have worked through this part of the Bill. I absolutely understand the genuine passions expressed so consistently, particularly by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin. However, I need to remind the House that last week we resolved, on Report, not to accept the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, which would have provided for all CIL regulations to be made subject to the affirmative resolution of both Houses. This is a question not of what the Minister wants, but of what the House wants, and the House decided last week that it did not want affirmative regulations. This is not a political issue. While I understand the disappointment that has been caused, I think that the amendment would create more problems than it would solve. It would provide, alongside the affirmative procedure in the other place, for a 60-day period during which either House could debate or pass a resolution on the draft regulations, or refer the draft regulations to any committee for report. The Secretary of State would then have to respond to any debate, resolution or report before the other place could give its approval to the regulations. The amendment would control the circumstances in which the other place might approve any CIL regulations. Sixty days would have to pass and the other place could not approve regulations until the Secretary of State had responded to any debate, resolution or report. I will come to the procedural issues in a moment. On the practical details, I ask noble Lords to think about what would be involved. Part of the problem is that we do not know. The amendment risks turning the process for making CIL regulations into a long and complex one. It would permit this House to refer a draft of the CIL regulations to a committee to consider and issue a report. My noble and learned friend Lord Boyd asked some pertinent questions and some clarification was forthcoming. All I can see is that there would be considerable delay in making CIL regulations. The process would also apply to amendments to CIL regulations to close a loophole or to correct a minor error. We are looking at a long procedure every time that we try to amend CIL regulations. Throughout this process we have tried to balance fairness and transparency with greater speed so that we can put arrangements in place to raise the funding that we now so urgently need for local infrastructure. On timing, I indicated that the Government would not make the CIL regulations before autumn 2009. However, once it is right to do so, surely those regulations should be made promptly to enable charging authorities to generate additional revenue for infrastructure. The substantive response to the amendment rests on two arguments. The first is that—with the exceptions of delaying the other place’s affirmative resolution debate by 60 days and compelling the Secretary of State to respond to the debate or resolution—what the noble Lord seeks to achieve is already achievable. My noble friend Lord Howarth referred to last week’s debate and the Motion tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas. There is nothing to prevent this House from debating anything that it wants on a Motion, if it should so choose. There are two issues there. The amendment would also require the Secretary of State to respond to any debate, resolution or report made by either House. It is unclear what form this response would take. How useful would it be? Exactly what duty would be placed on the Secretary of State? What would it do to the relationship between the two Houses in terms of secondary legislation? I argue that, as noble Lords have emphasised in practically every speech, the role of our House is one of scrutiny and revision. My fear is that we would not have scrutiny and that this procedure would diminish the value of the scrutiny that we offer; it would dilute the notion of scrutiny. This would be a debate without powers to annul, at a time when we are absolutely insistent on the value of this House. What I said to the noble Lord in my letter was perfectly compatible with what I have just said and with my respect for this House. There is a genuine problem there with the role of this House. Secondly, my noble friend Lord Howarth talked about a constitutional change suddenly being imposed. This is my real anxiety. We are inventing a new form of parliamentary procedure for secondary legislation. This is a new convention, which raises fundamental issues about the relationship between the two Houses in considering secondary legislation.
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- Lord Howarth of NewportLabour
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- My Lords, will my noble friend explain why the Government felt it appropriate to set aside an existing constitutional convention?
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- Baroness AndrewsLabour
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- My Lords, I really do not think that is comparable. As I said, it raises profound questions, not only about the relationship between the two Houses in considering secondary legislation but about the role of the Secretary of State in this. When this House chooses to change and improve, it does so on the basis of serious consideration that crosses all parties. I have sympathy with what the noble Lord has tried to do, but I am seriously concerned that it would have dire consequences for the business of the House, the making of regulations and, perhaps, even the nature of regulations. It is not the way to reform the conventions of this House at the final stages of a complex, much improved Bill, in response to the failure of an earlier vote. I know the noble Lord is not revisiting that, and that what he wants is to give this House a voice at all costs. I am afraid that I cannot accept the amendment.
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- Lord Jenkin of RodingConservative
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- My Lords, that is a deeply disappointing speech. Perhaps I must remind the Minister of the words that I used in moving this amendment: of course that vote must be respected, and I accept that it will be for another place only formally to approve the many regulations. The noble Baroness began by saying that we were trying to reverse last week’s vote. That is absolutely not true. We are now asking for a say in what happens here, that is recognised in the legislation. If the Minister does not like the procedure which I have set up, it is open to the Government to come forward with some other way in which this House could have a say. They can only do that if we send this amendment back to the other place. I wish to test the opinion of the House.
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- Baroness AndrewsLabour
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- moved Amendment No. 30:
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- Baroness AndrewsLabour
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- moved Amendment No. 31:
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- Baroness AndrewsLabour
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- My Lords, before I move that the Bill do now pass, I shall say a warm thank you to everybody who has improved it. I want to single out the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, who has been remarkably assiduous and has kept us on our toes. It has been the greatest pleasure to work with the Opposition on improving a Bill that we can be proud of. I thank my noble friends who have been incredibly supportive and successful. We have some ping-pong, but it will be quite restricted. Above all, I thank my officials. I have worked with many Bill teams, but this team has worked very late and very long, has risen to the challenge of an extremely technical Bill and has done a brilliant job. I also thank my private office. With that, I beg to move that the Bill do now pass. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Bill passed, and returned to the Commons with amendments.
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