Debates — Housing and Regeneration Act 2008

Report stage in the Lords

07 Jul 200850 speechesView in Hansard ↗

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Andrews)moved Amendment No. 1:
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Andrews)Labour
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moved Amendment No. 1:
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Baroness HamweeMy Lords, any new readers would be quite baffled. I must thank the noble Baroness for responding to my noble friends Lo…
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Baroness HamweeLiberal Democrat
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My Lords, any new readers would be quite baffled. I must thank the noble Baroness for responding to my noble friends Lord Greaves and Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer, who also raised points that are covered in this group of amendments. Before I ask questions on the amendments, I should like to make a general point, which I will not make again despite the considerable number of government amendments still to come. These are technical amendments. Some of them respond to what happened at the previous stage, but most are tabled in order to get the Bill right. The Bill spent a lot of time in the Commons and we spent nine days on it in Committee. We are now at the penultimate stage. I should like to make absolutely clear that I cast no blame at the door of the noble Baroness, but this possibly consolidates what I have noticed over the years; namely, that in June and July, the Government do not have the resources to deal with this sort of thing in the way that they should. There has always seemed to be a shortage of parliamentary counsel, which, no doubt, has been felt at earlier stages. It is a bit of a poor show that we get all this at this stage. I have said it now, got it off my chest and I will not say it again—well, not today. Amendment No. 69 refers to regional development agencies. The Minister has given us one example of how the provision could be used. I suspect that that example is why we have the amendment, but it is much wider than the example and I would be grateful if she could tell the House whether the Government have anything else in mind that would require an amendment of this sort. Amendment No. 79 refers to planning. As the noble Baroness said, we were concerned about that at the previous stage. I do not oppose this amendment because, although I very much oppose the Government’s planning proposals, which we will come to in the next group, we do not seek to get rid of them entirely. When I saw Amendment No. 82 I wrote, “Please translate”, which the Minister has done. I am also grateful to have had sight of the Minister’s speaking notes on these amendments, which have made life a great deal easier. Finally, Amendment No. 89, which would apply to Clause 69, states: “The Secretary of State may by order make further provision in respect of a function … (which may, in particular, include provision for the function to cease to be exercisable)”. I would be much happier if the amended clause simply stated that the Secretary of State could order a function to cease to be exercisable. That is what the Minister’s note, which was circulated to noble Lords last week, said. However, the amendment is wider and it is not clear whether the further provision referred to is yet another provision, whether it is covered by Clause 69(1), or whether something more is in mind. That is one example of a generality followed by a particularity, and it is the particularity that concerns the Government, but it is cast in a much wider context. Last week, the noble Baroness described me as cynical—inevitably, cynics like me will wonder about the wider intention.
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Lord Dixon-SmithMy Lords, in accordance with the customs of the House, I remind noble Lords of the declarations of interest I made at S…
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Lord Dixon-SmithConservative
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My Lords, in accordance with the customs of the House, I remind noble Lords of the declarations of interest I made at Second Reading. There is not much to say to this group of amendments except a general comment. The noble Baroness is correct to say that the amendments are largely technical. They indicate an increasing tendency to manage by legislation, although I am not sure that this Government are the exclusive progenitor of the practice; we all build on what our predecessors have done. The management of public bodies is more detailed and prescribed, and of course anyone working for such a body can always say, “Ah, but the law says this”. One of the side effects, of which this group is a classic example, is that the capacity for initiative is removed from people employed by something such as the Homes and Communities Agency. Increasingly, jobs in the local government sector are prescribed and defined in legislation. No doubt we have played a part in that, but it is a trend that we need to worry about. Jobs in the public service will become increasingly less worth doing and satisfying as the result of fewer opportunities for people to do things that really can help their communities because the law does not permit them and they dare not do anything without that permission.
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Baroness AndrewsMy Lords, what can I say to the noble Baroness except that it is a fair cop? I would have much preferred not to have ha…
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Baroness AndrewsLabour
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My Lords, what can I say to the noble Baroness except that it is a fair cop? I would have much preferred not to have had to bring back so many technical amendments, but it is extremely important to get a Bill of this size and complexity right. I also address those remarks to the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith. A great weight of responsibility will rest on the agency with its enormous funding powers and ability to take action, so I am grateful to noble Lords for helping to achieve that accuracy. Where possible I have made my speaking notes available to noble Lords opposite because it is a fair way to proceed when technical amendments are brought forward late. It is quite right and proper that they should form part of our scrutiny. The noble Baroness put two questions to me. The Bill refers to all regional development agencies, but she has spotted that when we talked about the ASC we were just talking about the transfer from the Yorkshire and Humberside RDA, Yorkshire Forward—the grandfather body, as it were. The need to refer to all RDAs rather than just specify that one is, I understand, to avoid a hybrid Bill procedure and provide flexibility should transfers of property or other assets be required in the future. We have no plans to do that, but wish to ensure the necessary flexibility. I cannot add much to that explanation when we come to government Amendment No. 89. We are advised that flexibility is important here but, similarly, we have no plans to make use of it. On Question, amendment agreed to.
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Baroness Hamweemoved Amendment No. 2:
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Baroness HamweeLiberal Democrat
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moved Amendment No. 2:
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Lord Dixon-SmithMy Lords, Amendments Nos. 4 and 15 in my name are also in this group. I find myself at something of a procedural disadv…
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Lord Dixon-SmithConservative
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My Lords, Amendments Nos. 4 and 15 in my name are also in this group. I find myself at something of a procedural disadvantage. Under Report stage rules, I have no right to sum up at the end of the debate on this group. That might mean that then I have some difficulty, depending on what the Minister has said. I make that observation now because it also will depend on what the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, has to say at the end. The Homes and Communities Agency is not a body to which we object in principle. As the Minister has explained, it is an amalgamation of the Housing Corporation and English Partnerships. Of course, the nigger in the woodpile, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, has already pointed out, is that it still incorporates what I call the hangover of the new towns legislation. If it were not for that, we would have little difficulty with the foundation of this agency. However, the historical hangover of those planning powers in this age of participation and consultation where everyone works together is a considerable anachronism and I do not like it.
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Lord Brooke of Sutton MandevilleMy Lords, before my noble friend sits down, he used a phrase about a woodpile. If your Lordships’ House were happy, I t…
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Lord Brooke of Sutton MandevilleConservative
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My Lords, before my noble friend sits down, he used a phrase about a woodpile. If your Lordships’ House were happy, I think it would perhaps be helpful if the wording of the phrase were revised.
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Lord Dixon-SmithI apologise, my Lords; I left my brains behind. I apologise to the House.
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Lord Dixon-SmithConservative
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I apologise, my Lords; I left my brains behind. I apologise to the House.
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Baroness WhitakerMy Lords, in welcoming my noble friend’s amendments, I would like to ask her two questions. Could I first say that I ha…
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Baroness WhitakerLabour
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My Lords, in welcoming my noble friend’s amendments, I would like to ask her two questions. Could I first say that I have considerable sympathy with Amendment No. 9, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, to create more of a centre of excellence in planning and design skills? I look forward to my noble friend's comments on that proposal. In fact, my question bears on the same point. On my noble friend's Amendment No. 20, I would like to ask her whether the words, “the effectiveness with which the functions of the local planning authority” include good design—the local planning authority’s responsibility to ensure that the design is up to standard. Does “matters relevant to functions” in subsection (4)(b) of the new clause of her Amendment No. 34 again refer to the importance of good, high quality design?
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Viscount EcclesMy Lords, I support the amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and my noble friend Lord Dixon-Smith. It is impo…
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Viscount EcclesConservative
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My Lords, I support the amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and my noble friend Lord Dixon-Smith. It is impossible to believe that social housing will appear in suitable quantity unless there is close co-operation. Any powers that put the HCA in the driving seat will therefore arouse resentment and will not be welcomed. During the passage of the Bill, I have not yet heard any evidence that anybody wants the HCA to, as they might express it, usurp the planning powers of any local authority. If you look at the market share of the HCA, its power rests on people knowing that it has money in its pocket; they go looking for that money to support an area of housing in which there is comparative market failure. However, that is only a relatively small proportion of the total housing market and of all matters that come before planning authorities. If the Government set up an agency over which they have, by virtue of the Bill’s language, close control, and use it to do things which will not be welcome to local authorities, whichever way you look at it the proceedings will fail. The intent of the Bill will not be met. The pledges and promises about the number of houses that we can expect over the next few years will not be fulfilled and there will be no improvement in the situation. I strongly believe that these overriding powers should not be in the Bill.
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Baroness FordMy Lords, I am afraid that I cannot support the noble Baroness’s amendment nor those of the noble Lord, although I arti…
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Baroness FordCrossbench
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My Lords, I am afraid that I cannot support the noble Baroness’s amendment nor those of the noble Lord, although I articulated some sympathy with their sentiments in Committee. I have two or three important points to make. In the valuable debate we had in Committee, we all understood how strongly views were held on planning powers. I say to the noble Viscount that some evidence suggests that these planning powers have been used entirely benignly and in a positive way over the past five years. It is useful to remember that we are not putting in the Bill the kind of culture, organisation and wide, sweeping powers that we saw in the New Towns Act 1946. We do the Minister’s hard work and her amendments a disservice if we suggest that the HCA’s planning powers would be used in that way. I remind noble Lords of the example that I used in Committee, when I explained that English Partnerships has had these powers throughout its existence. We no longer look to the old model of new towns or other urban development corporations, where an organisation was set up entirely detached from local democracy and local authorities. Rather, we should look to delivery vehicles set up in the past five years, such as the Milton Keynes Partnership—with a progressive, intelligent, local authority—which has been a joint venture between local authority members, English Partnership board members and members of the local community, who now comprise the local planning authority. That authority has an independent chair, a person with a strong Milton Keynes track record. Evidence for this can be found in the amount of high quality development infrastructure that has been delivered in Milton Keynes compared to the rather arid scene of 10 years earlier.
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Baroness AndrewsMy Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who tabled these amendments. This has been an excellent debate, as it was in…
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Baroness AndrewsLabour
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My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who tabled these amendments. This has been an excellent debate, as it was in Committee. Although we consider that these amendments are not necessary, that does not mean that they are not important in prompting debate and enabling us to reconsider our response. I am also grateful for the contribution of my noble friend Lady Ford, who speaks with such clarity and authority; there is no substitute for practical experience. Although I shall do my best to persuade the House that we have responded to concerns with integrity and care—I accept that there are deep concerns about this issue—the fact that my noble friend was able to explain the circumstances under which exceptional powers are used in partnership was extremely helpful to everyone. The noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, also commented on the matter. What we want the HCA to achieve—this is certainly true of the chief executive, Sir Bob Kerslake—could not be realised unless the entire organisation was completely committed to partnership with the agencies, especially local authorities, which will build the houses. The HCA’s task is to ensure that all parts of the complex system for planning, regeneration and housebuilding work in harmony and to the best effect. That is what we want the HCA to achieve. Therefore, I completely concur with everything that noble Lords have said across this range of amendments about the need for partnership and a close working relationship. As Bob Kerslake says, the HCA will be the best and closest partner for local authorities. I hope that I will exemplify that in my response to these amendments. I completely understand the intention behind Amendment No. 2, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee. However, I cannot accept it because it would be too restrictive. Where the Secretary of State uses her powers to designate an area and confer planning functions on the HCA, the amendment would require it to exercise those functions by means of a committee. It specifies that the committee should meet in the local area within which any designated land lies. The noble Baroness spoke eloquently about the need to work closely with and listen to the local community, a matter that I shall return to when I discuss my amendments. We believe that this amendment is too restrictive. The amendments that I will bring forward in respect of Clauses 13 and 14 provide that the HCA may set up a committee or sub-committee for the purpose of exercising planning functions, which would be a likely option. If it does so, it must inform every local authority for the designated area and invite them to suggest one or more candidates for membership of such a committee. However, I do not think that that is the only possibility or that we should stipulate in the Bill that it would be the only possibility for exercising functions. The noble Baroness and I agree that it is important that the HCA, when acting as the local planning authority for a designated area, should be properly accountable to those living in and around that area. One way in which that might be achieved would be if the HCA exercised planning functions in meetings that were open to the public. When we come to the noble Baroness’s amendment that deals with that point, in relation to Schedule 8, I will undertake to consider it. I am happy to help that amendment along. However, this amendment would restrict the ability of the HCA to exercise its functions as it sees fit. Amendment No. 4, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, relates to working through the planning system. The noble Lord was eloquent in his concern and his conviction that the HCA will work only if it is within the planning system. He is right about that. We support everything that he says. In his attempt to ensure that the HCA works in partnership, he uses the term “co-operating”. The language does not matter so much as the intent and what is to be achieved. His amendment refers to co-operating with local authorities and any other body involved in any activities related to its objects. He argued that, without express provision that the HCA must work through the planning system, it could be used to circumvent the system and local opinion to drive through unwanted development that is not in accordance with the development plan. He also argued that, without a requirement in the Bill compelling the HCA to co-operate with local authorities and other groups already working towards the achievement of its objects, the agency will be a top-down leviathan with no knowledge of or sensitivity to local concerns. I cannot agree. There are a number of ways of interpreting the difference between co-operation and partnership. Co-operation is a slightly lower test than partnership, but the effect would be the same. It is simply not the case that the Bill as drafted in any way enables the HCA to circumvent any part of the planning system. Even in the unlikely event that the Secretary of State designates an area and confers responsibility for preparing and maintaining all or part of the local development framework for the designated area on the HCA, that in no way exempts the HCA from having to go through the same process as any other local planning authority to amend the plans for the area, including consultation and examination in public. If it is involved with a development that requires planning permission, that must be applied for and obtained in the normal fashion. There are no short cuts for the HCA. I take the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, that this is a major undertaking. These plans are complex to make and amend. They will not be undertaken lightly. Nothing in the Bill in any way exempts the agency from abiding by the laws of the land, including on the development and use of land. As for the HCA being centrally driven, it will work with local communities to determine the best way of delivering national objects locally. We have included the HCA as a body that will be a statutory partner authority for the local area agreement and local improvement targets. The agency will support local partners to deliver the new homes and regeneration projects that their communities need, which will have been identified at a local level. The agency will be working closely with local authorities and regional partners to identify the best way of delivering their priorities. The remainder of what I want to say about how this will work is best left until I address my amendments, because that will pick up the argument. If the noble Lord will forgive me, I will leave his amendment there. Amendment No. 9, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, is about the support that the HCA may provide to local planning authorities. The debate on that was quite lively. I am happy to give an assurance that the HCA will indeed share its planning knowledge and expertise with local planning authorities. I have said at different stages of the Bill that it is very much our intention that the HCA should become a one-stop shop for local partners who need to seek advice, guidance, skills or funding support. We have made provision for that in the Bill. For example, Clause 22 provides that the HCA may, with the consent of the Secretary of State, give financial assistance to any person. Clauses 41 to 43 and 47 empower the HCA to provide information services, advice, education, training, guidance and support services to those who need them, within its objects. To pick up the noble Baroness’s language, the HCA will indeed be a centre of excellence and will put its expertise at the disposal of local authorities. It is worth highlighting the excellent work of the existing organisations that will make up the agency. They are already working to provide support and improve knowledge and skills. For example, the Advisory Team for Large Applications, ATLAS, provides an independent advisory service to local planning authorities. It works with local authorities and the private sector to deliver large-scale development. ATLAS is sponsored by my department and is hosted by English Partnerships, as part of the Planning Advisory Service. As my noble friend said, that service already does an excellent job in assisting planning authorities in practical ways. However, these services should not be restricted to planning authorities. The Housing Corporation’s good practice programme aims to encourage the development and testing of new ideas to generate and promote good practice in the delivery of social housing. Within the centre of excellence is another resource of which I have great expectations: the Academy of Sustainable Communities. The academy has, for two or three years now, been applying itself to raising the skills and expectations of building communities, in terms not just of physical infrastructure but of what is needed in the social infrastructure of communities. The academy aims to inspire, motivate and influence people across many sectors to create sustainable communities. For example, its first priority was to work with schools. It works with people with leadership roles in the communities and with professionals. It will be a source of growing more planners. The academy is an exciting and innovative group of people. The HCA will be enriched, and it will enrich and expand its work, because of that. These are some of the tools currently at our disposal. I hope that they demonstrate our intentions for how the HCA will work to improve places and to grow the skills that we need. Amendments Nos. 16, 21, 27, 35 to 38, 80, 81, 83, 85 and 192 are a group of miscellaneous government amendments. This is a sort of trailer for the more important amendments that I shall address in a minute. All these amendments are related and go some way towards responding to points raised by noble Lords in Grand Committee. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, specifically asked for these amendments to be made. I gave him an undertaking to consider these clauses further, to determine whether they were necessary to the success of the HCA’s operations and to return to them on Report. It was a useful exercise because, after consideration, we decided that the clauses were not needed and, therefore, we now seek to remove them from the Bill.
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Baroness HamweeMy Lords, I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have shown such perception and care about these provisions. If nobl…
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Baroness HamweeLiberal Democrat
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My Lords, I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have shown such perception and care about these provisions. If noble Lords will bear with me, I shall deal with a few points in the order of my notes rather than the order of importance. On Amendment No. 9, clearly I did not make myself clear enough to the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith. I am seeking to keep people as consultants in the public sector, not to the use the HCA as a training ground. I do not intend to push this matter further. I also am very grateful to the noble Viscount. To the noble Baroness, Lady Ford, I say that I do not dispute that there could be benign intent. Noble Lords in this Chamber are angels, but I cannot think of an amendment which says that this will apply only when everyone’s intentions are benign. The Milton Keynes example has been prayed in aid frequently because it is the only example available, but it is not one that can be applied directly to all the circumstances. It was a partnership which the local authority was happy to join; it was not an imposition and, indeed, it was an exception. Moreover, I think that my amendments are consistent with the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Ford, even though she said that she did not agree with them. On Amendment No. 4, I understand why the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, would like to see these important notions spelt out, but they are more about the how than the what, and this clause is about the what. The noble Lord, Lord Rooker, once paid me the compliment of saying that I was not a lawyer—he meant that I was not a barrister—but I have a lawyer’s mind, which sees things progressing in sequence in the way described by the Minister. This amendment talks about the HCA working “through the planning system”, but we could not have had more assurances that that is the case. I liked the Minister’s comment that co-operation is of a lesser order than partnership. I am a little embarrassed and I am not arguing against the noble Lord, but I think his concerns are addressed. I do not want to take too much time. I agree that the protocol with the local government world through the LGA is important, but it does not address the basic premise of whether it is right philosophically for an agency to take these planning powers. The comment that, in the past, urban development corporations have had difficulties when plans are not up to the mark should be answered by the HCA’s ability, along with everyone else, to make representations during the construction of development plans and their modifications. The noble Baroness has offered to consider so many of my amendments that it would not be appropriate for me to seek to take them further today. Although time is quite short, I hope that there will be an opportunity for us to discuss what the Government might bring forward, and I do not give any undertakings about not dividing the House in a week’s time. A discussion about how we take these notions forward could cover one or two of the points that at this stage the noble Baroness has rejected. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
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Baroness Andrewsmoved Amendment No. 3:
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Baroness AndrewsLabour
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moved Amendment No. 3:
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Lord Dixon-Smithmoved Amendment No. 5:
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Lord Dixon-SmithConservative
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moved Amendment No. 5:
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Lord Howarth of NewportMy Lords, I have a great deal of sympathy with the spirit of the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith,…
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Lord Howarth of NewportLabour
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My Lords, I have a great deal of sympathy with the spirit of the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, and the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart. At Second Reading, I drew attention—at col. 83 of Hansard on 28 April—to some highlights of briefing that had been provided to certainly a number of us and perhaps to all of us by RADAR, Care and Repair England and the Habinteg Housing Association pointing out some pretty shameful facts about the inaccessibility of so much housing and the entirely unsatisfactory conditions in which too many disabled people are still expected to live. I know that the Government are very serious in their intentions to do very much better in this regard. They have, of course, made their commitment that by 2011 all public housing will be built to lifetime home standards. I hope that my noble friend may be able to say something about the Government’s intentions in regard to other housing—not public housing but housing that is provided privately on the commercial market, although that may be outside the direct remit of the Homes and Communities Agency and this Bill. If she did say something, the House would appreciate that. She may also reasonably say—I do not know—that disability discrimination legislation will enable us cumulatively to make an impact on this problem. As the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, suggested, accessibility is a very important subset of the broader principle of good design, which we are about to debate. I endorse the spirit in which the noble Lord has tabled and moved the amendment. I look forward to a constructive response from the Minister.
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Lord BestMy Lords, I also support the amendment. I was not sure how important it was until I had lunch earlier today with people…
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Lord BestCrossbench
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My Lords, I also support the amendment. I was not sure how important it was until I had lunch earlier today with people from the housebuilding industry. Some of them said that, in these straitened times, when several housebuilders are going to the wall and difficulties prevail, we will have to rein in some of the regulation that has cluttered the housing system. In particular, they drew attention to the fact that the accessibility standards of lifetime homes were being imposed upon new buildings. I had not quite appreciated that the Homes and Communities Agency may find itself under pressure, if not to renege on the progress we have made so far, not to make rapid progress to the final stages of incorporating all the lifetime home standards into new developments. This sent a shudder through me. Accessibility is a key issue. We must make all homes in the future accessible not only to people with disabilities but to all kinds of families in all stages of life. Making the home an easier place to live in is a key part of design which adds little to the cost of each home, although it does add something. This essential ingredient could now be jeopardised by the straitened times in which the house-building industry finds itself. Strengthening the arm of the Homes and Communities Agency to resist any diminution in the existing strength of feeling for greater accessibility would be of great significance. Suddenly I have realised the importance of the amendment and I give it my heartiest support.
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Baroness HamweeMy Lords, I associate these Benches with all the previous remarks. I hope the Minister will assure the House that her A…
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Baroness HamweeLiberal Democrat
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My Lords, I associate these Benches with all the previous remarks. I hope the Minister will assure the House that her Amendment No. 7, which adds the objective of good design, not only covers aesthetics, which are very important, but extends to all the other elements of design, including accessibility.
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Baroness AndrewsMy Lords, it is obvious that the House is united in the view that this is an issue of serious importance. It is certain…
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Baroness AndrewsLabour
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My Lords, it is obvious that the House is united in the view that this is an issue of serious importance. It is certainly close to my heart. I argued in Committee that we have an ageing population. By definition, that means that we will have more people living longer with greater disabilities and we have to accommodate and plan for that in the most positive and proactive way. Two of the ways in which we conceive the HCA working will address this issue. First, the HCA already has the object to improve the supply and quality of housing in England with a view to meeting the needs of people living in England. It could not be much clearer than that. It certainly goes wide enough to account for issues of accessibility. How can we interpret the notion of need unless we think about people whose needs are different and have to be met? Secondly, design includes matters such as accessibility. One of my particular preoccupations has been that we tend to think of accessible housing and housing for disabled people as having no design function, whereas we should be piloting the highest standards of design for people who have difficulty in accessing their homes, furniture and so on. So, yes, design includes accessibility. The HCA will be focused on ensuring that the various needs of a diverse community are catered for by providing housing of different tenors and types, now and in the future. That means more accessible housing and more family housing; it means sustainable housing. Another thing about the way the HCA will work is that, like the Housing Corporation, it will respond to what local authorities tell it are their local needs. We have a cross-government public service agreement, which identifies four vulnerable groups in the community who have particular needs, not least for accommodation. One of those groups is people with learning difficulties; another is care leavers. We are looking to ensure that the Housing Corporation and the HCA, when it makes its allocations in discussion with local authorities, are well aware of the needs of these groups of vulnerable people. We have ways and means of meeting needs, but I understand what the noble Lord has said. I am reluctant to single out a strand of housing that would entail a specific object being placed on the agency, no matter how much we all think it is important; it is not entirely wise to emphasise one particular type of housing in primary legislation. The Bill is trying to enable the HCA to meet all its challenges with sufficient flexibility. The noble Lord, Lord Best, has raised the issue of lifetime homes. He knows how committed he and I are to making that a reality in the timescales that we have given. We have made a commitment that by 2011 all public sector-funded homes will be developed as lifetime homes, and we will work with the industry to ensure that all homes are built to that standard by 2013. I know that the housing market is in difficult times. Frankly, though, one of the arguments I would put to the housebuilders is that there is a market for homes for elderly people, who have proportionally far more wealth than they have had before, with the equity in their existing homes, but who do not move home because choices are not available to them. I say to those housebuilders: think about that market, and about the social homes you could build that would appeal to people who at the moment are stuck in larger, inappropriate houses. I do not buy the argument that this is not an economic benefit to housebuilders themselves. Having said that, I will take the argument away and think some more about it. I cannot promise to come back with a solution at Third Reading, but I have heard what the House has said. I will think about whether there is some way that we can accommodate the principle. I cannot say the same for inclusive housing, I am afraid, because it raises other major issues—not least that the HCA will simply not be doing its job if it is not conscious of the need to build inclusive communities, and that means communities that work. Communities work only if they offer a home and an environment to people who have a diverse variety of needs, such as we all know our society contains. It will be a requirement upon the HCA to succeed in doing that, and it will work closely with local authorities to achieve it. We all want to see confident and cohesive communities. The HCA will be subject to appropriate equality duties as well, and it will have to comply with the DDA. The other problem I have with the term “inclusive” is that it can mean a lot of very different things. It would be a challenge, to say the least, to arrive at a definition that satisfied everyone. I hope that noble Lords will accept that I am doing my best and listening closely to what they are saying about accessible homes, but I cannot promise to take the “inclusive” amendment away.
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Lord Howarth of NewportMy Lords, I appreciate what my noble friend has just said, but she placed her emphasis on the Government’s intentions w…
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Lord Howarth of NewportLabour
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My Lords, I appreciate what my noble friend has just said, but she placed her emphasis on the Government’s intentions with regard to the provision of new housing. Will she say a little more about the Government’s thinking about the upgrading of existing homes? I understand that when the Government have fulfilled their pledge of increasing disabled facilities grants by 31 per cent, they will still be spending only £166 million on those grants. That does not take us very far, given the scale of the problem—particularly if, as I understand it, the concomitant duty on local authorities to provide funding is to be relaxed. The HCA will have important responsibilities with regard to regeneration, and perhaps therefore to the upgrading of existing houses. Will the Minister say what powers and resources it will be able to use for that purpose?
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Lord Bassam of BrightonMy Lords, I do not like to interrupt noble Lords when they are in full flow, but I ought to draw attention to paragraph…
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Lord Bassam of BrightonLabour
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My Lords, I do not like to interrupt noble Lords when they are in full flow, but I ought to draw attention to paragraph 7.134 of the Companion, which governs how we respond on Report. We should not really make further interventions once the Minister has sat down. Questions should be asked only for elucidation.
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Baroness AndrewsMy Lords, I am very happy to write to my noble friend and will certainly answer his questions with pleasure.
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Baroness AndrewsLabour
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My Lords, I am very happy to write to my noble friend and will certainly answer his questions with pleasure.
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Lord Dixon-SmithMy Lords, I was very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, when he first intervened; the second time, I regret to s…
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Lord Dixon-SmithConservative
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My Lords, I was very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, when he first intervened; the second time, I regret to say that it caused my eyebrows to twitch. Anyway, it was good to have his support and to know that we also have the support of RADAR. I was very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Best, for his remarks on lifetime homes, particularly regarding the immediate pressure which appears to be coming from the industry to relax our standards for what is, as I think we all hope and pray, no more than a relatively short-term difficulty. I am sure we would all agree that, however long this problem in the housing market lasts, it will be too long. Even if it goes on longer than any of us would like, I see no reason why we should not continue to aim to set very high standards, particularly in this area. As the Minister said, so many people now live in a handicapped way in homes that are simply unsuitable because there is no way for them to go anywhere else. I am aware that lifetime homes will be taken care of, when it comes to building new homes, in a relatively short timescale. But if we do not keep this in our mind whenever renovations and redevelopment of existing housing are undertaken, we will miss a golden opportunity and might inadvertently condemn some people to problems which they would rather avoid. After all, it is not a question of making every door in a house wheelchair-accessible, but of making the house and perhaps the ground floor wheelchair-accessible, if not upstairs. This is not an unreasonable ambition. I am most grateful to the Minister for what she had to say. I accept the problem of emphasising only one aspect, but if you do not continue to mention the smaller aspects, it is all too easy to neglect them. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say if she writes to me. For now, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendment No. 6 not moved.]
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Baroness Andrewsmoved Amendment No. 7:
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Baroness AndrewsLabour
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moved Amendment No. 7:
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Lord Howarth of NewportMy Lords, what can I say? What can we all say to my noble friend but “Thank you”? She is adding to the objects of the H…
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Lord Howarth of NewportLabour
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My Lords, what can I say? What can we all say to my noble friend but “Thank you”? She is adding to the objects of the HCA an explicit object that it shall contribute to the achievement of good design in England. She accepted the essential spirit and purpose of a number of amendments that we debated in Grand Committee. It was important that there was all-party support for the spirit and purpose of those amendments. I particularly appreciate the support of my noble friend Lady Whitaker. She is, by herself, worth an army. This is a civilised and proper thing that the Government are doing, which will improve the quality of life in this country. I absolutely accept what my noble friend just said—that it is greatly preferable that this duty and the benefits that will flow from it should not be confined to housing and individual buildings but cover development, which the HCA is able to influence more broadly, so that the spaces between and around buildings will be of better design, the infrastructure that we develop will be better designed and the whole process of regeneration will be characterised by a commitment to good design. It may be a statement of the obvious that we ought to be committed to good design, but by writing it explicitly into the legislation, we have very valuably gone beyond the relatively vague and generalised terms that were already in the Bill such as quality and well-being. That there will be a statutory duty for the HCA to promote good design will make all the difference. Amid the welter of other duties and pressures that will be on the HCA, design might have fallen by the wayside. Indeed, notwithstanding the positive commitment and substantial achievements of the Housing Corporation and English Partnerships in relation to design in recent years, there is a longer melancholy history of a failure to pay sufficient attention to good design. The HCA will now have fully to heed best practice, the best advice that it can obtain from CABE, the professional institutes, academia and the best practitioners, and from the DCLG itself. The key, as we noted in Grand Committee—the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, made this point powerfully—is that there should be an understanding of the nature of good design and a commitment to it deeply imbued in the institutional culture of the HCA. I still think that it would be no bad thing if one of the members of the board of the HCA had experience and capacity in design matters. However, what will matter infinitely more is the leadership given to the HCA by its chief executive, Sir Bob Kerslake. There is every indication that he will personally take this responsibility very seriously indeed, and I look forward to the newly appointed chair, Robert Napier, doing likewise. I have a handful of questions to ask my noble friend. If she cannot answer them today perhaps she will write to us before Third Reading. What means does the department expect the HCA actually to use to promote good design, and what will the department itself be doing alongside to support the normalisation of good design and to create a supportive context? What will the department's wider strategy be? We know and welcome very much that the Secretary of State, Hazel Blears, has told CABE that she wants people to live in beautiful homes, but I emphasise, as my noble friend just did, that design goes well beyond questions of aesthetics. We are not looking to the DCLG, and certainly not to the HCA, to be a kind of central taste police. There are many matters other than aesthetics entailed in good design. We talked just in the last debate about the importance of lifetime homes, accessibility and adaptability. There is also the requirement that new homes and new buildings should be carbon-neutral in a certain space of time. There is also much experience with such familiar concepts as designing out crime and ensuring that provision of transport services and facilities does not dehumanise communities. I have some specific questions for my noble friend. Do the Government intend to introduce minimum space standards? If they themselves do not do so, will they endorse the HCA if it introduces minimum space standards in those areas that it can control? Does she expect that the Government will make building regulations more substantial and better able themselves to promote good design, and do more to ensure that building regulations are taken seriously and are well enforced? Will the Government seek to generalise the use of the Building for Life standards? What is now the state of the Government's thinking on new design quality metrics, which were adumbrated in the Green Paper, and a possible design quality assurance scheme, which would enable developments to proceed faster if they met certain criteria of design? How does my noble friend expect CABE to relate to the HCA? It is particularly important that CABE should be able to offer its expertise and judgment because, after all, we will never achieve good design by formulaic methods or bureaucratic devices. What is the Government's thinking now on housing and planning delivery grant and whether it should reward quality as well as quantity in the provision of new homes? Do the Government intend energetically to use their influence to ensure that design review facilities and pre-application discussion are available appropriately throughout the country and, at the other end of the process—this was the subject of an amendment that we debated in Committee—will the Government encourage the HCA itself to use “post-occupancy analysis”? That rather forbidding jargon term actually means asking people who will live in these homes whether they consider that their homes are well designed. What do the Government intend to do about education and training? Will they work with the Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills and with the Higher Education Funding Council for England as well as with those in RIBA, in the RTPI and in the Urban Design Alliance who are seeking to develop a common foundation curriculum for students who are going to become architects, surveyors, planners, highway engineers and landscape designers, so that all of them should be educated in good design and should at least speak a common language and understand each other? I remind the House of my declaration of interest as an honorary fellow of RIBA. My noble friend spoke very helpfully just now about the Academy for Sustainable Communities and the work that it is expected to do to remedy the deficiencies of skills. She has told us, in one of the helpful pieces of correspondence which she sent to Members of the Committee, about the funding that will be available for the Academy for Sustainable Communities from 2008-09 to 2010-11. It would certainly be helpful if she could say rather more about the expectations that the Government have of the academy. Does my noble friend expect the Homes and Communities Agency to report in its annual report on what it has done in the previous year and what it plans to do in the following year in fulfilment of its statutory object to contribute to the achievement of good design in England? How will the DCLG monitor the overall performance of the HCA in regard to its design responsibilities, in a sensible relationship of course, without breathing down its neck and second-guessing it all the time? How will it satisfy itself that the HCA will fulfil our best hopes for design? We can shortly return to some of these themes and issues in the Planning Bill. Meanwhile, I welcome the amendment. It will lead to better design, directly in social housing and more indirectly through the HCA’s influence on the volume housebuilders, where it is assembling land and is a key player in regeneration. Not only homes but all sorts of buildings will be better designed on land that the HCA makes available. The amendment means that the lives of many people will be improved in the years ahead.
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Baroness WhitakerMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for his kind words; I agree with everything else that he said. I also congratulate th…
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Baroness WhitakerLabour
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My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his kind words; I agree with everything else that he said. I also congratulate the Minister on her imaginative response to our debates on design. All our communities will be the better for it.
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Baroness FordMy Lords, I, too, welcome the amendment. I take slight issue with one aspect of what my noble friend Lord Howarth said.…
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Baroness FordCrossbench
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My Lords, I, too, welcome the amendment. I take slight issue with one aspect of what my noble friend Lord Howarth said. He listed a whole range of organisations on whose advice the Homes and Communities Agency should rely: CABE, the professions and so on. Later, he mentioned “post-occupancy analysis”. I have no idea what that is, but I suspect that it is a question of asking people what is wrong with new developments after they are in them; they will be quick to tell you. In supporting the amendment, I say to the noble Lord that I hope that the Homes and Communities Agency talks to real people from time to time, before it listens to architects and a whole range of other professionals who, although no doubt well intentioned, do not always get it right. We do not have to look much further than the current arguments around Robin Hood Gardens in London, where almost every eminent architect has rolled up to say what a marvellous place it is, and, almost without exception, every resident has said that it is a living hell. In not being too unkind to the professions, I gently suggest—no, I insist—that we tell the Homes and Communities Agency to listen to real people before, not after, the event.
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Viscount EcclesMy Lords, in welcoming the amendment, I put myself into the minds of the HCA management and address their need always t…
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Viscount EcclesConservative
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My Lords, in welcoming the amendment, I put myself into the minds of the HCA management and address their need always to get their priorities right, and to know what they can and cannot do. Bearing in mind that one person’s good design is another’s white elephant, it is probably quite good to be cautious. The wording of the amendment is, happily, quite cautious; if I were part of the HCA management, I could live with it. They contribute to the achievement of sustainable development and good design in England. That is a limited duty, and I would be happy to find it so were I involved in the HCA.
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Baroness AndrewsMy Lords, I am grateful for the welcome that the amendment has received. One of the first things that Sir Bob Kerslake…
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Baroness AndrewsLabour
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My Lords, I am grateful for the welcome that the amendment has received. One of the first things that Sir Bob Kerslake should do when setting up the committee, or Joint Committee—perhaps with CABE—is to read your Lordships’ debate. He will find an agenda for his first meeting and some important principles for how he and the agency should best proceed to make a success of this challenging new agenda. It is a new agenda: it is the first time that we have ever required a public agency to address design issues in this way. That is important and quite radical. The HCA is a new organisation. I cannot second-guess how it will work, nor would I want to. I can only pledge that it will work as closely as possible with CLG and CABE. We look forward to the inspiration that it will offer the department in raising our own already high standards in the attention and priority we give design in all our work, whether it is new build, new development or regeneration. If the noble Lord will forgive me, I will not answer his detailed questions this evening, although I could. It would be better to write to him and set out the full responses his questions deserve. They are complex, and cross more than just my department; for example, on education and training. I hope that the noble Lord will forgive me, but I assure him that yet another letter is coming his way. On Question, amendment agreed to.
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Earl Cathcartmoved Amendment No. 8:
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Earl CathcartConservative
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moved Amendment No. 8:
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Lord Graham of EdmontonMy Lords, I have great sympathy for the case that was so ably made in Committee and this evening. I do not think anyone…
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Lord Graham of EdmontonLabour
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My Lords, I have great sympathy for the case that was so ably made in Committee and this evening. I do not think anyone disputes that there is an urgent need to provide more affordable urban housing. The case can also be made that there is an urgent need to provide affordable housing in non-urban communities. The stance you adopt on the issue depends on your background, where you live and the area that you have represented as a politician. Many areas in my former constituency and on Tyneside, where I was born, could also make out a very good case for special treatment. The Government’s response to the amendment in Committee was sympathetic and I have no doubt that it will be reiterated tonight. They said that the body that will have responsibility for this matter will be best able to judge the appropriate balance in this regard. The noble Earl properly made the case for the housing needs of rural communities to be taken into account. However, he ought to ask himself why they appear to have greater needs than urban areas in that regard. It is a sad fact that much of the housing that was provided by previous Labour and Conservative Governments and by Labour and Conservative county councils was sold off to people who were desperate for housing. The building of affordable council housing in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s was the salvation of those people. They were grateful for the opportunity to live in that housing as they were able to rent affordable homes in nice areas. However, they were especially grateful to the Government who at the end of the 1970s and the beginning of the 1980s gave them the right to buy. Initially, I did not think much of people who, having been grateful to local and national government for providing them with a council house, then bought that home. However, I realised that it was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for many people to buy a house. They took that opportunity and repaid those who gave them the right to buy by supporting them politically. However, 30 years later there is a price to be paid in rural and urban areas for allowing that housing to be bought. The Minister and her colleagues will have to try to repair the damage caused to affordable housing, which was dealt that body blow some 30 years ago. I sympathise with those who live in rural areas and have difficulty finding homes, but it is a matter of joining the queue in this regard. There are such queues all over the place, although not where I live in Loughton—the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, knows Loughton better than me—which is a salubrious, well-heeled area. It has council housing, although I have not traced which Government were responsible for providing it. There is affordable housing all over the place. Having been the chairman of a housing committee, I know that trying to ensure that the housing that is available goes to those who need it is a thankless task. I anticipate that the Minister will say that the HCA will be the best body to judge this matter, bearing in mind its responsibility to treat fairly all those who need homes. I would not complain if it decided that most of the housing should be built in rural areas, as that would mean housing would be provided in the places where it considered there was greatest need, and that is where it should be provided. I congratulate the noble Earl on his compassion in raising this issue. However, I believe that we should not include a specific provision in the Bill but rather should trust the highly qualified people who will be appointed—none of whom I know, of course—to provide housing for all those in need wherever they may live.
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Lord HyltonMy Lords, I have lived and worked in rural areas for well over 50 years and have spoken about rural housing and asked Q…
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Lord HyltonCrossbench
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My Lords, I have lived and worked in rural areas for well over 50 years and have spoken about rural housing and asked Questions in your Lordships' House on a good many occasions. I initiated a debate on the Duke of Edinburgh’s special inquiry committee into rural housing quite a number of years ago. I therefore strongly welcome this amendment, and I am delighted that its wording contains a reference to balance between rural and urban areas. I ask the Government to look at it extremely carefully. I do not think it is sufficient just to rely on trust. All government policies are supposed to be rural-proofed, and this is an area where that is particularly needed.
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Viscount EcclesMy Lords, I draw noble Lords’ attention to another point. We are in discussions about eco-towns. It is not always right…
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Viscount EcclesConservative
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My Lords, I draw noble Lords’ attention to another point. We are in discussions about eco-towns. It is not always right to think in terms of houses going where people need them. It is sometimes difficult to find places and opportunities to build houses where people need them immediately, but that does not go against the provision of more affordable housing because nowadays people move about. If there are better opportunities to provide the houses in places where people do not yet live, those houses will be best provided. I am sure that one aspect of what will happen in the market is that people will move to the houses because they will find good reasons to live somewhere other than where they started. In our society as a whole, the number of people who live in a different place from where they started is rising every year.
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Lord BestMy Lords, I support the amendment tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart. It is great to have another champion of rura…
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Lord BestCrossbench
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My Lords, I support the amendment tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart. It is great to have another champion of rural housing in your Lordships' House alongside the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, who has been a champion of rural housing for all these years. I should know because I was secretary to the Duke of Edinburgh’s inquiry in 1976, which reported on this matter. The noble Lord spoke shortly after we reported on that issue. Why should rural housing get a special mention in the duties placed upon the HCA? For the past 34 years, not least from your Lordships' House but from other quarters as well, the Housing Corporation has been constantly reminded that this small corner of the total housing picture deserves some special, extra attention. The noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, made the important point that the right to buy has had a special influence in rural areas. People have bought their homes in rural areas to a greater degree than in urban areas. I could take noble Lords to a very pleasant village in Dorset that had 17 council houses on its edge. They have all now been sold and there are no social housing homes in that village. The right to buy can wipe out all the social housing in certain places. The constant reminder to the HCA that this is a part of the scene that needs a bit of attention is important. The new agency brings together the powerful English Partnerships and the extra powers from the Department for Communities and Local Government, almost all of which concern urban issues; for example, the Thames Gateway, urban development companies, the regeneration agenda and the housing market renewal pathfinders in the north. Those are all urban issues. Rural housing has already been a difficult part of the housing scene to hang on to. There is a danger of it being watered down unless there is a reminder that it is part of the duties that the Homes and Communities Agency must take into account.
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Baroness HamweeMy Lords, I had a problem with this amendment in the previous stage because of the phrase “in particular”. I used the t…
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Baroness HamweeLiberal Democrat
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My Lords, I had a problem with this amendment in the previous stage because of the phrase “in particular”. I used the term “balance” then. I am pleased to see that that notion has been taken forward in this amendment. In Committee, I was persuaded by the descriptions given by the noble Lord, Lord Best, of the difficulties of achieving housing in rural areas. I think he mentioned Cerne Abbas then. He might have roamed around the whole of Dorset; I do not know whether it is the same Dorset village. Over the years, I have slowly been coming to the realisation that it is necessary to pay—I shall use the term—particular attention to achieving housing in rural areas because, in some ways, it is much more difficult. It is not just a question of numbers here or there. Ensuring the success of rural communities is a major objective. As the debate has gone on, that qualitative distinction of rural areas has been brought out. This is not intended as a cavil but like, I dare say, many noble Lords, I am more urban than I am rural, but I am probably suburban. That may be a bit middle-aged and boring, but an awful lot of people live in the suburbs. Many of them are pretty good places. When the noble Earl sums up, I hope he can assure me that suburban is within his term “urban”. During the previous stage, the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, said that the predecessor amendment was unnecessary, and he may be about to say something similar today, but I hope he will address whether it is wrong.
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Baroness FordMy Lords, I am not able to support the noble Earl’s amendment, but not because I do not think the spirit of what he des…
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Baroness FordCrossbench
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My Lords, I am not able to support the noble Earl’s amendment, but not because I do not think the spirit of what he described is right. We all understand that the fragility of services in rural communities has a direct relationship to the critical mass of hamlets and villages, and the inability to maintain basic services—education, local schools and so on—is critically dependant on the provision of proper housing and housing for young families. We all understand how difficult it is for young families to be able to stay near grandparents and to have the kind of social network that would come from being able to access to affordable or market housing close to where they grew up. My objection to the amendment is that, as it stands, I do not think it achieves what the noble Earl would like to do. In Committee and today, we have talked a lot about the need to respect local authorities’ say-so over the plans in their area. One of their particular responsibilities is to express the housing need in their area and the Homes and Communities Agency responds to that. That has always been the way in which the national affordable housing programme has been invested over the years. We cannot on the one hand say it is for local authorities to articulate that and for the HCA to respond and on the other hand say that the HCA is to do that. As I read the noble Earl’s amendment—and he may correct me if I am wrong—it would not achieve the intention he sets out, however much support there is for it around the House.
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Baroness Falkner of MargravineMy Lords, I support the amendment. Indeed, I had a great deal of sympathy with the similar amendment tabled in Grand Co…
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Baroness Falkner of MargravineCrossbench
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My Lords, I support the amendment. Indeed, I had a great deal of sympathy with the similar amendment tabled in Grand Committee. I will not rehearse the statistics; we heard ample statistics in Grand Committee on the extent to which rural communities have different growth trajectories for social housing and those statistics are on the record. I shall make two or three simple points on why the availability of more affordable housing in rural communities is a matter of concern and why, therefore, it should be addressed through this amendment. First, the principle is simple. There are people who either choose to live outside cities or simply cannot afford to live in cities, but that does not mean that they should not have a voice. There is the idea of being part of a community. Indeed, we now have the Department for Communities and Local Government. The idea of communities is at the heart of what this Government believe should be a tool for regeneration, for reinvigoration and for making people have shared endeavour and shared purpose. Therefore, it is extremely important that those people should have a voice, although they may well be small in number and are not for whatever reason—whether choice or affordability—part of the larger urban or suburban landscape. However, because of the unfortunate figures and the changes in trends on the amount of social housing available, those people are losing their voice. Secondly, democracy is part of the shared endeavour. The noble Baroness, Lady Ford, rightly argued that there should be local decisions and so on, but you can diminish democracy. The HCA will have considerable powers and resources. Should there be in the Bill a duty on the HCA to take account of rural communities? That democratic voice would be far more to the forefront if the amendment were made. It is as simple as that. We go for champions in other areas of life. We recognise the need for ethnic minorities and women to be represented on boards and so on. Ideally, I would have liked to see a champion, but I accept that that is not where we are. Even if we do not have a champion to speak for rural communities, the amendment would concentrate peoples’ minds, not necessarily when they are making clear-cut decisions on the allocation of resources and so on, but when they are making decisions in the grey area where there are conflicting priorities—and there are many priorities. That is when such a duty would make a difference. It would be assessable, because we would be able to see the extent to which rural aspects had been brought to the fore. Finally, on something more topical in relation to what the Prime Minister said today in Japan at the G8 summit, we are considering exhortations that we need to live more environmentally coherent lives—for example, that we need to conserve energy and, more recently, the supply of food. We will achieve those longer-term environmental objectives only if we recognise that a lot of the policies that we undertake today will impact on those objectives. We should make provision for smaller numbers of people from minority groups who choose to live near where they were born or where their parents live—not people such as me who have come from half way across the world, or my siblings, but people who want to be within 15 miles of where they were born when they die. It is important to recognise that the longer-term environmental objectives that we want to achieve may well be served by giving voice to those people and catering for their needs. That objective may well be among the intentions of the noble Baroness, but it is not in the Bill and it would be most helpful to see it there.
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Lord Bassam of BrightonMy Lords, this has been one of those extraordinary debates where we have gone from the local to the global. We have sca…
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Lord Bassam of BrightonLabour
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My Lords, this has been one of those extraordinary debates where we have gone from the local to the global. We have scaled the history of housing with input from my noble friend, who talked about the long-term impact of council house sales, and we heard heartfelt pleas from the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, for people who live in rural communities. He added his important voice to a debate that has continued in your Lordships’ House for some decades. We have benefited from the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Best, who has great experience in this field. We are talking about the creation of the HCA, an important agency, to address many of these issues. As the noble Earl reminded us, this issue has caught our attention at all stages of our important deliberations on the Bill. The observation of the noble Lord, Lord Best, on the rural community in Dorset reminded me of my rural roots. I mentioned previously that I grew up on a rural council estate in Great Bentley. Much of that estate of some 50 houses and bungalows was sold off as part of the right-to-buy process. Most of those homes were built for people working on the land just after the war and for people who worked in offices and factories in Colchester or Clacton. Those homes provided an important service for lower-income earners. I well understand the issue raised by the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart. The noble Earl’s earlier amendment used the term “particular”. At the end of our deliberations in Committee, there was an understanding, best enunciated by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, that “particular” did not work well in the context of the noble Earl’s amendment. I carefully read this amendment, which asks that, “the HCA shall balance the needs for affordable housing in urban and non-urban communities”. The amendment does not make precise reference to rural communities; it describes anything that is not urban as “non-urban” and it talks about balancing the needs. I have difficulty with the amendment, because the call to balance could arguably end up as some imbalance. There is a problem with the wording. I do not know how much the noble Earl tested out the amendment before tabling it, but there are technical difficulties in what he is trying, understandably, to achieve. I want further to address the issues before I conclude my comments, because some things are worth putting on the record. I entirely agree that more affordable homes need to be built in communities that most need them. There is undoubtedly a backlog of need in some rural communities for the very reason that the noble Lord, Lord Best, enunciated. Others have also given voice to that. There is no question but that one of the central tasks of the new Homes and Communities Agency will be to deliver more affordable housing where that need is greatest. The agency will focus on delivering more new affordable homes across all tenures, in mixed and sustainable communities, and it will drive and invest in regeneration and revitalising existing communities. To do this, the HCA will support local partners that will deliver the new homes and regeneration projects and it will provide advice and support for innovative new approaches to delivery—for example, through new local housing companies or community land trusts, which have had a great deal of support during our discussions. It will also help to drive more effective joint working with the emerging private sector partners. In taking over the affordable housing programme from the Housing Corporation, it will secure the delivery of 70,000 new affordable homes per year by 2010-11. In the current market conditions, this role becomes ever more important and the agency’s ability to act innovatively and in partnership to respond to new challenges becomes vital. Therefore, the noble Earl’s concerns will be met by the new agency focusing on delivering affordable housing across all our communities. The amendment is not essential to ensure that; the Bill’s clauses are already clear on this point. Indeed, with its reference to housing needs assessment, the amendment seems unhelpfully to require the HCA to replicate functions already carried out by local authorities, so there is also a difficulty with it in that respect. Local authorities are already required to undertake housing needs assessments and it would be an unnecessary waste of resources to require the HCA to carry out a similar exercise. Indeed, local authorities are far better able to assess the housing needs in their area than a national agency such as the HCA. I imagine that, with his background experience in a rural local authority, the noble Earl would appreciate that more than most. The other issue raised by the amendment is the importance of affordable housing in both urban and non-urban communities. I have already explained that the agency will work with local authorities across the country, supporting rural and urban authorities in meeting the needs of their communities. Local authorities will identify those needs and the agency will have the resources to help to meet them where it is practical for it to do so. As we have said many times before, we see the agency as being local authorities’ best delivery partner. To help to strengthen that message, the draft protocol between the HCA and local authorities—I am sure that the noble Earl has seen it—demonstrates the commitment of both central government and the LGA to working together to meet today’s and the future’s housing and regeneration challenges. I know that the House takes this issue seriously. As I think was acknowledged in my noble friend’s letter, at earlier stages we set out in some detail exactly how government are responding to challenges in rural areas and how the Homes and Communities Agency will help local authorities to respond to the needs of their communities in the rural context. I extend an offer to noble Lords to hear in more detail about the work of the agency at a meeting on this important issue with the chief executive designate, Sir Bob Kerslake, and the chair designate, Robert Napier. I think that noble Lords would find it helpful to have the opportunity to discuss what the agency can do in practice and to raise any concerns that they have. My noble friend Lady Andrews and I will be happy to arrange that discussion and more than happy to ensure that colleagues who are particularly exercised by the import of rural communities take part in it. I know that Sir Bob Kerslake recognises that the agency will have a key role in supporting rural communities, including focusing on the provision of affordable rural housing. I know also that he has met Matthew Taylor MP to discuss his review of the rural economy and affordable housing and that he has seen, and commented on, his draft report. He also recently met the All-Party Group on Rural Affordable Housing and intends to meet the Rural Housing Advisory Group on Thursday this week. Therefore, much is going on with regard to this policy area. Of course, the Rural Housing Advisory Group will act as an advisory body to the HCA to ensure that rural housing issues are seen very much as part of its focus and remit. As I said at the outset, I do not think that the amendment works entirely well. There are technical problems with it and I do not think that it would work as well as the noble Earl might wish. I know that he is pressing his case and that he has a lot of support in your Lordships’ House. I hope that I have reassured him but I place one final commitment on the record. If the noble Earl will withdraw the amendment this evening, we will be happy to have further discussions with him to see whether we can meet his concerns and those of others before we return to debate the Bill at Third Reading. There is a genuine problem with the amendment and I am not sure that it is the most appropriate way to deal with this issue. However, we are certainly happy to explore it further because there is clearly a consensus that we need to ensure that the HCA focuses not just on urban areas, although that has never been our intention. We need to ensure that the HCA is understood to have the widest possible remit and that it addresses the real concerns relating to rural poverty and, as some have seen it, the rundown of the provision of affordable housing in some rural communities. I have given some fairly firm commitments and I hope that the noble Earl will be able to withdraw his amendment. We are happy to continue discussion on this issue before Third Reading.
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Earl CathcartMy Lords, that was a useful debate and I thank all—or nearly all—Members for their support. The noble Lord, Lord Best,…
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Earl CathcartConservative
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My Lords, that was a useful debate and I thank all—or nearly all—Members for their support. The noble Lord, Lord Best, asked why rural housing should get a special mention. I think that that was a rhetorical question because he then went on to explain exactly why it should get a special mention. In the same vein, the noble Lord, Lord Graham, asked why there was a greater need for help in rural as opposed to urban communities. I listened carefully to his contribution but I could not make up my mind about it. At times, he seemed to support the amendment and at others he seemed to speak against it. I shall tell the House why rural communities need greater help. In the five years from 2001 to 2005, the Commission for Rural Communities highlighted a gap, in that the amount of affordable housing built in predominantly rural districts increased by only 3 per cent compared with 22 per cent in predominantly urban districts. That is why rural areas have been falling behind and why in future there needs to be a balance between the urban and rural areas. The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, asked whether suburbia was included in urban or non-urban areas. The point is that it is up to you. You can decide whether it is urban or suburban; it has to be one or the other. In the earlier letter to which I referred, the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, tried to confuse the matter slightly by asking about district and coastal towns. Rather than trying to be precise in this amendment by putting in “rural” and having that same ball batted back at me, I thought that we would refer to “urban and non-urban communities”. The board of the HCA has to balance what it will do between urban and non-urban areas. It is up to it, so it is not confusing at all. The Minister said that he had a problem with the word “balance”, but it is up to the HCA to work out how to balance needs. I do not buy the Minister’s argument that there is a technical problem. The problem is that non-urban areas desperately need a better balance of resources. They have not had that for a number of years—I shall not specify the number. The balance needs to be redressed. The amendment is not trying to be prescriptive by saying that for every £4 spent in urban areas we must spend £1 in rural areas or that for every four houses built in urban areas we must build one in a rural area. It says that it is up to the HCA board to balance the needs for affordable housing in urban and non-urban areas. It is for the HCA to work it out. The noble Lord, Lord Bassam, kindly offered a promise of a talk. He did not promise anything for the Bill. Whereas a talk might be valuable, we really need something—
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Lord Bassam of BrightonMy Lords, perhaps I was being Delphic, but when I referred to a discussion I did not mean about nothing. It was to see…
Speaker
Lord Bassam of BrightonLabour
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My Lords, perhaps I was being Delphic, but when I referred to a discussion I did not mean about nothing. It was to see whether there was some substance with which to aid the process. The offer was that; it was not to talk about nothing. I am happy to discuss wording with the noble Earl.
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Earl CathcartMy Lords, I take that to mean that the Minister will discuss doing something of substance with the words of the amendme…
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Earl CathcartConservative
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My Lords, I take that to mean that the Minister will discuss doing something of substance with the words of the amendment, such as including “rural housing”, “balancing rural housing”, or whatever words are required. I suggested in Committee that the Minister should do that but nothing was done then, so it does no harm to test the opinion of the House.
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Earl Cathcartmoved Amendment No. 10:
Speaker
Earl CathcartConservative
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moved Amendment No. 10:
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Lord Brooke of Sutton MandevilleMy Lords, I shall be extremely brief. I had the pleasure and privilege of going to the conference arranged by the Assoc…
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Lord Brooke of Sutton MandevilleConservative
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My Lords, I shall be extremely brief. I had the pleasure and privilege of going to the conference arranged by the Association of British Insurers. I am not sure whether either of the Ministers present were there on that occasion, but the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, was sitting immediately in front of me, for which I gave him extremely good marks and with whom I exchanged an occasional word. Anyone who was there would have been aware of the nature of the unhappiness, not with God or the flooding arrangements, but with the degree of human suffering that occurs as a consequence of flooding. I simply say to the government Front Bench that, were there not to be a sympathetic response to the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Cathcart, a lot of people at that conference would wonder whether the Government were as serious as they suggested.
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Baroness HamweeMy Lords, at the previous stage, my noble friend Lord Greaves said that the important words were “resilient” and “resis…
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Baroness HamweeLiberal Democrat
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My Lords, at the previous stage, my noble friend Lord Greaves said that the important words were “resilient” and “resistant”. That is right. It seems that, increasingly, we will have to plan to adapt to flooding and be resilient to it because it cannot be wholly avoided. I would say that the HCA’s work on flooding would need to go rather wider than I read the amendment. It now seems to be generally accepted that it is important, when we are talking about flooding from rivers, to allow—to use layman’s terms—for a river to expand and to leave space for that. That is also the case when laying permeable hard surfaces in a development. I distinguish between the two because, in a sense, this is a development that is not a development. That is the point. Moreover—this is very much an urban reaction—this is not only about flooding as we know it but about the lack of capacity in our sewerage systems to deal particularly with the rather different monsoon-type weather that we get now, with its very heavy bursts of rain rather than the more gentle sort that fills up the aquifers and keeps us all happy through every season. This is hugely important. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, who looks as though he is about to respond, will tell us that the HCA must carry out these barrier assessments as well as lots of other things, but an acknowledgment of it all would certainly be appropriate.
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Baroness FordMy Lords, simply and briefly, when the HCA brings forward developments, it will obviously have to go through the planni…
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Baroness FordCrossbench
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My Lords, simply and briefly, when the HCA brings forward developments, it will obviously have to go through the planning system and then engage as part of the statutory consultation process where appropriate. In the exceptional circumstances in which it had to use its own planning powers, it would still be doing so within the overall framework of the Town and Country Planning Acts and would have to go through exactly the same process, so the fact that it was using those powers in exceptional circumstances would not exempt it—far from it—from having to go through the statutory consultation with the Environment Agency. In addition, I reassure noble Lords that, following the flooding of New Orleans two or three years ago, the board of English Partnerships immediately instructed officials to review all our land holdings and carry out a detailed flood risk assessment, not because we needed to statutorily but because we felt that it was correct in the circumstances to ensure that we fully understood the risks associated with the land holdings that we were stewarding on behalf of government. If we had needed to take action at that time, we would most certainly have done so.
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Lord Bassam of BrightonMy Lords, the amendment is almost the same as the one that noble Lords opposite tabled in Committee. I know that the no…
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Lord Bassam of BrightonLabour
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My Lords, the amendment is almost the same as the one that noble Lords opposite tabled in Committee. I know that the noble Earl will be a little disappointed, but my response in general will be pretty much the same as the one that we gave then. That is not because I do not recognise the importance of the issues. I certainly acknowledge the real distress that flooding has caused people in many communities in the past few years when places have become susceptible to it. The noble Lord, Lord Brooke, valuably reminded us of that. Some people are still in straitened circumstances as a product of some of the floods last year, so we are all very conscious of these issues. We should be reassured by the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Ford, who obviously acted quickly following the New Orleans floods to ensure that her own organisation at least tried to analyse and understand the essential impacts within the context of our own housing. The amendment would require the Homes and Communities Agency, prior to undertaking any activities in relation to land, regeneration, development or infrastructure, to carry out various assessments of flood risks. No one can dispute the importance of proper consideration of flood prevention and reduction measures. As the noble Baroness, Lady Ford, said, that work continues and has renewed importance. The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, echoed that. Last summer’s events vividly reminded us of that and brought the point home.
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Earl CathcartMy Lords, the noble Lord says that the amendment would require the HCA to carry out flood assessments for any developme…
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Earl CathcartConservative
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My Lords, the noble Lord says that the amendment would require the HCA to carry out flood assessments for any development. That is exactly what it would require the HCA to do. All the amendment says is that the HCA must, “assess fully the risk of flooding to any new development”. We hope that that is already done, but the noble Lord should try telling that to the 5,000 people who still cannot get back into their houses. The amendment then says that the HCA must, “assess fully the impact of any new development on downstream risks”. The Bill is in front of us. The aim is to build 3 million new houses by 2020. There is nothing in the Bill about flooding, which we are told will affect more of us as the years go by because of climate change. We know that a good percentage of these new homes will be built in flood risk areas on flood plains. There should be something in the Bill. The Minister also says that the Government will intervene when local authorities go against environmental advice. Flooding happened 21 times in one year, yet the developments continued. This is a very important issue. We are running out of good areas on which to build new housing and will rely more on flood plains because they are an easy option.
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Baroness HamweeMy Lords, the noble Earl’s amendment deals with new development, but he is speaking very much about the existing situat…
Speaker
Baroness HamweeLiberal Democrat
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My Lords, the noble Earl’s amendment deals with new development, but he is speaking very much about the existing situation. No one would dispute the problems that he has described, but can he marry that to his amendment?
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Earl CathcartMy Lords, in the past, we have had problems with flooding and we are told by everyone that they will not go away. The m…
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Earl CathcartConservative
Quote
My Lords, in the past, we have had problems with flooding and we are told by everyone that they will not go away. The more we build, the more flooding problems we will have. This Bill deals with 3 million new homes in England. That is how the past and future marry. We will be building a great deal more houses and there is nothing in this Bill on flooding and flood assessments. I am slightly reassured that the Minister, or perhaps it was the noble Baroness, Lady Ford, said that if the HCA takes over any planning it will be required to do flood assessments in the normal course of events. It would have to do flood assessments anyway because that is what the planner is required to do. I am disappointed that the Minister is unable to accept this amendment, but I beg leave to withdraw it. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 9 [Acquisition of land]:
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Lord Bassam of Brightonmoved Amendment No. 11:
Speaker
Lord Bassam of BrightonLabour
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moved Amendment No. 11:
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18:45
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EnactedHousing and Regeneration Act 2008