Committee stage in the Lords
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Lord SelsdonConservative- Quote
- My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to. House in Committee accordingly. [The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen) in the Chair.] Clause 1 [Interpretation]:
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Lord TrefgarneConservative- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 1:
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- Lord SelsdonConservative
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- I now understand why it was once recommended that only naval officers should organise the procedures in your Lordships’ House. I apologise to people who suggested that we should have more time for this. I crave to boon. The boon is simply that you note in your diaries “die Jovis ante diem sextum idus Julias”, which is Report on this Bill—
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- Lord TrefgarneConservative
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- I apologise for interrupting my noble friend. He is out of order in speaking in Latin in your Lordships’ House.
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- Lord SelsdonConservative
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- As the noble Lord knows, we are not out of order in utilising Latin in this House historically. I took advice. My suggestion is that we should not debate many of these amendments and allow the Minister at the end to say something. I propose to say something at the end. I can promise your Lordships that as these matters go further numerous things will be taken into account, including all the amendments of my noble friend. As your Lordships’ know, he joined the House in 1962 and I joined only in 1963. He is therefore infinitely senior to me and we respect him. He also introduced some of the legislation which gave powers of entry but he cannot remember which. That is all I have to say on this.
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- Lord TrefgarneConservative
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- I am not quite sure what intervention my noble friend is seeking from me at this point. He is right that I took a number of the Bills we will deal with later in the schedule through your Lordships’ House. I apologise for intervening yet again. I do not propose to press this further but would be grateful to hear if the Minister has anything to say on the matters I raised earlier.
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- If I could get back to the noble Lords on those particular points, I will do so.
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- Lord TrefgarneConservative
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- I am greatly obliged to the Minister. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 1 agreed to. Clause 2 [Powers regulated by this Act]:
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- Lord TrefgarneConservative
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- moved Amendment No. 2:
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The Countess of MarCrossbench- Quote
- Does the Bill cover photography from satellites, which is used frequently by Defra to incriminate people who infringe the rules? Defra uses it as evidence.
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Lord West of SpitheadLabour- Quote
- Again, I am afraid that I do not know the exact detail of this. I will have to write back on exactly when satellite imagery of various kinds can be used in conjunction with other powers.
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- Lord TrefgarneConservative
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- There is something called Google Earth, with which the Minister may be familiar—I have looked at it occasionally myself. There is no doubt that that is used, for example, for checking whether property owners have contravened the planning legislation. I hope that that can be controlled as well. Perhaps the Minister can write to me on that matter as well. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 2 agreed to. Clauses 3 and 4 agreed to. Clause 5 [Limitations on powers of entry]:
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The Earl of NortheskConservative- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 3:
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- Lord SelsdonConservative
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- I had not intended to speak to his amendment because I have already spoken to my noble friend. As noble Lords know, he is one of the leading experts in this field. We suggested that this particular issue should be raised some time in the future. It is linked to the amendment to be moved by my noble friend Lord Marlesford. I ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.
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- The Earl of NortheskConservative
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- I had hoped that the Minister might give some indication of the Government’s thinking on the amendment.
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- Lord West of SpitheadLabour
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- I can give a flavour of that. The proportionality of the power of entry is, and should continue to be, established for each proposed new or amending power. This includes assessing the appropriateness of any power of seizure or inspection. The Government have made very clear, in their evidence to both the Home Affairs Committee on surveillance and the Constitution Committee on the impact of surveillance and data collection, that privacy, the right protection and safeguards for the individual, and the impact on the individual, are issues to be considered before legislation is put before Parliament. I do not want to say more than that. I propose, if I may, that the noble Lord withdraws the amendment.
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- The Earl of NortheskConservative
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- I am grateful for the Minister’s clarification of the issue and find that entirely satisfactory at this stage. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendments Nos. 4 and 5 not moved.] Clause 5 agreed to. Clause 6 [Times when entry may take place]: [Amendments Nos. 6 and 7 not moved.] Clause 6 agreed to. Clause 7 [Number of persons permitted to enter premises]: [Amendments Nos. 8 and 9 not moved.] Clause 7 agreed to. Clause 8 [Production of documents etc.]: [Amendments Nos. 10 and 11 not moved.] Clause 8 agreed to.
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Lord MarlesfordConservative- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 12:
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- Lord SelsdonConservative
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- I wholeheartedly support my noble friend’s amendment. As the Committee might expect, we discussed it at length beforehand. It seems to me an important part of the Bill, and of any future legislation, that it should contain a powers of entry clause. This is a most suitable new clause and a most suitable amendment. On Question, amendment agreed to. Clause 9 [Seizure of documents]: [Amendment No. 13 not moved.] Clause 9 agreed to. Clause 10 [Saving]:
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- Lord SelsdonConservative
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- moved Amendment No. 14:
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Baroness HanhamConservative- Quote
- Having taken part in the Second Reading and now hearing the amendments that have been moved, it is staggering to learn, for each department, how many Acts of Parliament give the right of entry. The work that has been done is prodigious. It is clearly not finished, but people will refer to it for a very long time.
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- The Earl of NortheskConservative
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- I have one question for the Minister, which I suspect he will not have the answer to at his fingertips. As my noble friend has explained, there is evidently considerable confusion about what powers of entry lie on the statute book. What concerns me is that there are a number of non-departmental bodies, as I understand it, that have quasi-legislative powers in their own right. For example, if I remember correctly, the Financial Services Authority can legislate in its own right to give itself powers of entry. My question is whether those sorts of situations could be contained within the schedule. Failing that, would the inclusion of the Financial Services and Markets Act within the schedule cover that eventuality?
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- Lord SelsdonConservative
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- I thought that the Minister might have liked to say something at this point. On Question, amendment agreed to. [Amendment No. 15 not moved.] Clause 10, as amended, agreed to. Clause 11 agreed to. Schedule 1 [Acts containing powers of entry, or authorising the making of regulations containing such powers]:
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- Lord SelsdonConservative
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- moved Amendment No. 16:
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