Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons in the Lords
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Baroness Williams of TraffordConservative- Quote
- That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 1 to 18.
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- The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)Conservative
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- My Lords, in moving en bloc that this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 1 to 18, I will also speak to Commons Amendments 21 to 39, 42 to 44, 62 to 73, 75, 76, 78, 79 and 80 to 82, and speak about the amendments that the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, has tabled to Commons Amendment 31 and Commons Amendment 36. I am very pleased to put forward this group of amendments, which demonstrate the progress that has been made since the Bill was first introduced last May and that the Government have listened to the views made known in this House and in the other place. I do not wish to detain the House too long on this group, as we have a lot to discuss, but I put on record that I am grateful for the continued constructive approach of noble Lords opposite, particularly the noble Lords, Lord McKenzie, Lord Beecham and—I have just spotted him—Lord Smith of Leigh and Lord Shipley. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Warner, for the ongoing discussions to refine his clause on health matters, but we shall return to those matters later today. It is in that spirit that I first speak to Amendments 1, 2 and 4, where the Government are pleased to accept the amendments inserted by this House for an annual report by the Secretary of State on devolution. These further amendments came as a result of listening to the debate in the other place. They will ensure that the Secretary of State’s annual report will include information on the extent to which powers that have been devolved to a mayor also remain exercisable by a Minister of the Crown. It is only right that the Government are transparent when it comes to the devolution of powers to both local and combined authorities and these amendments, which the Government introduced in the other place, do just that. I shall, of course, listen to noble Lords very carefully when they speak later today, but I cannot help noticing that they have not tabled anything for debate in response to Amendments 3 and 5, which remove Clause 2, inserted in this place against the wishes of the Government. We have removed the requirement that each Bill placed before Parliament be accompanied by a ministerial Statement explaining the extent to which the provisions are compatible with devolution. We are concerned with the reality of devolution. The Bill provides the necessary provisions to achieve genuine devolution of powers to those areas that want it. For many Bills, such a devolution statement would represent superfluous bureaucracy, having no implication for functions that can be devolved, such as national security, defence and international relations. The removal of the clause was not opposed in the other place and we remain of the view that these provisions should not be included in the Bill. Amendment 6 removes the requirement that a mayor cannot be a precondition of transferring local authority or public authority functions to a combined authority. In our manifesto we specifically committed to, “devolve far-reaching powers over economic development, transport and social care to large cities which choose to have elected mayors”. Government policy, therefore, is expressly to make the transfer of local authority or public authority functions to a combined authority dependent on that local authority having a mayor. This is because, if areas are to have these new, far-reaching powers, they must adopt strong governance and accountability arrangements. People need to know who is responsible for decisions affecting their daily lives and who to hold to account. However, we are not forcing mayors on anyone. Whether an area has a mayor and the far-reaching powers that come with having one is entirely a matter for local areas. We want to hear from those areas what their proposals are, what powers and budgets they want devolved to them, and what governance arrangements they need to support those powers and budgets. But, if an area wants to have a devolution deal of the scale and ambition of Greater Manchester’s, for those kinds of functions to be devolved, having a directly elected mayor is an essential prerequisite. This requirement, which Amendment 6 removes, poses major risks to the delivery of the Greater Manchester and Sheffield city region deals. This is because, if the Government tried to make orders using the powers in new Section 107A to deliver these deals, there is a possibility that the courts would find that these deals contravened this statutory prohibition, the effect of which would be likely to result in no further orders being made to transfer additional functions to that area. This is an outcome that I doubt anyone would want. The other place divided twice and decided by majorities of 81 and 95 respectively to remove the requirement. The message from the elected House is clear. For these reasons, I hope noble Lords will agree to this amendment. Amendments 7, 8, 15, 18, 21, 22, 23, 30 and 82 give more flexibility over how devolution can work for different places. The amendments build on the provisions we approved to further enhance the flexibility for existing combined authorities where one or more of the constituent local authorities do not wish to sign up to certain aspects of devolution. As it left us, the Bill enabled a local authority to be removed from a combined authority if it does not agree to the combined authority’s wish to adopt the position of mayor. These amendments enable one or more councils that do not want to adopt a mayor or to agree to the first devolution of powers to be removed from the combined authority. This means that councils that do not wish to agree to such aspects of the deal cannot be forced to, but neither can they prevent the combined authority and councils that do agree to the adoption of mayor or the devolved powers proceeding with these.
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Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)Labour- Quote
- My Lords, I will contain my remarks largely to the amendments of my noble friend Lord Beecham. Regarding some of the amendments that the Minister has mentioned, it is fair to say that we welcome the fact that the Commons has accepted the points raised here by noble Lords, but we regret that some have not been agreed. I notice that the Minister said that it is up to local areas to agree whether they want to have mayors. That is correct but, standing here now, I think of the situation that Bristol finds itself in. It is uniquely, except for London, unable to decide that it does not want to have a mayor any more. We have discussed that issue before and it is regrettable. I also find it hard to accept that a Government who talk about devolution and localism should then seek to impose structures, not allowing an authority to decide its own best form of governance. Is that really the right way forward? One of the problems with the Government’s handling of these matters is in not always allowing a local authority to decide the proper mechanism for its area. My noble friend Lord Beecham has tabled a number of amendments relating to Commons Amendment 31, which was put into the Bill very late in the day during consideration on Report in the other place. It is fair to say that this provision took local government by surprise. Considerable concern has been expressed about the aim to give districts and counties the right to request a governance change without regard to the other authority. It surely must be that seeking agreement by working in collaboration is the best way forward. I note what the Minister said about trying to get consensus but that is why my noble friend Lord Beecham has tabled his amendments. They are about ensuring that we get consensus on these things. It would be helpful if the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, could explain further how the government amendments came about. I know that she made reference to Mr Clive Betts, and I am conscious that the amendment came from him, but we want to know a bit more about the discussions that took place, including those with local government. Government Amendment 31 leaves too much to chance, which is why my noble friend seeks to ensure a more collaborative process. The Minister explained the situation but it is fair to say that her explanation, although clear, was quite complicated. If it is complicated for this House, what is it going to be like on the ground? It will be even more complicated. Transport is now delivered by one area and education by another. We then have directly elected mayors and PCCs, with the possibility of the fire and rescue service also being taken over. This seems to me a recipe not for good governance but for confusion and a lack of democratic accountability. I know the east Midlands very well, as I worked there for about 15 years. Both Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire are very well-run authorities. It has not come from these councils or authorities to have this provision; it has clearly come from a bit further north in Sheffield. I see no desire among local residents there to have different arrangements. As your Lordships will know, both counties have a proud history. Derby and Nottingham left them and are now unitary authorities. They are both large rural areas with large towns. They have a proud mining history but are also a centre for new start-up businesses and for more established businesses such as—
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Lord Scriven (LD)Liberal Democrat- Quote
- Will the noble Lord give way? I am a former leader of Sheffield City Council and a resident of the city. Has the noble Lord spoken to the leaders of Chesterfield and Bassetlaw councils, where people may have a different view to the one he has just expressed?
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- Lord Kennedy of SouthwarkLabour
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- I have not spoken to the leaders of Chesterfield or Bassetlaw councils but I have spoken to the leaders of Derbyshire County Council and Nottinghamshire County Council. It is an area I know quite well, but I accept we are not going to agree on all our points. This is also an area of considerable natural beauty with a thriving tourism industry. I would be grateful if the noble Baroness could talk about the devolution deal for Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire. Discussions are taking place with those councils, but there are concerns. They are worried that any deal there will be potentially undermined by having further discussions about other councils leaving that area. This is not a good way of going forward.
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Lord Shipley (LD)Liberal Democrat- Quote
- My Lords, there are advantages and disadvantages when this House considers a Bill in advance of the House of Commons. The advantages are that we can take an early view of proposals and make suggestions for the other place to consider. Among the disadvantages is that we can be asked to consider a very large number of amendments from the Government at a very late stage. This afternoon, we have 87 government amendments, of which 59 are in this group alone. This adds to the complexity and means that we have to be very careful in agreeing to amendments, as we have not had fuller consideration of them in Committee. That said, in many cases, the amendments proposed by the Government improve the Bill. They clarify and enable, and they promote localism. We will shortly, I hope, have a further discussion about Amendments 31A and 36A, but the Minister has moved that we agree with Amendments 1 to 18 at this stage, and I want to say one or two things about the overall content and context of the amendments under discussion. The promotion of localism has to be a partnership if it is to be successful, which I think is what the Minister has said. For that reason, the additional powers now being proposed for the Secretary of State need to be used very sparingly, and I hope we will hear from the Minister further confirmation as the afternoon progresses that this is indeed the Government’s intention. In that context, Amendments 31, 31A, 36 and 36A are extremely important, and I support the amendments which will be moved later this afternoon by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. We have also received the advice of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, which published its comments on 22 December. That committee rightly pointed out that when we considered the Bill in the summer, the Government gave assurances that the powers of the Secretary of State over brokering bespoke deals would be constrained by the need for all councils in a given area to consent. That requirement no longer has to apply, at least until March 2019. On these Benches we have always been strong advocates of localism and the further devolution of powers to local authorities or combinations of them. But partnership and consent matter if devolution is to work. For that reason, I hope that we will hear assurances from the Minister that the powers will be used very sparingly, that they will only be used in circumstances that promote effective localism and that the procedural guarantees sought by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, will be followed so that local authorities are encouraged to work collaboratively together. I have two further points. The Minister referred to the fact that there will be an annual report. I am very pleased about that in the context of all our debates in Committee and on Report. Although not all of the amendments proposed by your Lordships’ House were agreed in the other place, the annual report will give a focus for clarifying and sharing what has happened, what good practice has been promoted and which pilots have proved successful. It is very important that that does not stay in Whitehall with Ministers but is shared with the whole country. I hope that the Minister will be able to confirm that not only will that annual report be issued but this House will have the opportunity to debate it. The second issue I want to draw attention to from the Minister’s opening speech is her use of the words strong governance. She said that an elected mayor model is a model for strong governance, so that the public know where responsibilities lie. I have expressed doubts about the single-leader model and the ability of a single person to do so many things—perhaps, to be the police and crime commissioner or to take on responsibility through the combined authority structure for fire and rescue. If NHS matters or responsibility for children’s services are to be devolved to a combined authority level, it seems difficult for one person to do so very much and remain democratically accountable. I can hear the Minister’s reply, which will be that those matters will then be devolved to other leaders within the combined authority. We have had these debates before in the summer. Of course, we do not have elected mayors yet in most places and will not for the next two or three years, but it will be very important to review how they are performing as part of the annual report. I have two concerns about this in a democratic sense. One is that councillors of constituent authorities will know less and less about what is actually happening in their areas because more and more decisions will effectively be centralised. Secondly, the general public may not understand who will be responsible for a decision and where it should be challenged if they do not agree with it. Reviewing that constantly seems very important. That is all I want to say at this stage. I may say a bit more when the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, moves his amendments to Amendments 31 and 36 but, for the moment, I think that there is a different mood in England now about devolution. There are problems and, in some places, occasional conflicts, but, in the main, there is a willingness to accept devolved powers from Whitehall and Westminster—indeed, a very strong desire to do so. The moves of the previous Government and this one have demonstrated that the appetite is there for those devolved powers to be granted.
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Lord Beecham (Lab)Labour- Quote
- My Lords, for the avoidance of doubt, I should say that, although I am speaking from the Back Benches, I have not resigned from the Front Bench, nor have I yet been removed from it. I am grateful to the Minister for the meeting she held yesterday to explain the 50 or so amendments in this group—almost constituting a Bill in themselves. In addition to the points made by my noble friend Lord Kennedy, I would be grateful if she explained in more detail the effect of Amendment 34 on electoral arrangements. What would be covered by the order-making power? Would it extend to ward boundary changes, council size or the electoral cycle? Will the function be carried out by the Secretary of State or the Electoral Commission? If there is to be secondary legislation, will it be by affirmative resolution? The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, has already referred to the report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. In a spirit of consensus, no doubt, he did not quite quote the committee’s rather stringent comments about the way the Government have proceeded. Paragraph 2 of the report states: “Amendment 36 is one of a number of amendments to clause 16 of the Bill. Clause 16 confers a power on the Secretary of State by regulations to make changes to the governance arrangements, constitution and membership, and the structural and boundary arrangements”. Having considered the Government’s response, the committee concluded: “We remain of the view that the powers conferred by clause 16 are inappropriate in the absence of the kinds of constraints and protections which apply to combined authorities under Part 6 of the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009. Amendment 36, which will have the effect of weakening the consent regime under clause 16, serves only to strengthen our view in this regard”. The report was published on 22 December. We are now half way through January and the Government have not yet responded except, by implication, to reject it by ignoring it. Perhaps the Minister will give some explanation of the Government’s position on the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee’s report. More generally, it is necessary to ask whether the Government have thought through the implications of the impact of some of the changes the amendments in this group and the other groups may have on the existing local government structure if, for example, district councils in two-tier areas join combined authorities, as is apparently envisaged in the case of some districts in Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire. They may join for the purposes of participating in infrastructure schemes or economic development while remaining within their county councils for other services, for example, education or social care. What if the combined authority then seeks to take responsibility for the NHS? This is happening in Greater Manchester. My noble friend Lord Smith will no doubt enlighten us on the progress that is being made there, which will be watched with interest, not to say fascination, by others in local government. What happens in areas where district councils depart from their county for some purposes but not for others? Would public health and child and adult services have to be transferred to the combined authority, given that Amendments 21 and 22 refer only to the consent of members of the combined authority? If so, what impact might that have on the services in what is left of the county council? This is one of the effects of Amendment 45, which revokes the requirement for a local authority to consent to regulations revoking a transfer of functions where the revocation relates to health service functions. If not, what is the purpose of Amendment 45? Further, what, if any, are the implications for police and fire services, on which the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, briefly touched? Moreover, given that the revenue support grant is to disappear and the entirety of business rates will henceforth accrue to local authorities, have the Government thought through the implications for areas in which districts might opt to join the neighbouring combined authority for some purposes—for example, economic development—but not others? Where would the business rates generated in those districts go? If they go in whole or in part to the district or the combined authority, is there not a risk that services to other parts of the existing county, which would have benefited from business rates in that area, will suffer a potential risk because they may not have a proportionate business rate income, actual or potential, in the rest of the county and may suffer as a result? Are these the sort of matters the Secretary of State will consider under Amendments 23 and 42? If so, what criteria are envisaged to apply? The amendments in my name have effectively been more than adequately covered by my noble friend Lord Kennedy. The need for a consensual approach, which I think is right, was acknowledged by Ministers in what was almost a last-minute debate on the Bill in the House of Commons. However, the amendments seek only to strengthen the process under which conclusion might be reached; they do not postulate a particular outcome but emphasise the importance of seeking consensus, particularly among the communities that would be affected, not only within those districts that might seek to join in a combined authority but in the residual area of the county that may be affected by that decision.
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- Baroness Williams of TraffordConservative
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- My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. I shall start with the question from the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, about two-tier authorities and what sorts of discussions we have been involved with. On a personal level, I have spoken to councils up and down the country. While I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, that there is not consensus across the country, there is certainly the feeling that in some areas districts might feel vetoed by counties and vice versa, so this provision will enable either districts or counties to move in the way that they would wish. Consensus is of course the thing that we are seeking, but we also do not want authorities to be able to veto others in the aims that they seek to achieve. The noble Lord asked me about transport across combined authority areas. We shall get on to transport in later groups, but of course Transport for the North, which will cover a vast area, will deal with just that issue, because of course transport does not start at one local authority boundary and finish at the other end of it; it transcends areas and is ideally placed to be dealt with on that much broader scale. To go back to the first point, I understand that officials have held discussions with the County Councils Network and with the authorities involved—I am going beyond what I have been doing. Extensive discussions have taken place across the country. The noble Lord also talked about the Bristol issue. Noble Lords will recall that an amendment was moved in this place, which the other place accepted, which put the Bristol mayor in the same position as mayors of other authorities, so that the local electorate can petition for a referendum to be held on whether mayoral governance in Bristol should continue and such a referendum is able to be held after the 10-year moratorium period—therefore from 2022. The other place accepted this as Clause 21 as the Bill left the other place. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, talked about powers being used very circumspectly. As the Secretary of State made clear in the other place, when he exercises those powers which the amendments made in the other place have given him, he will maintain the preference for consensus which he has shown to date, and the Government’s aim is to build on that consensus. The noble Lord also talked about the large number of amendments which have come back to this House, and I agree with him that there are a large number. However, he also talked about the sensibleness of most of those amendments and about the need to work in partnership. He is absolutely right that devolution will not be effective in the long term unless partnership is effective. That is why the word “consensus” has been mentioned so much in today’s debate, because unless those local authorities can work together, they will not succeed in their aims for growth and other things. The noble Lord also asked for further assurances that the powers will be used sparingly and that the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, would be reflected in the annual report. I hope that in my initial speech I gave those assurances, and I will give them again. Of course what will go into the report will be a matter for Bill managers, but I hope that I have made my feelings clear on that. Both the noble Lords, Lord Shipley and Lord Beecham, talked about the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. I wrote yesterday—and I accept some criticism for the lateness of that letter—about Amendment 36, that, “the context for these regulations making provision about local authority structures will be the implementation of devolution deals, specifically fast tracking the processes of such legislation as the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007. I also commented”— back on 29 June— “as you rightly refer, to the need for consent by all councils being sufficient safeguard that fast tracking will not remove inappropriately any essential constraint or protection. Notwithstanding this, we subsequently introduced a further safeguard by requiring that the use of this regulation power must be accompanied by the transparency given by a specific report to Parliament setting out the context (i.e. describing the bespoke deal) and providing information about any consultations or representations in connection with the regulations”.
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Lord Tyler (LD)Liberal Democrat- Quote
- My Lords, I serve on the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. The Minister will recall that this is not the first time she has been put in an impossible situation. With great respect to her, in the light of the very serious concerns and anxieties expressed by that committee about this section of the Bill and the powers given to the Minister under the Bill, it is not good enough for her to be provided with that text to read to the House at this stage without us being given an opportunity to see its significance. We in the committee took great care, with very good advice, over how these powers were going to be exercised. The department has put the Minister in an impossible situation. It had all last week—I assume that those in the department were working—to get this information to the House, and your Lordships should be given the opportunity to see these things in print rather than having to rely on the Minister. She has been put in this position twice. She should have the best possible advice and support, and she should go back to the department and say “Not good enough”.
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- Baroness Williams of TraffordConservative
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- My Lords, I can but apologise for the fact that the letter has arrived late and I hope noble Lords will accept that apology from me. However, I accept the noble Lord’s point. Amendment 45, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, enables the Secretary of State to revoke orders conferring health functions on a combined authority. I hope the noble Lord will be slightly patient—perhaps we can come to that in a later grouping when my noble friend Lord Prior will be talking about health. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, also asked me, I think, what happens to business rates if a district joins a combined authority without a county. There is no direct relationship between the membership of the combined authority and the business rates, which will be subject to further legislation. I hope that that helps the noble Lord.
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- Lord BeechamLabour
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- It depends on the legislation, although I do not envisage that the noble Baroness will be in quite the same position in that context as she has been over the point that she has just made. Can she indicate what time period we are looking at and what consultation will take place over that issue, and with whom?
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- Baroness Williams of TraffordConservative
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- My Lords, I expect a very quick timescale, given that some devolution deals have already been done. Time would be of the essence in getting these matters through, so I would expect the consultation process and the regulations to be dealt with fairly quickly. That is imperative, given that devolution deals have been done with different places. I hope that that is good enough for him. The noble Lord also asked me about Amendment 34. The regulations will be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure and the amendment makes clear exactly what procedures can be fast-tracked. These include changes to electoral arrangements but the Boundary Commission’s responsibilities remain unchanged. I think we went through that yesterday but I am very happy to confirm that, as it is a very important point. The noble Lord also asked me whether the Government are trying to reorganise local government. The answer is no. We are here to assist where local government wants to reorganise itself in terms of unitarisation. He also asked whether we are taking a Henry Ford approach. I hope that Cornwall shows that we are not. It will be up to local authorities to come forward with their proposals for their areas in due course. I have been passed a note which says that—if I can read the writing—regarding business rates, “future legislation” means primary legislation, which we will bring forward as parliamentary time allows. I hope that I have satisfied noble Lords in all the questions that they have raised.
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- Lord Kennedy of SouthwarkLabour
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- Perhaps the noble Baroness could say a bit more. Regarding my noble friend’s Amendment 31C, I agree that we should move forward on a basis of consensus. I also agree that no council should have a veto. I accept that entirely, as it would just stop things happening. However, that is why my noble friend’s amendment says that either council may make a referral to the Secretary of State. His intention is to avoid that happening; equally, his intention is to get consensus where we can. Can she say why she will not accept that amendment?
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- Baroness Williams of TraffordConservative
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- My Lords, we are trying to find the fine line here between consensus and councils not being able to veto the wider wish. I hope that that, in my own words, explains why we do not want to accept that amendment.
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- Baroness Williams of TraffordConservative
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- That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 19 and 20.
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- Baroness Williams of TraffordConservative
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- My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in its minor and technical Amendments 19, 20, 40, 41, 55 to 61, 83 and 84. Amendments 19 and 40 ensure that the reference to “document” in regulations is construed as referring to that document as it may subsequently be amended from time to time or replaced. Amendments 20 and 41 ensure that it is possible to transfer along with a function the criminal liabilities associated with that function. Amendment 55 makes it clear that, in addition to the ability to make any changes to legislation that may be needed in consequence of any of the provisions in this Bill, the Secretary of State also has the power to make regulations which make necessary changes following the making of secondary legislation made under the powers in the Bill. Amendments 56 to 61, 83 and 84 provide that where the Secretary of State has powers in relation to certain electoral matters, those powers may also be exercised concurrently with the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. These amendments ensure consistency with similar powers to make secondary legislation regarding the conduct of elections in the Local Government Act 2000.
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- Baroness Williams of TraffordConservative
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- That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 21 to 30.
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- Baroness Williams of TraffordConservative
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- That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 31.
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- Baroness Williams of TraffordConservative
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- That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 32 to 35.
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- Baroness Williams of TraffordConservative
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- That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 36.
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- Baroness Williams of TraffordConservative
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- That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 37 to 44.
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- Lord Prior of BramptonConservative
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- That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 45 to 51.
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Lord Prior of Brampton (Con)Conservative- Quote
- My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree the Motion on Commons Amendments 45 to 51. I shall speak also to other amendments in the group, including the clause inserted in the Bill following Clause 19 by Amendments 51 and 74. Your Lordships will remember our debates on the issue of safeguards for the devolution of NHS functions, culminating in the insertion of the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Warner, at Third Reading, against the Government’s wishes. We have now accepted this amendment and have worked to provide even further assurances. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Warner, for his ongoing co-operation and for his support for the further amendments as introduced in Committee in the other place. These amendments provide further clarity about the role of the Secretary of State for Health and what may and may not be included in any future transfer order giving local organisations devolved responsibility for health services. The clause as amended also includes clear provision to exclude from the scope of transfers the oversight role of NHS England in relation to CCGs, and makes it clear that local devolution settlements do not change the responsibilities of our NHS regulators or their functions in protecting the interests and safety of patients. The provision of the noble Lord, Lord Warner, as amended, protects the integrity of the National Health Service and makes it clear that, whatever devolution arrangements might be agreed with a particular area, the Secretary of State’s core duties in relation to the health service will not be altered. These clear statements in legislation, making provision for the protection of the integrity of the National Health Service, are intended to provide further confidence in future devolution deals. The amendments to the clause give further definition and clarity to support the valuable principles behind the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Warner, and I commend them to the House. Places such as Greater Manchester and London are calling for the ability to design and deliver better health and care services and the ability to make decisions at a level that works best for their communities, either locally or, where it makes more sense, at a regional or sub-regional level. As we know, devolution deals must be tailored to the particular needs and circumstances of a local area. The Bill already allows government to devolve a range of powers and functions currently carried out by Whitehall departments or bodies such as NHS England to a combined authority or a local authority. In seeking to introduce Schedule 3A, which amends the NHS Act 2006, we are now taking the opportunity to make available further options in health legislation for combined authorities and local authorities to work together with clinical commissioning groups and NHS England across a wider area, such as Greater Manchester, to improve integration of services. Crucially, wherever a responsibility for NHS functions is delegated or shared in this way, accountability would remain with the original function holder, whether that is NHS England or a clinical commissioning group. The original function holder would continue to be accountable via the existing mechanisms for oversight which ultimately go up to the Secretary of State. In respect of the arrangements which may be made for the exercise of the Secretary of State’s public health functions, each partner is liable for its own actions and, as with the rest of the health service—both public health and NHS elements—the Secretary of State remains accountable to Parliament. We are seeking to introduce Amendment 45 to provide that the requirements for local authority consent do not apply to regulations revoking previous transfers of health service functions. Noble Lords will be aware also that Amendment 22, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, has spoken, includes a similar provision whereby consent from a combined authority and local authorities is not needed where an order solely revokes a transfer of public authority health functions. These amendments mean that, in the event that it becomes appropriate to restore NHS functions in a local area to NHS bodies, this can be achieved without the need for the consent of the combined authority and local authorities concerned. This reflects the fundamental principle for health devolution in Clause 19—that the Secretary of State for Health’s key responsibilities for the NHS will remain unchanged in any devolution arrangements. We would envisage using the powers to revoke only in circumstances where it was clear that duties and standards such as those referenced in Clause 19 were not being met, and that revoking the transfer was the best option to achieve the necessary improvement in performance. I beg to move.
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Lord Warner (Non-Afl)Crossbench- Quote
- My Lords, I shall speak in a friendly way towards the Minister on his amendments to the amendment that the House was good enough to pass at Third Reading. I cannot guarantee to be quite as friendly towards the Minister on all matters relating to the NHS and social care in future. I suspect that we shall have a good canter around that course on Thursday. What it shows is that this House has an important scrutiny function to perform. I know that we gave the Minister a pretty hard time on this issue, but the Government rather deserved it. I think that it was very foolish for the Government to bring the Bill to this House with the devolution of NHS functions in it without clarity about how that would work in relation to existing NHS legislation, particularly the 2006 and 2012 Acts. I am glad that the Government have seen the error of their ways and I am extremely grateful to the Minister and his colleague, Alistair Burt, for the considerate way in which they discussed with me this set of amendments. I am happy to commend them to the House because they meet the concerns that were expressed at an earlier stage, and I accept the points made by the Minister about the need, very occasionally, to revoke some of these changes. I do not accept the advice from the BMA in its guidance that there should be more safeguards. Given the nature of NHS legislation in this country, it is inevitable that where the Secretary of State sees real damage being done in a local area, he has to step in and make some changes. It is almost inevitable that on the odd occasion that will be necessary, so I am quite happy to support the change proposed by the Minister. This shows the House in a good state in its ability to exercise its scrutiny functions—and, at the time of the Strathclyde report, it does us well to pat ourselves a little bit on the back that we have actually helped the Government improve their legislation.
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- Lord BeechamLabour
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- My Lords, Warner Brothers established a remarkable reputation in the field of entertainment. It would be churlish if the noble Lord, who perhaps no longer counts himself as a brother to some of us on these Benches, was not to be congratulated on effecting a substantive change to the Bill that improves it. Members on all sides will want to join the Minister in paying tribute to the noble Lord’s efforts. As to the rather peculiar route taken by the Government in this matter, I think it became apparent to those of us who attended the meeting chaired by the noble Baroness at which the noble Lord, Lord Prior, was present, together with the silent presence of the Minister for devolution and the northern powerhouse, that at that point there really had been virtually no contact between the relevant departments, notably DCLG and the Department of Health. Clearly matters have improved since then and the House will be grateful to the two Ministers, who I suspect have got together much more effectively than had been possible at that stage. So far as the Opposition are concerned, we welcome the changes that have been made. But questions still remain, some of which I referred to in my earlier speech in relation to the first group, about the position particularly in what are now county areas, where it is conceivable that certain districts may affiliate to combined authorities in an adjacent area. If, for example, there was a situation where there was a district council in Cheshire rather than a unitary, which joined the combined authority—it may or may not; I have no idea what is happening in the north-west, and no doubt my noble friend Lord Smith will enlighten us—and it affiliated for economic purposes with the combined authority and health was then taken over by that combined authority, what would happen to the social care part of the overall concept of health and social care? I do not think that that question has been resolved. It certainly has not been resolved in my mind, but that may be a defect on my part. It would be good to have some enlightenment about that situation.
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- Lord ShipleyLiberal Democrat
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- From these Benches, I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Warner, for the success of all his work and for the determined way in which he made his proposals. It proves the value of this House in the legislative process and demonstrates one of the advantages of our getting a Bill first because some of the scrutiny work was done at that stage. In the context of annual reporting, to which I referred a little while ago, when there is an annual report about the success of NHS devolution, will it not simply reflect the views of the NHS and the combined authorities but the views of all stakeholders in health and social care? It is a very simple thing, in a sense, but it could be easily missed. It would be very helpful to have a response to that request on the record.
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Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)Conservative- Quote
- My Lords, I am sorry I was not here at the beginning of this short debate. I had a meeting with a Minister on another matter. It was my privilege to consider with the noble Lord, Lord Warner, his original amendment. I supported it at that time, although not to the extent of going to the Division when he pressed it. From the answer that my noble friend had given, I believed that Ministers would take account of this. I sensed, possibly rightly, that it had not been very fully considered up to that point. I am glad that it is now being considered. My concern is really the same as that of the noble Lord, Lord Warner. If it is not properly done, this kind of devolution could damage the nationality of the National Health Service, making it local with a postcode lottery according to where you happen to be. The amendment proposed by the Government is different in its way of approaching the matter and has dealt with that in a satisfactory way. I find it difficult to know the position about social care. I understand it is still a local authority responsibility and not for the National Health Service. The difference in funding is important in this connection also. I shall be glad to hear what the Minister has to say in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, on that point and on how the report will deal with the views of stakeholders other than just the central authorities themselves.
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Lord Smith of Leigh (Lab)Labour- Quote
- My Lords, I also support the amendments moved by the noble Lord, and I thank him for his explanation. When the noble Lords introduced the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Warner, they obviously had a suspicion about what was going on in Greater Manchester— understandably so. We heard the phrase “postcode lottery” from the previous noble and learned Lord. One reason why Greater Manchester wants to take control of health is that there is a current postcode lottery. The average outcomes for health in Greater Manchester, despite the efforts of Governments of all persuasions since 1948, have remained doggedly subject to that postcode lottery. We want to use the powers that we can use locally to start to do something about it. With the permission of your Lordships’ House, I shall try to explain what we are doing in Greater Manchester and why we need not fear. It is only 11 months since we signed the original memorandum of understanding with NHS England to share health. The combined authority has not taken control of health; we share responsibility with our health partners. Our number one achievement is to raise the governance. We have 37 different organisations in Greater Manchester with some responsibility for this agenda. I have the dubious task of chairing the strategic partnership board, but colleagues across the piece are working collectively to achieve an outcome. In our collaboration with NHS England, the regulators are being as sympathetic as possible. Already we have seen clinical benefits. We have made sure that every area of Greater Manchester has access to a hub seven days a week so that people can receive medical advice—which was not the case before—and that has continued to expand. We have started to commission collectively more work on public health, recognising that this will be a key to achieving significant change in population health. We set up an organisation called Dementia United, which is going to join all the partners together to look at dementia in terms of acute services, primary care services and social care. In December, we agreed a strategic plan to take us forward for the next few years in Greater Manchester. It complies with all national objectives and reflects the needs of Greater Manchester as a sub-region, but also the localities within Greater Manchester. The focus, first, is on prevention. If we can get people not to need healthcare, that is the best way for people, for the health system and for care. We need to make sure that each locality addresses the issues that exist in those 10 areas of Greater Manchester. There is quite wide variation in provision, as one might expect, between GP services in one area and another. We just got those up to the same level and have made a great improvement. With acute care services, again there is huge variation between the outcomes of hospitals in Greater Manchester. We need to improve that, and we need to give better support both in the clinical and the back-office sense. To fund this, apart from the money we get from the Government, we think we can operate more efficiently and effectively by integrating lots of services; that will be important. We are also grateful to the Government for allowing us an initial injection of funding from the transformation fund. Skilled negotiation on our part and obviously the generosity of the Government meant that we got £450 million from that fund. That will kick-start some major changes in Greater Manchester. The benefits will include better clinical outcomes; we have targets on those. We will make sure that children get to school at the age of five in better health and are more ready for school than they are at the moment. We are supporting the elderly so that they can live longer in their own homes. This is not just about health, however. If we can start to improve the health of people in Greater Manchester, it will reduce some of the barriers to employment and help us to get more people into work. The next step, obviously, will be better engagement with the public and, crucially, with the staff across both NHS and social care. We are making sure that we have detailed implementation plans, so that this does not become a dusty strategic report—one that is very worthy but stays on the shelf—but is actually implemented. The strategy will make a difference, we believe, to the lives of people in Greater Manchester. I should emphasise that, the more I have gone into this, the more I have come to realise that there is no boundary between health and social care. The figures vary, but they say that some 40% of the people who come to see the GP in his surgery are not really seeing him on medical matters but on social matters. For example, they may have housing problems or employment problems, so they are not sleeping at night and need support, and so they come to the doctor for tranquillisers. Some GPs are good at dealing with that; some simply give the tranquillisers. We need to make sure that we start to address the issues that people have and not assume all the time that it must be a medical issue. My noble friend Lord Beecham asked what happens to the areas around Greater Manchester. Obviously, that is not determined, although we have already made a decision on acute provision in Greater Manchester that reflects Derbyshire, because, clearly, many in north-west Derbyshire—in Glossop and so on—look to Greater Manchester rather than elsewhere, and so we clearly need to reflect that. However, such areas would need their own locality plan for what they are doing in that area, working together with all the local health and social care partners. There is a need to reflect that some stuff is done at the regional level, some stuff is done at the sub-regional level and some stuff is done at the local level. Social care is an important element of this. In some parts of Greater Manchester, under the locality plan the acute hospital will run the social care services. In other areas, such as Wigan, we will have a care organisation to ensure that everyone looks at how we can stop people getting ill—that is our main intention—rather than treating them once they are ill. That will vary slightly in different areas, but we will reflect those different localities. We are making good progress and there is great collaboration going on. I thank the Government for the opportunity, and I think we will make a difference.
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- Lord Prior of BramptonConservative
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- My Lords, first, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Warner, for his very friendly comments—long may they continue. As he and other noble Lords have mentioned, this is a good example of the scrutiny provided by this House in ensuring that we have, as my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay mentioned, a truly National Health Service, and that this legislation preserves, rather than undermines, the integrity of the National Health Service, with accountability, after devolution, still clearly with the Secretary of State for Health and to Parliament. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, asked what will happen in the event that things do not work out—I think that was the issue that he raised. The answer is, I think, that it will depend on the negotiations in each individual case. There need to be sensible arrangements from the outset as to what will happen in the event that things do not work out, which the Secretary of State will need to take a view on when agreeing to the deal at the beginning. In a sense, the end game needs to be considered early on in the proceedings. However, I may have missed the point that the noble Lord was making.
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- Lord BeechamLabour
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- That may be partly my fault. My point was not that things might not work out in, for example, the Greater Manchester context; the problem that I raise is the situation that might arise where a district comes out of a county and into a combined authority for certain purposes and that combined authority decides that it wants to deal with health, but the social services provision, unless there is another change, remains with the county within which that district exists. That seems to me the area that has not yet been resolved; it is certainly not clear in my mind and, looking around, I think that there are others whose minds may also be confused by the situation. It is not an easy question for the Minister to answer, and if he is not able to do so, I will understand, but I think that it is a matter that needs to be addressed between the two departments and, if I may say so, in consultation with the local government world as well as the health world, before we get to the point where the situation becomes one where such a risk develops. It is not the case in Greater Manchester, but it may occur elsewhere if we have that movement by county districts into combined authorities for some purposes.
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Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Lab)Labour- Quote
- My noble friend is spot on, but there is an additional complication because that very same district authority will be responsible for housing, including supported housing, which is to some extent under assault, as we may discuss on the second Bill we are considering today, the Welfare Reform Bill. We could have three players here: a combined authority with devolved NHS responsibility; a county council that may or may not be willing in principle to send over some of its social services, such as adult social care; and the district council that remains responsible for the bricks and mortar side, as opposed to the support services side, for, say, the frail elderly, hostels, refuges and the like. There is a real problem about ensuring the consensual structure that we all want to see. We welcome the Government’s responsiveness to the untidiness of geography and of functions, but there are a lot of issues still to be resolved on this score.
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- Lord BeechamLabour
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- I am sorry to intervene again, but from what my noble friend just said it occurs to me that it is not just social care; one has to think about education and children’s services, where there is also a potential dimension. So far, nobody has mentioned that. That is another department that ought to be involved. Of course, we cannot resolve this today, but I urge that the kind of discussions I have mentioned should take place, and I now add the education department to that.
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- Lord Prior of BramptonConservative
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- My Lords, life is untidy, unfortunately. It is never clear and you cannot foresee all eventualities. The only response I can give noble Lords today is that the Secretary of State will deal with each matter on a case-by-case basis. I do not think that anyone can lay down a blueprint for dealing with that now, but I am happy to discuss it with the noble Lord and the noble Baroness if they want to do so. Maybe this is not the right place to go into all of that. I hope that that will be acceptable to them. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, raised the report on the success of devolution. I think I can speak for the Secretary of State for Health in saying that he would want to involve all relevant stakeholders in that report, not least patients, frankly, for obvious reasons. I am happy to put that on the record. I conclude by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Smith, for updating us all on what is happening in Manchester. We on both sides of the House wish Greater Manchester well. It is a trailblazer and a very important development. We hope that we will see more devolution across England while still retaining the central accountability and integrity of the National Health Service.
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- Baroness Williams of TraffordConservative
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- That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 52.
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- Baroness Williams of TraffordConservative
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- My Lords, in moving the Motion I shall speak against the amendment to the Motion, which will be moved by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley. Commons Amendment 52 removes from the Bill Clause 20, which would amend Section 2 of the Representation of the People Act 1983 by lowering the minimum voting age from 18 to 16 for the local government franchise in England and Wales. Accepting Commons Amendment 52 would maintain the status quo on that local government franchise. Through his amendment the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, seeks to change that franchise so that 16 and 17 year-olds could vote in all elections that are based on this local government franchise, including local government elections in England and Wales, police and crime commissioner elections, those for the Greater London Authority and mayor, and elections to the National Assembly for Wales. Sixteen and 17 year-olds would be eligible to vote in local neighbourhood planning referendums, council tax referendums and referendums on local authority governance arrangements. We have discussed the voting age a number of times, and I do not wish to detain this House any longer than may be necessary on this matter. On each occasion we have made the Government’s position clear—that is, we do not believe that it is appropriate to lower the voting age to 16; and even if it was, this Bill would not be the place to make such a change. Moreover, the other place has on two occasions, and by significant majorities, voted in support of its Amendment 52 maintaining the status quo on the local government franchise. The views of the other place are clear, and I believe that on such significant constitutional matters this unelected House should accept the very clear decision of the other place, given the democratic legitimacy that it has. As to the substantive arguments, which we have made clear in earlier debates on this issue, it is at 18 rather than 16 that society generally views a young person as becoming an adult. Furthermore, most democracies consider 18 the right age to enfranchise young people. Only Austria in the European Union has lowered the voting age to 16 for national elections. While accepting that it is entirely right that the issue of the franchise in Scotland is one for the Scottish Parliament, the Scottish experience and position do not provide an example that this Parliament must necessarily follow.
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Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)Liberal Democrat- Quote
- My Lords, I cannot see the Minister’s noble friend Lady Goldie, who led for her party in the Scottish Parliament on this issue and gave enthusiastic backing for lowering the voting age for local government elections in Scotland. Given what the Minister has just said, will she clarify the Conservative Party’s position on the capacity of 16 and 17 year-olds to vote in local government elections? Her party seems to think that it is peculiarly difficult for English 16 and 17 year-olds to vote in council elections but that Scottish 16 and 17 year-olds have that capacity. Therefore, if local elections fell on the same day in Berwick and Berwickshire, the English 16 and 17 year-olds would, in the opinion of the Conservative Party, not have the relevant capacity whereas those in Berwickshire would. Will the Minister explain why that is the case?
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- Baroness Williams of TraffordConservative
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- My Lords, I think I said that the franchise in Scotland was a matter for the Scottish Government, that this unelected House was not the place to discuss the franchise, that this Bill was not the place to discuss the franchise and that the other place had given its very decisive view on the franchise. Those are the main points I am making, not that children in Berwick are less able than children in Glasgow to have this franchise. I am discussing the appropriateness of introducing this measure in this place on this Bill at this time, and urging noble Lords not to support it. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, will withdraw his amendment. It may be appropriate to have a full discussion on the franchise in the round at another time but now is not the time to do it. I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment. Amendment to the Motion on Amendment 52
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- Lord ShipleyLiberal Democrat
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- Leave out “agree” and insert “disagree”.
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- Lord ShipleyLiberal Democrat
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- My Lords, back in July, on Report, this House voted by 221 votes to 154—a majority of 67—that 16 and 17 year-olds should have the right to vote in local elections. When the Bill went to the House of Commons, this decision was reversed and, as a consequence, the matter has returned to this House to be considered once again. I find it strange that so much emphasis is put on citizenship in young people’s education but that the natural extension of this to enable them to vote is a step this Government seem reluctant to take. Ten years ago, the Power commission, funded by the Joseph Rowntree Trust, concluded in its report on how to increase political participation that the voting age should be lowered to 16. It was one of its key recommendations, but it has never been acted on. We cannot complain that younger generations are not engaging with politics when they cannot participate fully. Young people surely have a right to a say in how the communities they live in are run. They use public services locally; they are very politically conscious and we ought to build on that. Crucially, we need to get young people into the way of voting and starting at 18 can be too late, as turnout levels of people under 25 show. Our democracy depends on high levels of participation, and voting at 16 would instil in more young people the habit of voting. We now have the precedent of the Scottish referendum, 16 months ago, when 16 and 17 year-olds were entitled to vote. Although Scotland is outside the scope of the Bill, this precedent has served, in practice, as a pilot and has changed mindsets because it was a clear success. Noble Lords are all aware that votes at 16 has been the subject of ongoing debate in this House since the general election. In recent months, we have had significant debates on the right to vote at 16 in the EU referendum Bill. We asked the Government to rethink their position, but this was reversed in the other place and, by a narrow margin, not pressed further in this House. In the context of that decision on the EU referendum Bill, I have carefully considered whether there is a justification for asking the House of Commons to think again about lowering the voting age in the context of this Bill. For this is a different Bill: it relates to local government, not to a referendum, and I have concluded that there is a case and a justification for doing so. The issue is important: it relates to the nature of our democracy and young people’s engagement with the democratic process. In the House of Commons, on 17 November, the Minister said that: “It is undeniable that there is a debate to be had on the issue”.—[Official Report, Commons, 17/11/15; col. 556.] I agree with him, and I think this House would do so, too. However, it is not clear to me when the Government plan to have that debate. I will listen very carefully to anything further the Minister has to say in response to this debate but, for the moment, I beg to move.
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The Earl of Listowel (CB)Crossbench- Quote
- My Lords, adolescence is a difficult time for all young people, whether they grow up in loving families or not. I remain concerned that the amendment would put an additional burden on adolescents. I am also worried that it would put a target on the back of young people for unscrupulous politicians, which might be unhelpful. Finally, I agree with Barry Sheerman, a very well-respected Labour MP who was, for many years, head of the Education Select Committee in the other place. In recent discussions on the franchise in that place, he talked of his concern about the shrinking of childhood. Many noble Lords support this proposal: I ask them to consult on it with experts in child development. So far, only the Government have referred to the evidence about adolescence. They have referred to neurobiological research into adolescence terminating in the early 20s but, so far, I am not aware of that evidence being referred to by those proposing the amendment.
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Lord Storey (LD)Liberal Democrat- Quote
- The noble Earl mentioned child development experts. Could he name the experts who are saying that it would put a target on the back of 16 year-olds if they were allowed to vote?
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- The Earl of ListowelCrossbench
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- Certainly. In her final paper on adolescence as a development disturbance, Anna Freud, a pioneer of child development, highlighted the challenges which children face as they go through adolescence. In particular, she highlights the burdens which society puts on them in terms of exams and decisions about careers, which may affect their whole life course, at a time when they are trying to move from childhood into adulthood. I refer the noble Lord to that paper. There are child development experts—I know of at least one—who are very much in favour of this and others who are very much opposed to it. I ask those proposing this amendment to find some consensus among these individuals. There would be one further benefit. If those proposing this would consult child development experts on this matter, when people such as myself and others wish to raise the age of criminal responsibility it would make the case for us to say, “We have talked to the child development experts and they all say that 10 is far too low for the age of criminal responsibility. We should raise it”. Noble Lords can set a good example in this matter so I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, might consider withdrawing his amendment.
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Lord Cormack (Con)Conservative- Quote
- My Lords, briefly, I support what the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, has said. He made some extremely telling points, which should certainly be taken into account, but I want to confine my own brief remarks to another point. The elected House has spoken. It has spoken not just once but twice. It has not whispered or murmured but spoken very clearly, with an emphatic majority. At this late stage in the Bill, it is not for us to go into what has so often been called piecemeal constitutional change. It is for us to accept the limitations on our role and power: to concede, above all things, on the franchise to the elected House; to accept that we perfectly properly used the right that this House has to ask Members in the other place to think again. They thought, and they spoke emphatically. We now need to listen.
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- My Lords, I want to speak briefly—
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- Lord Kennedy of SouthwarkLabour
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- My Lords—
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- Lord TylerLiberal Democrat
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- I think that my friend here, the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, would like to follow me. He might like to react to what I have to say. This afternoon the Minister, and indeed others, seem to be again saying, “Yes, one day this will happen but not now”. That is a position which I understand—it is a perfectly reasonable position—but it cannot be repeated and repeated without the Government coming forward and saying when and how. On 18 November, I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, put it very succinctly when he said: “There may come a time for change, when we lower the age to 16. There may be a debate to be had. This is not the moment for that debate”.—[Official Report, 18/11/15; col. 179.] When is it going to be the time for that debate? This is the doctrine of unripe time, which I think I am right in saying that Sir Humphrey was always quoting to Jim Hacker in “Yes Minister”. Whenever they wanted to avoid taking a decision they would say, “We’ll get to it one day. Yes, of course it’ll be important”. But it is not going to be sufficient simply to put this off for ever. The Prime Minister himself has said, as we understand it, to the leader of the Conservatives in the Holyrood Parliament that, yes, there will be an opportunity for the full debate which I think the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, and I will both want to contribute to. When are we going to have that debate? We cannot go on for ever leaving this on the side, as if it somehow does not matter that one part of the United Kingdom adjoining another has a completely different franchise, as my noble friend Lord Purvis said. If this is the United Kingdom, the franchise should be consistent across the United Kingdom. There is also an important issue here about the way in which we discuss these issues in this House. The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, seems to think that it is inappropriate for this House to have any views whatever about elections. I dispute that. During my whole period in this House, we have been able to improve the law in relation to elections in a more dispassionate way than when I was a Member of the other place. It has a special interest in the electoral arrangements, in the Representation of the People Acts and so on. This House has a proper responsibility, a disinterest, which is extremely relevant to important questions about the franchise and the way in which our democracy works. If we give that up it will be an important loss of responsibility and role for this House, and I hope that we will not go down that track. In response, I trust that the Minister will be able to tell us, as the Prime Minister has hinted to his colleagues in the Holyrood Parliament, that there will be an opportunity for the wider debate that Ministers keep telling us is timely and should be happening. If she cannot tell us that, then we are right to make progress in this Bill and move in this direction.
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- Lord Kennedy of SouthwarkLabour
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- My Lords, while I have every sympathy with the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, and with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, I should say right at the outset that if the amendment is pressed to a vote, noble Lords on these Benches will abstain. My party fought the general election last year on a commitment to bring forward legislation to enable 16 and 17 year-olds to vote. We have, on numerous occasions, had debates, asked questions, moved Motions and won votes to advance the cause, but it has fallen on deaf ears on the government Benches. They have shown not the slightest interest in considering this change and I have come to the conclusion that it will probably take a Government of a different political persuasion to bring it about. Not even the enthusiastic support of Ruth Davidson MSP, the leader of the Tory party in Scotland, or of the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, the former leader, has made any difference at all to the government Benches. We will continue to press the case at the appropriate time—the worst thing that the Government have done of course is to deny 16 and 17 year-olds a vote in the referendum on the European Union. The Government and the House of Commons have rejected this proposal repeatedly. We are a revising Chamber. The elected Commons has made a decision, as the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, said, and I do not intend to challenge it further on this occasion. In taking this decision, I am also mindful of the advice from the Electoral Commission about making decisions in a timely manner and the extra work that would be involved in the short space of time before the elections.
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- Lord Purvis of TweedLiberal Democrat
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- Before the noble Lord sits on his hands, is his position on this for the Official Opposition purely tactical? Is it their principled position that 16 and 17 year-olds should have the opportunity to elect local government representatives whenever this Parliament—both Houses, including this House—has an opportunity to give it to them, or is it purely tactical given the weakness of the Official Opposition?
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- Lord Kennedy of SouthwarkLabour
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- We have repeatedly supported the idea of votes for 16 and 17 year-olds. I think noble Lords will find that the position of the noble Lord today is a tactical one.
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- Lord BeechamLabour
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- When it comes to sitting on their hands, few better exponents of that philosophy could be found than those on the Liberal Democrat Benches. They sat on their hands and colluded with the enormous damage inflicted on local government and elsewhere for five years. They are not in any position to lecture us about anything around consistency. Furthermore, it is quite clear that the Government’s unfortunate position on this has been confirmed on three or four occasions in votes at the other end. We are not in a position to change that. Noble Lords on the Liberal Democrat Benches know that it will not change. This is gesture politics of a typical kind and we ought to have nothing whatever to do with it. When we get a change of Government, we will see a change in the voting age, not only for local authority elections but for parliamentary elections, European elections and any future referendums.
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- Baroness Williams of TraffordConservative
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- My Lords, I think I had better quickly break up the fight. When is the right time to have the debate on the franchise? It is most certainly not in a devolution Bill, in the House of Lords, when the House of Commons has voted decisively, on two occasions, to overturn this amendment. As for any arguments in addition to those I have already made, I have nothing much to add other than to back up the points that the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, made at the previous stage of the Bill. The Electoral Commission has also voiced concern about this amendment. Other than that, I have nothing further to add. It is not the time, it is not the Bill and we are not the House to be deciding this.
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- Lord ShipleyLiberal Democrat
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- My Lords, I am very grateful for the contributions that we have had from a number of Members of the House. They have at least helped to inform our thinking. I listened very carefully to the Minister’s reply, which has not added much at all. I conclude two things. First, there was no indication in that reply that the confirmation by the Minister in the other place, James Wharton, in November, that it was undeniable that there is a debate to be had on the issue, will be acted on by the Government. I think that it should be. Secondly, this House supported the lowering of the voting age when it last considered the matter as part of this Bill. I think it is for the House to decide whether it wishes to press the matter further. I hope that it will. It is very important that we should engage young people with the democratic process at an earlier age than 18, and I therefore beg leave to test the opinion of the House.
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Lord Ahmad of WimbledonConservative- Quote
- That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 53.
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- The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport and Home Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)Conservative
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- My Lords, in speaking to Commons Amendment 53 I shall also speak to Amendments 77, 85, 86 and 87. In the summer 2015 Budget, my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer reaffirmed the Government’s commitment to the northern powerhouse, a fundamental part of our plan to deliver a healthy and balanced economy for working people across this United Kingdom. The provisions on sub-national transport bodies—STBs—we are debating today were introduced in the last Session and passed through the other place without amendment. I thank all Members and in particular my honourable friend Andrew Jones for that. These provisions on STBs are a continuation of the revolution going on in the way we govern England. The Government are committed to devolve powers and budgets to boost local growth, which can be seen throughout this Bill. While we are investing record sums in transport across the country—in the north this amounts to £13 billion on transport in this Parliament —we have for far too long accepted that decision-making on that funding has to be made in Whitehall. We need greater local input from those who know their economies best if we want to transform growth in the north and throughout the country. Transport will make a significant difference to that transformation by reducing journey time between the great cities of the north, pooling their strengths and making them greater than the sum of their parts—in short, a northern powerhouse. Transport for the North is already established and is the unified voice of transport in the north of England. We are working with TfN and other transport bodies on road and rail links in the north and on an integrated smart ticketing system akin to the Oyster card we have in London. I also welcome the recent appointments of John Cridland as chair and David Brown as CEO to drive forward progress. My right honourable friend the Chancellor also announced extra funding for TfN in the summer but if we want to see long-term permanence and stability, TfN—and all other STBs—need to be put on a statutory footing. This new clause on sub-national transport bodies will do just that. It creates the legislative framework to allow the Government to set up the first STB, which will be Transport for the North. This will be done by secondary legislation, but other areas could come forward to propose that they are also created as an STB. STBs will initially advise the Secretary of State for Transport on strategic transport schemes and investment priorities in their own area. The Secretary of State may grant individual STBs additional responsibilities around the decision-making and delivery of strategic transport schemes and significant cross-regional schemes such as the work TfN is already undertaking on smart ticketing. There is also the potential to assume more strategic transport responsibilities over time. However, as I have already said, this clause goes further than TfN alone. It provides a way to create STBs across the whole of England, outside London, at the request of local areas. For example, noble Lords will know of the newly strengthened Midlands Connect Partnership, which brings together 26 local authorities and 11 local enterprise partnerships, working with national agencies and government to drive forward improved transport links across the Midlands to power the Midlands engine. Accordingly, it is necessary for TfN, Midlands Connect and all future STBs to be enshrined as statutory bodies with appropriate statutory powers, and I commend the amendment to the House.
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- Lord BeechamLabour
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- My Lords, I cannot really account for it but somehow Part 5A of the Local Transport Act 2008 has managed to escape my notice hitherto. I am interested to see that the Government have decided to incorporate reference to transport infrastructure in the devolution Bill, and that is very welcome, but I am not entirely clear about the scope of the proposals before us. Clearly, I welcome the Commons amendments here but, on the face of it, they appear to relate to Highways England and to rail matters, which of course are very important, but I could not see any reference to such issues as ports and airports as part of the functioning of these transport bodies. Perhaps the noble Lord could advise whether they are included and, if not, say why not. Of course, those of us in the north—the noble Lord has referred to Transport for the North—are very conscious of the huge disparity in the expenditure on transport infrastructure in our part of the country and the vast amounts that have been poured into Crossrail, which we have heard recently is to be further extended. Rather worryingly, it is to go under the block of flats in Balham in which I have a flat. That will no doubt take some time but the disproportion in expenditure is quite remarkable. It is a huge factor and one hopes that it will be redressed. I am not entirely clear about the likely size of these sub-national transport bodies. A lot of the work will serve to connect different parts of the country but in the part of the country that I come from, in particular, we will be looking at cross-country routes to the north-west—to Cumbria and Carlisle from Newcastle and Sunderland and places on the east coast. For the purposes of these bodies, will we not be looking at, for example, simply the combined authority area, because that does not extend beyond the borders of Northumberland and Cumbria? If the area is to go beyond that, what sorts of boundaries will we be looking at? If it does not go beyond that, what mechanism will exist to bring together areas which are not part of the same combined authority?
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- Lord ShipleyLiberal Democrat
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- My Lords, first, I thank the Minister for his briefing note, which I received last week, on the proposals in this amendment for sub-national transport bodies. I welcome the switch in emphasis that he has referred to. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, talked about levels of expenditure and, in particular, the enormous amount that is spent on London and the south-east in comparison with the north of England. Having a sub-national transport body of this kind will be extremely helpful in refocusing the attention of Whitehall on the need to fund the north better than it currently does. Therefore, I thank the Minister for that and I think that the proposals are absolutely right but I want to say two things. The first concerns the question of to whom the sub-national transport bodies will be accountable—in other words, the extent to which the constituent councils of those sub-national bodies will have a regular reporting mechanism. It seems to me very important that there should be a regular means of providing feedback from those councils to the sub-national transport body. Secondly, I hope that the Minister will agree to a system of annual reporting, which occurs elsewhere in the Bill in relation to combined authorities, elected mayors and other matters. Can he confirm that there will also be annual reporting by the sub-national transport bodies? I would find that extremely helpful. My last point relates to the use of the negative procedure as opposed to the affirmative procedure. The Minister will have seen the report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, which challenges the use of the negative procedure. The grounds are that the powers will exist for a limited period of time. The definition of a “limited period of time” does not appear anywhere. Is it a matter of a few months or of two or three years, or is it a matter of something more significant? I hope that the Government might be persuaded of the importance of using the affirmative procedure. Given the scale and magnitude that this proposal represents in reality, I think that using the affirmative procedure would be better than using the negative procedure. Does the Minister have any comments on that?
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- Lord Smith of LeighLabour
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- My Lords, I also welcome these amendments, and I thank the Minister for the way that he has introduced them. Obviously, this is very important activity, and without statutory backing Transport for the North has already had a major in-fight over agreeing the northern franchises for the rail networks that affect all our northern counties. In terms of reporting back, I assure the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, that in the process of franchising we in Greater Manchester have had regular reports from our delegates at Transport for the North. There is accountability for what goes on. I will probably upset the Minister but, while I am on my feet, I will say that one of the great aspects of the deal for devolution in Greater Manchester was the prospect of franchising the buses, which of course account for the vast majority of transport movements in those areas that are involved. I recognise that that will come under separate legislation, a buses Bill, but we still await sight of that Bill and hope that it is not going to be too long.
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- Lord Ahmad of WimbledonConservative
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- My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions. I want to pick up on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Smith, in response to the noble Lord, Lord Shipley. There is accountability, and that accountability is very much to the stakeholders that make up the particular STB. As for the limits or extension of these areas, that will very much be dependent on the local authorities themselves and the collaboration that takes place. The key point I emphasise is one of strategic decision-making, which is the intention behind the creation of such bodies, as we are already seeing with the creation of TfN. Indeed, the reason behind putting TfN on a statutory footing is that the very bodies that make it up have also requested this. I will now pick up some of the questions raised by noble Lords. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, also asked about annual reporting. The legislation makes it clear that STBs shall produce and publish their strategy and updates to that strategy. That can be seen with TfN, which produced its additional reports in March 2015 and has plans for annual updates, the next being in March 2016. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, asked about the extent to which different modes of transport are covered by STBs. The whole essence of sub-national transport bodies will be to cater for all modes of transport within a defined geography, including ports and airports. This can already be seen in the work of TfN, which has set out quite clearly its plans for all modes of transport, including ports and airports. I take on board totally the point the noble Lord made that this is not just about linking up rail and roads; it is about ensuring that, where there are ports and airports, these also form part of the strategic transport strategy for a given geographical region. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, also asked about the size of STBs. As I have already said, it is really up to the local areas to come forward with proposals; it is about bringing together local authorities. There may be some traditionally defined areas, but it is about how local authorities can come together and collaborate across traditional borders to ensure the best result for a particular region. In terms of the requirements, there must be two appropriate authorities to form an STB.
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- Lord BeechamLabour
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- A particular authority or area might want to belong to two such networks. For example, one can see clearly that there is a case for the north-east and Cumbria coming together on the horizontal routes. Equally, Cumbria might want to go south towards my noble friend Lord Smith and vice versa. Is it possible to belong to two such networks?
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- Lord Ahmad of WimbledonConservative
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- It is dependent on how the STB proposals come back. However, in practice, I cannot see a deterrent to that because this is about providing strategic links. I am sure all noble Lords will welcome a linking up between the noble Lords, Lord Beecham and Lord Smith, on strategic transport arrangements. The idea behind this is to empower local authorities to make the right decisions for their particular area. As to specific local authorities belonging to two networks through legislation, what would happen in the scenario painted by the noble Lord is that if a local authority is already part of an STB, there is nothing stopping that local authority, after the creation of a new STB, being co-opted on to the other to ensure that that strategic link is operational. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, referred to placing a limit on the period for regulations. The very nature of the temporary transfer of functions is that there will be a clearly limited interim time for this. If a temporary transfer of functions works well and there is evidence to show that there would be value in effecting a permanent transfer, there would be further regulations to ensure that that could take place. I hope I have answered the questions that have been raised.
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- Lord Smith of LeighLabour
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- Could the Minister comment on the buses Bill and when we are likely to see it?
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- Lord Ahmad of WimbledonConservative
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- I raised the issue of the buses Bill when I was being briefed for this Bill. I know that it is being drafted and we are looking for appropriate parliamentary time to ensure that we can introduce it at the earliest opportunity. I again thank all noble Lords for their support for the amendment.
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- Lord Mackay of ClashfernConservative
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- I think new Section 102T deals with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, about requiring affirmative resolution for the generality of regulations under this provision.
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- Lord Ahmad of WimbledonConservative
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- As ever, my noble and learned friend is correct.
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- Baroness Williams of TraffordConservative
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- That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 54.
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- Baroness Williams of TraffordConservative
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- My Lords, this will be my last opportunity to thank all noble Lords who have been involved with this devolution Bill. From my point of view it has been a very constructive process. It is my first Bill and I have rather enjoyed it, given the debates that we have had. I now beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 54. I shall speak also to Amendment 77 in relation to the general power of competence for national parks. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord De Mauley for bringing this issue to my attention. He and I met the national park authorities on 23 July to discuss the matter. Alas, this was after the Bill had left this House, so we sought to resolve the issue by amending the Bill in another place. Amendment 54 confers new general powers on national park authorities in England similar to those conferred on, among others, fire and rescue authorities and integrated transport authorities in Chapters 2 and 3 of Part 1 of the Localism Act 2011. These new powers for national park authorities can be described as a functional power of competence. The new powers allow an authority to act as an individual could, with certain limitations, in relation to the functions that an authority has. For example, the powers will allow a national park authority to act through a company and to trade in a broader way than it currently can. National park authorities have asked for this power as they consider it will enable them to act in a more entrepreneurial and innovative way. They believe they will be in a better position to enter into partnerships that will support growth across our rural economy. For example, it will enable them to work in partnership with other bodies more proactively on the rollout of broadband, and to make a contribution towards the implementation of broadband infrastructure. Jim Bailey, the chair of National Parks England, has said: “We are pleased to see the Government introduce this amendment. This will help National Park authorities to maximise opportunities to fulfil our statutory purposes”. It is important, though, to understand that a power of competence does not override existing legislation, so national park authorities will continue to be bound by their statutory purposes of conserving and enhancing the natural beauty, wildlife and cultural heritage of an area and promoting opportunities for the understanding and enjoyment of its special qualities. The statutory framework of protection and consent will remain unchanged, and in using their new powers, the park authorities cannot promote or permit activities that are incompatible with these statutory purposes. The power will not be used to encourage or permit too much or inappropriate development in national parks. It is also important to be clear that this power will not be used by national park authorities as an opportunity for them to start charging entry to national parks. All but a very small percentage of land in national parks is owned privately—this is an important point—not by the national park authorities, and therefore they have no legal basis for doing so.
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Lord Deben (Con)Conservative- Quote
- My Lords, can my noble friend give an assurance that these new powers, which are no doubt welcome, will not be used by park authorities to enable them unfairly to compete with people within the parks? Unfortunately, some national parks have behaved in a pretty high-handed way. I think that happens less now than when I was Secretary of State, when I had to deal with such cases. I just want to make sure that the new powers cannot be used in a non-competitive way.
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- Baroness Williams of TraffordConservative
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- My Lords, there has been much speculation about what these powers might mean in respect of fracking and so on. The whole purpose of the amendment is to give park authorities the scope to be more innovative, rather than to act in an unduly competitive way with each other. The part of government Amendment 77 that amends Section 65 of the Environment Act 1995 is minor and technical and contains the amendments consequential on government Amendment 54. I hope that noble Lords will feel able to accept the amendment.
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- Lord BeechamLabour
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- My Lords, this amendment is welcome and has been warmly supported by the national parks authorities, although I understand that there was some slight misunderstanding about that on the part of the Opposition in the House of Commons. Certainly, we want to endorse the sentiments of the noble Baroness about the potential for each national park authority. Of course, I come from a part of the world where there is a remarkable national park, and it occurs to me that the Government might want to facilitate a close relationship between combined authorities such as the one in the north-east and, I suspect, the one in the Sheffield area with the Peak District National Park, so they can collaborate in a way that perhaps was not possible before. It would of course be a matter for the authorities, rather than for legislation, but it is something the Government might encourage. One matter that was raised in the House of Commons was clarified at the time by the Minister, but I invite the noble Baroness to repeat the assurance that nothing in this proposal would facilitate the adoption of fracking in any national park area—that is, that it would not be open to a national park authority to allow such a development. It would be good to have it on the record in your Lordships’ House as well as in the Commons.
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- Lord ShipleyLiberal Democrat
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- My Lords, I welcome the proposal for the national parks. As with the rest of the Bill, a regular review of how this power is being used would be welcome, and I am sure we will have that. We thank the Minister for her leadership on the Bill. It has been seven months since we began the process, which we have found rewarding. Although from time to time there have been differences—some still remain—the truth is that the outcome is in the interests of stronger government at the sub-regional and local level in England, and I welcome that. We will see how it goes over the next few years, but I am very optimistic that the groundwork put in by the Minister and her colleagues during this Parliament and the last one is going to bear fruit.
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Lord Judd (Lab)Labour- Quote
- My Lords, National Parks England, which is the umbrella body for the park authorities, is making no secret of the fact that it positively welcomes this amendment and sees great opportunities in it. I have one anxiety on which I would like an assurance, but I suspect that it comes at a slightly different angle from that of the noble Lord, Lord Deben. There is sometimes a subjective dividing line between commercialisation of the parks and using commercial opportunities to strengthen their purposes. Elsewhere in legislation the Government have, to their credit, stood firmly by the definition of what national parks are. They are not areas which are ripe for commercial exploitation; rather they are areas in which sensible co-operation between the park and other authorities could do a great deal to strengthen the authority and enhance the well-being of the people in the community. But the purpose of the park is to enable more people from all ethnic groups in Britain to appreciate the contrast of beauty, landscape and all the rest. I suspect that the Minister is 100% on my side on this, but I would like an assurance that this undoubtedly important amendment, containing as it does such great advances, will not be allowed to become an excuse for commercialisation, in the wrong sense, of the parks at the expense of their real purpose.
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- Lord BeechamLabour
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- My Lords, I appear to have failed to notice that we are dealing with the last group of amendments. Obviously I want to join the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, in thanking the Minister for her charming and helpful approach to legislation—this will do her reputation as a Minister no good at all—and to thank the members of the Bill team, who have always been helpful and approachable. That has been the case right from the start, I believe, some nine months ago when the Bill was conceived and has now been delivered in its final shape. It bears a great deal to the way in which the noble Baroness and her colleagues have assisted Members from all sides of the House.
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- Baroness Williams of TraffordConservative
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- I thank the noble Lords, Lord Beecham and Lord Shipley, for their kind words. All three noble Lords have talked about the power of collaboration between authorities while not under- mining what the original intent of the national park functions is. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Judd, that the new power of functional competence does not change the statutory duty and purpose of the park authority; I can give him an absolute assurance on that. I can also assure the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, that nothing in the proposal facilitates fracking. I think I gave that assurance to my noble friend Lord Deben. It might help him if I read the provisions of new Clause 65C to be inserted under Amendment 54. It states: “The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision preventing an English National Park authority from doing under section 65A(1) anything which is specified, or is of a description specified, in the regulations”. The Secretary of State has the power to make sure that the checks and balances are in place for a national park’s priorities and functions to be protected. I think that I have answered all points made by noble Lords and I thank them for the enjoyable experience that this Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill has been.
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- Baroness Williams of TraffordConservative
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- That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 55 to 87.
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