Report stage in the Lords
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Lord SkelmersdaleConservative- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 51:
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Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour- Quote
- My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for moving his amendment, which would make regulations under Clauses 8 through 14 subject to affirmative resolution. As he acknowledges, that is a restriction on the amendment that he moved in Committee.
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- My Lords, it is an enormous restriction.
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- Well, my Lords, we shall see quite how significant the restriction is. The scrutiny of legislation is a very important subject. However, I continue to disagree with the way forward that the noble Lord’s amendment suggests. As noble Lords are aware, we have provided draft regulations to the House under Clauses 8, 9, 10, 11 and 13. The regulations under Clause 12 are subject to affirmative procedure on their first use; that is quite right, given that mandatory work-related activity will be a step beyond Pathways to Work-style conditionality. On other clauses in Part 1, we have accepted the recommendations of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee on the regulations that should be subject to affirmative procedure. On the clauses covered by the amendment, the committee did not make recommendations and specifically noted in its report the number of draft regulations that the Government have made available. I do not believe that it is necessary for regulations under Clauses 8 to 14 to be subject to affirmative resolution, given the steps that we have taken and the reassurances that we have given. The amendment goes further and would have all sets of regulations under the clauses now and forevermore subject to affirmative resolution. Small changes in regulations are necessary to ensure that policy is effective and works. When necessary, this can mean learning from experience and altering procedures as appropriate. Making all regulations subject to affirmative procedure would require debates in both Houses on regulations that, for example, made small changes to notification requirements or the test applied before deferring an interview. That could be counterproductive, in delaying changes that were needed to improve service to our customers. As for the number of regulations that the amendment would cover, we have 15 regulation-making powers, but that could result in something like 100 regulations in all. I am sure that even the noble Lord would accept that that would be a considerable burden on Parliament’s time. It is always good fun to be in his company when debating these matters, but one can have too much of a good thing—and I suggest that the 100 regulations subject to an affirmative procedure that would result from this amendment would be a little more than a good thing. On that basis, I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment. In doing so, I am very happy to sit with him and ask officials between now and Third Reading to take him in a bit more detail through what might be involved with the 100 regulations that he suggests should be affirmative. That might help to engender a broader understanding of the flavour of the regulations and the small movements that some of them might contain.
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- My Lords, that offer is most gratefully accepted, but I am concerned about the Minister’s use of the words “small changes”, because with some of the regulations the changes are likely to be far from small; in fact, they might be quite extensive. Certainly, as the Minister says, the Government will learn from experience as this all beds down, which is the point of the five-yearly report that we agreed to a few hours ago. I am surprised to hear that there may be as many as 100 regulations in all, when I cited 15 that would, as I saw it, be involved in this change. As I said, I do not think that 15 regulations would be excessive, given that many would be debated together. Arguably, 100 regulations would be excessive, but I will have to ascertain how linked they happened to be and whether they would be likely to be debated together and available for debate on the same day, which is sometimes another factor in our consideration of regulations. I shall withdraw the amendment, but again reserve my right to raise it again at Third Reading should I feel it necessary. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- moved Amendment No. 52:
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- 20:45
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- My Lords, as the Minister said, these are extremely technical amendments. Perhaps he would care to look at paragraph 11 of Schedule 4. I have done a little analysis of Amendments Nos. 71 to 78, which totally redraft the paragraph from the beginning of line 5 to the end of line 15. I note that the amendments would insert the words “an award of” three times, in sub-paragraphs (a), (b) and (c). Surely it would be more appropriate for Amendment No. 71 to alter line 5 to state, “‘existing award’ means an award of”, followed by sub-paragraphs (a), (b) and (c). This would save six words on the statute book. We all try at all times to limit the statute book to the purposes for which the various Acts of Parliament are designed. I would have no complaint if the Minister decided to remove at Third Reading the whole of paragraph 11 and show us a Keeling schedule, which would make life a lot simpler. I agree with Amendments Nos. 52 to 56, but I am confused by Amendment No. 57. Why does income support suddenly appear? Amendment No. 58 relates to migration. I have covered the other amendments, except for Amendment No. 69. That amendment will leave out sub-paragraph (4), which defines “existing award”, from paragraph 7 of Schedule 4. Why is this necessary?
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his points. On his suggestions about the drafting of these amendments, in my short time in your Lordships’ House, I have learnt to subject myself to the wisdom of parliamentary counsel. I will pass on those comments to see whether counsel wish to offer alternative drafting, but I would not hold my breath on that. The noble Lord was asking about Amendment No. 57, which provides that the claim for ESA be treated as a claim for incapacity benefit, income support or severe disablement allowance as part of the transition arrangements. I think that that touches on the point about where claims might come in at a point of transition, when there is an opportunity to migrate people on to ESA. That is the thrust of the amendment. However, rather than prevaricating on this matter, I ought to revert in more detail to the text.
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- My Lords, before the Minister sits down, would he agree to write to me on those various points? I realise that I have rather bounced him. To an extent, I have rather bounced myself in these questions. However, these sorts of amendments often go through without any comment at all. That is a bad precedent to set and I am not going to set it.
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- My Lords, the noble Lord has been assiduous in pursuing these details. He is quite right. I am sure that these technical amendments generally go through on the nod. I am happy to write to him in more detail and to expand on the focus of that amendment—or that part of the group of amendments. Would he specify again whether there are any further provisions, so that we can ensure that those are covered when we write to him?
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- My Lords, my three questions were about Amendment No. 57, about paragraph 11 in total and about why leave out sub-paragraph (4) on page 76.
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- My Lords, I undertake to write to the noble Lord on those. On Question, amendment agreed to.
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- moved Amendments Nos. 53 to 68:
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Lord Low of DalstonCrossbench- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 68A:
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- My Lords, this amendment allows me to probe how ESA will affect claimants currently receiving benefits other than incapacity benefit. We have already spoken a little about carers, and the Minister was able to give us some good news on that. My concern now is lone parents. Lone parents who receive income support, with or without a disability premium, are not subject to any conditionality. They are not expected to move towards work readiness, but instead are given the support necessary to be full-time parents. However, that does not appear to be the case under ESA. We have heard of no exemptions that will apply to lone parents in the work-related group. Presumably that means that a lone parent with a young child will be expected to engage in work-related activities that under other benefits systems would not be required. The options available, therefore, will again presumably be to move on to the higher level of benefit at which we have been assured ESA will be set or to remain on a lower level of benefit but be free from conditionality. Can the Minister confirm whether that will be the case, and, if so, can he reassure us that the decision-maker will be sympathetic to the non-health-related requirements that such a situation may put on a claimant? Will a failure to find adequate childcare be considered a good cause to miss a work-related activity? As far as I am aware, the draft guidance makes no mention of that sort of situation. It is most important that we hear how the Minister intends it to work. I therefore congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Low, on producing this amendment, which has enabled me to tack on a little extra to what was originally intended.
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Low, for giving us a chance to talk about these important issues and for giving the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, a chance to raise some items in an amendment that he either has not moved or has yet to move. The amendment to Schedule 4 would remove the power to terminate the existing benefit of customers migrating to ESA in particular circumstances. I understand that the thrust of this is as a probing amendment, so that the noble Lord can get the answers that he seeks to the points raised. I would like to respond to the noble Lord’s specific questions around transitional protection. As we have said, all existing customers will have their cash level of benefit protected, provided that they continue to meet the entitlement conditions to the employment and support allowance. That applies to any customer on existing incapacity benefits, whether incapacity benefit, severe disablement allowance or income support paid on the grounds of disability or incapacity, and whatever their original route on to these benefits, such as former invalidity benefit customers. The noble Lord also asked about those existing customers who could fail to satisfy the new PCA. We are obviously still reviewing and testing the new PCA. Once this has finished we will be in a better position to say what the most appropriate stage to introduce it for existing customers is. We expect that it will be at the first PCA review following migration on to ESA. The new PCA has been designed to assess whether a person has a limited capability for work, which is a condition of entitlement to ESA for all new and existing customers. People who do not satisfy the test will therefore not be entitled to ESA. We believe that this is right and proper. That is because the new PCA has been designed by medical experts to accurately assess people’s health conditions. It would be unfair for existing customers not to be subject to the same conditions of entitlement as everyone else. This amendment to Schedule 4 relates to our powers around migration of existing customers to employment and support allowance. As we have shown in the amendments already debated, we have been considering Schedule 4 very closely to ensure that we have the appropriate powers to successfully achieve our aims for the migration of existing customers over time, and as resources allow. The reason for this is that the migration of existing customers is a large and complex undertaking. Making sure that the new process is bedded down beforehand will ensure that the migration is as smooth as possible and reduce the risks around such a large project. We wish to learn from our operational experience here. Schedule 4 is designed so that we can respond effectively to changing circumstances—for example, learning from operational experience in the period of transition for existing customers following the introduction of employment and support allowance. Removing powers in Schedule 4 removes our ability to adapt to circumstances that cannot be foreseen. It would not be appropriate for us to remove this power and risk being unable to respond to changing circumstances. The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, asked whether lone parents would be required to attend work-focused interviews as an ESA customer. The answer is yes, if they were an ESA customer. However, their caring responsibilities will be taken into account by personal advisers when they arrange interviews. They will be able to defer interviews if the deferral test is satisfied. I stress that some lone parents will continue to be able to choose whether they remain on income support. If their only route is incapacity, ESA would be the route available to them. If they wish to access income support as lone parents. they also have that choice. They can make a judgment as to the value of the benefits and the conditionality, and the support that is offered by the two streams. I reiterate that to the noble Lord, Lord Low. Not unreasonably, his questions focused on levels of benefit, but we should recognise that the new system is one which provides significant support for people which was not there before. We have to look at the balance of the package. That support seeks to enable people to move into work or closer to work, to eventually meet their aspirations as individuals. Those aspirations have been denied and neglected for too long. That is what the new system is about. You have to look at the balance of the allowances together with the support that will come with the new ESA regime. I hope that that has dealt with the questions from the noble Lord, Lord Low, but I will be happy to answer further if he feels that I have missed some points.
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- Lord Low of DalstonCrossbench
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- My Lords, that is encouraging and reassuring. I draw particular comfort in relation to my first and third questions from the Minister’s assurance that people will be migrated on a protected income equivalent to their existing cash benefit. The sting in the tail came when he said, “provided that they qualify for ESA”, although there was further assurance when he said that the assessment of whether they continued to qualify for ESA would come at the first review after migration. I understood that to mean that there would be migration on existing cash benefit, which would be subject to review at a later stage. These are technical matters, so I will reserve judgment until tomorrow, when I have studied carefully all the Minister’s words. For now, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- moved Amendments Nos. 69 to 80:
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Lord BestCrossbench- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 81:
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Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove BayNon-affiliated- Quote
- My Lords, what a powerful case that was. I have little to add to it. We debated this at some length in Grand Committee, and the noble Lord has drawn to considerable extent, as I would have done in my speech, on the Citizens Advice and Shelter briefing. We also very much welcome the support of the other organisations, some of which I mentioned in Grand Committee. The best estimate is that this would cost £10 million a year. That is a very modest sum to rectify what Tony Blair, John Prescott and John Hutton, among others, agreed was an injustice before they came to power. I shall probe the Minister in a little more detail on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Best. In the past few days, the Department for Communities and Local Government—D-CLoG, as it is called—has published a policy briefing that states: “The Government is currently looking at this issue in the context of the Welfare Reform Bill”. What does that mean? We did not see a hint of concession in Committee. Is the DWP looking at it by putting a telescope to its blind eye? If it is raising false hopes by this, that would be worse than not raising them at all. I shall leave it there, but I encourage the noble Lord, Lord Best, to have the courage of his convictions.
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Baroness Hollis of HeighamLabour- Quote
- My Lords, this has been a problem for many years. We have made some movement on the shared room rent philosophy over the years, but there is a problem of supply and demand. We have all had hundreds of cases reported to us of young people who have to top-slice their income support or JSA, let alone their disability benefits, to be able to afford accommodation that is not fully covered by housing benefit. There is undeniably a problem. I have two difficulties with the solution proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Best, which is to bring the age for going on to housing benefit support, or the new housing allowance support, for self-contained accommodation down from 25 to 21. First, there is a problem of work incentive, partly because housing benefit and its tapers are the elephant in the room on all welfare reform policies by virtue of the very steep tapering effect. This is not particularly germane to the argument made by the noble Lord, Lord Best, but we know that where council estates have gone over to being housing associations on the grounds that in housing associations people are in work, the people who are transferred on housing benefit remain out of the labour market because it is so expensive for people on the minimum wage to leapfrog into making work pay. I would not like to attach a figure to that problem. Secondly, there is the big-ticket number. The noble Lord, Lord Best, said that the cost of providing for those over 21 to go into self-contained accommodation would be £10 million. My difficulty is that for a lot of social security there is a fulcrum at 25. IS is set at a higher rate for those aged 25 and over, as is JSA. If one were to bring the fulcrum for housing benefit down from 25 to 21, it would be difficult not to argue that IS and JSA rates should follow; otherwise, there would be major disjunctions between rent and income levels and whether a claimant was supposed to be in an independent household. I do not have a clue what the figure would be, but I suspect it would be around £200 million or £400 million. I am guessing because I have done no work on that estimate, but I suspect it would be a big-ticket number to bring the read-across benefits down to the same fulcrum. Having said that, I do not think any of us would feel comfortable walking away from this amendment, so I shall press my noble friend on the discretionary housing payments scheme. It has existed for a number of years and is a central government grant to local authorities to allow them to top up people’s housing benefit and council tax for a good reason, such as because they are vulnerable, pregnant or have a very large family. Very many of the young people to whom the noble Lord, Lord Best, referred ought to count as vulnerable and to be eligible for such a fund. There is no reason why that should not be the case since, as I say, some local authorities spend all their money and some spend only 10 per cent of it. It is completely random and most people do not even know about it. I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Best, and others might feel that this is a reasonable way forward but, as we publicise the new local housing allowance scheme, could we ensure that all the literature makes reference to the discretionary housing payments scheme for those who may be considered vulnerable and that local authorities are circularised with this? Could my noble friend review the adequacy of the fund in the light of that? I cannot remember how much it was; while I have a feeling that it was about £25 million, it could well have gone up by now. That might be a way forward, giving a tailored help to those who need it without it becoming a big-ticket item for the whole field of social security. We have a real problem, but the solution that the noble Lord, Lord Best, suggested is possibly too big for this amendment, given the implications both for work incentives and the social security budget. I believe that there is another way of dealing with it, so could my noble friend help us on that?
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- Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove BayNon-affiliated
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- My Lords, the noble Baroness was probably not in Grand Committee when we discussed this exact point. The problem was that this benefit runs out in many areas well before the end of the year. Unless more money is put into it, I do not believe it will be a solution. Perhaps the noble Baroness would comment on that.
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- Baroness Hollis of HeighamLabour
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- My Lords, I entirely accept that some local authorities will quickly spend over 100 per cent; others underspend. Yet through this cost-limited and cash-constrained vehicle the local authorities in which there is need could be targeted, as it is known where the need is. The problem could be redressed in that way.
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The Earl of ListowelCrossbench- Quote
- My Lords, I strongly support my noble friend’s amendment. It can be difficult for a young person to find a home. Let us take for example a typical group of young people from Centrepoint. A 17 year-old tells me that when she first moved out of home she moved into a bed and breakfast in Earl’s Court. There was no lock on her door, and a man in his 40s kept hanging around immediately outside it. An 18 year-old tells me that he was placed in a bed and breakfast after leaving custody. No support was offered and he soon found himself on the street. We are discussing over-21s now, yet when the Centrepoints, YMCAs and foyers cannot find move-on accommodation for their older young people then they cannot offer support to their younger ones. They are silted up, as the noble Lord, Lord Best, said. The YMCA states that it cannot find move-on accommodation for 35 per cent of its young people. I do not wish to patronise young people in their early 20s; three-quarters of those in employment share with other people. Some of those currently out of work will find it difficult to share. For many, that will be due to shortage of supply, while for others it will perhaps be due to a poor upbringing that leaves them ill equipped to co-operate with others. Of those who find a flat, many will have difficulty managing their money. The single room rent will exacerbate those problems; the young person’s tenancy may collapse, and they may be crushed by having failed in something in which they had so deeply invested themselves. Critically, the DWP’s own research report No. 243, Research into the Single Room Rent Regulations, published in 2005, highlighted: “The restrictions that the SRR places on young claimants’ ability to access private rented housing is preventing many from finding any private rented sector accommodation within their means. This, combined with the widely reported reluctance of many landlords to let to young people, appears to have resulted in a situation where many young people enter informal lettings or end up using ‘friends’ floors’”. The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, made that exact point at Second Reading and it has been made again this evening. We often do a poor job in this country of nurturing our children. The behaviour of some of them leaves our rate of child custody high above those of our neighbours. This February, we have the highest recorded number of children in custody of any February. I strongly support this amendment, which would also benefit young people in care whose exemption runs out at age 22. I am particularly keen to be reassured that the Department for Work and Pensions and the Department for Communities and Local Government are co-operating closely on enabling young people to gain a secure home base so that they can find and sustain work and become fully independent adults. Will the Minister consider meeting the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, his opposite number from the Department for Communities and Local Government, soon to discuss this matter? Were it helpful, I am sure that my noble friend and I would be glad to attend such a meeting. I strongly support the amendment, and I hope that the Minister will accept it.
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Lord NorthbourneCrossbench- Quote
- My Lords, I support the Government in wanting to save the taxpayer money. Indeed, I also support them in wanting to reduce young people’s dependence on the state. However, I also support the amendment because, on the evidence, the single room rent, or whatever it is called now, is simply not working. It is also damaging young people, particularly vulnerable and excluded young people. The poor socialisation of young people in this country today is covered by the recent UNICEF report on the well-being of children in rich countries. It cannot be a matter of pride for any of us that this country comes 21st out of 21 European countries which the report looked into. I know that that report has defects, but its findings are confirmed by recent reports by the IPPR and others that have come out in the past two or three years. Housing is a key factor in the socialisation of young people, particularly the disadvantaged and excluded. Such young people need help, not additional problems. For that reason, I support the amendment.
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Best, has no need to apologise for tabling an amendment at this hour, particularly as he spoke on the matter with lots of knowledge and clear commitment. As has been acknowledged, the amendment is something of a compromise between the current rates and the complete abolition of the single room rent, or shared room rate. In Committee, we discussed the rationale for having the single room rent cut-off at age 25, as the lower average earnings for those under 25 limits the type of housing that someone in this age group can afford. The noble Lord is right to note that the adult rate for the national minimum wage is set for those aged 22 and older. The national minimum wage and the social security system share the same aim of increasing employment. However, it is important to note the difference between the two. The national minimum wage is intended to make work pay, but has a lower rate for those under 22 to ensure that young people are attractive to employers. The social security system, and therefore housing benefit, is intended to reflect an individual’s needs but not to create a disincentive to move into work, a point touched on by my noble friend Lady Hollis. This leads us to consider again the fundamental principles behind the single room rent. In Committee, the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, spoke about the difficulties that some of the most disadvantaged young people in society face. He spoke of the perilous cycle of exclusion that may begin when a young person is denied the safe and secure upbringing from which many people benefit. Last Monday, I had the opportunity to meet the noble Lord, Lord Best, to discuss some of these issues further. I reassure the House that the Government share his concerns for young people. This is the age at which many young people complete their transition to adulthood. It is vital that the Government play their part to help them start adulthood in the best possible way. One of the principles behind the single room rent is fairness for working people. When 75 per cent of those who are under 25, single, without dependants and not receiving benefit live in shared accommodation, there is the principle that those who rely on housing benefit should expect only the same. More importantly, however, we do not want to put young people into a position in which they become dependent on benefits. If we were to abolish the single room rent for all or part of the group to whom it applies, we would extend the benefit trap for many more people. Those who might previously have found suitable shared accommodation would now be able to live in larger, more expensive self-contained accommodation, which would mean that they would have to earn a greater amount before being able to move off housing benefit and its taper and fully benefit from every additional pound that they earned. So the culture of benefit dependency would be extended. Instead of housing benefit providing an initial levelling platform for young people, it would provide another route of exclusion and dependence on the state, damaging future job and wage expectations. The noble Lord rightly spoke about the experience of the shared room rate and the local housing allowance pathfinders. We have learnt from this experience, and for national roll-out we will be using a different, broader definition of what can be counted as shared accommodation—I think the noble Lord, Lord Best, acknowledged this—and changing to the use of the median to calculate rates, which will help to address some of the problems of affordability reported. The noble Lord, Lord Best, suggested that the drop in the number of houses in multiple occupation, with its share of the whole rental sector decreasing from 9 per cent to 6 per cent, was measured over only two quarters and that therefore the time span was too short to link to any policy change. The local housing allowance evaluation has found that the proportion of landlords providing some shared accommodation remained about the same, despite a high degree of churn in the ownership of this type of accommodation. The noble Lord, Lord Best, suggested that landlords are unwilling to let to single room rent customers. There are many factors influencing who landlords let to. Two of the groups which landlords least like letting to are young people and benefit customers, but this is symptomatic of wider stigma and stereotypes. Abolishing the single room rent is unlikely to fix this. However, making local housing allowance payments to tenants is a step in the right direction. There is some indication from the pathfinders that customers on local housing allowance have been able to mask from their landlord that they are receiving benefit. We should recognise that many more vulnerable customers are eligible for social-sector accommodation, and the groups exempt from the single room rent include certain care leavers under 22. The noble Lord acknowledged, in relation to those who are severely disabled and those in the social sector, that the single room rent has only ever applied to private rented sector cases. Again, the noble Lord, Lord Best, talked about the cost of changing the arrangements. Twenty per cent represents the cost of moving existing claimants under 25 into the over-25 rate of benefit. If the cut-off point were under 21 the cost would be half of that, but that assumes that there is no behavioural change. In particular, it assumes that one does not have to go further and align the change to the benefits system more generally, as my noble friend Lady Hollis pointed out—the 25 per cent threshold is relevant for income support and jobseeker’s allowance. It was suggested that those who lose their job must downsize, but the data show that 75 per cent of working people live in shared accommodation and therefore many would not downsize. This is the rationale behind the single room rent. My noble friend Lady Hollis raised the issue of discretionary housing payments, which, as the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, said we debated at Committee. I am advised that only in the very early years did any local authority spend anywhere near its discretionary housing payment limit. That is the centrally provided bit and the proportion that they can use from their own funding. I can assure my noble friend Lady Hollis that we are updating the guidance on the DHPs to ensure that it continues to assist local authorities to make full use of the discretionary scheme. Obviously we cannot dictate to local authorities precisely how they proceed but working with them is quite important. The noble Lord, Lord Best, talked about what was happening in the housing market. He said there had been an explosion in the number of small, self-contained flats and a dearth of shared accommodation. Would the impact on market rents not be an equalisation of those two parts of the housing sector? If there is a lot of self-contained accommodation, I presume that, all other things being equal, the price goes down and that, if there is a dearth of shared accommodation, all other things being equal, the price goes up. That must have an impact on the situation. I am sure that we will not readily reach a consensus on this issue tonight, but I have set out the Government’s position, which I believe to be the correct one, and urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
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- Lord BestCrossbench
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- My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, and my noble friends Lord Listowel and Lord Northbourne for their support. I thank also the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, who is such an expert in these matters. She raised the issue of not opening the door to the big ticket cost of having to shift jobseeker’s allowance and income support rates from the age of 25 to 21 as a consequence of allowing this amendment. The Government do not have to change all the benefits because this one stands out in need of reform. It would be possible to change one benefit at a time if that is required by the marketplace. The noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, made the point that local authorities have discretion to make extra payments to vulnerable housing benefit claimants. It is extremely important that good advice is given to local authorities to make full use of this discretionary housing payments system. I am very pleased to hear from the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, that such guidance is being prepared. As president of the Local Government Association I know that I should not support ring-fenced funds—I would get into big trouble—and it is probably not a route for this problem that would lead to a satisfactory conclusion. I am grateful for the response from the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, but it does not encapsulate the realities of the marketplace. While it would be good for people to choose shared accommodation in preference to a self-contained flat and therefore become less dependent on the higher level of benefit that they would have to accept in a self-contained apartment, the realities are that the people we are talking about will not find flats to share with young professionals and others which they can enter. It is not an alternative or an option. The alternative is homelessness or living on other people’s sofas and moving from house to house, which is the predicament in which we place so many people already. This is a matter of considerable significance and, despite the late hour—
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt, but I was remiss in not responding to the question asked by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, on whether we could meet my noble friend Lady Andrews and the noble Lord, Lord Best, who I am not trying to deflect from what he is about to do. Notwithstanding the outcome of this democratic process, I would be happy to do that.
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- Lord BestCrossbench
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- My Lords, it is very generous of the noble Lord to say “notwithstanding the outcome” of what follows. I should like to test the opinion of the House.
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- moved Amendment No. 82:
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- Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove BayNon-affiliated
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- My Lords, the National Housing Federation, Shelter and Citizens Advice believe that these sanctions would punish the innocent family members of those evicted for anti-social behaviour and that, instead of tackling the problem at its root, the proposed policy would exacerbate social exclusion and lead to greater indebtedness and homelessness. We agree. There are plenty of effective ways to tackle anti-social behaviour—we support them—but this is not one of them. It could visit the sins of the fathers on the children. It is a typical cheap new Labour stunt—not intended to be used very much, but a good headline-grabber. Like the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, we oppose the provision.
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- My Lords, this clause seeks to introduce an incentive to households evicted for anti-social behaviour to take up offers of rehabilitation and support to address the causes of their problem behaviour. The intention is to introduce a sanction of housing benefit for those people who have already been evicted by an order of a court as a result of anti-social behaviour and are refusing to take up offers of help and support. Specifically, the clause will allow us to pilot the use of a sanction in around 10 local authorities, starting as soon as practicable, for two years only. In Grand Committee, we debated the evidence that providing intensive support and supervision can achieve both positive and significant changes in a person’s behaviour. Given the strong evidence that such rehabilitation works, it is justifiable that a sanction of benefit should be linked to the refusal of such help and support. The provision of support services is now more widespread than ever, and we are continuing to invest in these services, as set out in the Respect Action Plan. I have listened carefully to the points made in this House about the need to protect the most vulnerable. Perhaps I may again list the safeguards that we have built in from the outset. There would already have been consideration by a judge of the household circumstances and any issues concerning vulnerability before a possession order was made. The local authority would have discretion in deciding the most suitable course of action and this would be discussed with the household concerned. For example, a referral to mental health services might be more appropriate than a benefit sanction. If a sanction is applied, it can be brought to an end at any stage by the local authority—for example, where members of the household are taking action to improve their behaviour. There will be an appeals process and a hardship regime where benefit will be reduced by 30 per cent, as opposed to a full withdrawal. As set out in the draft regulations, specific groups, such as households in which there is a child or caring responsibilities, will be able to claim the hardship rate. I assure the House that this sanction is not intended to be imposed widely. The scheme will be judged a success if the sanctions are never applied because that would suggest that the households involved would have engaged with rehabilitation. We strongly believe that the welfare state should combine rights with responsibilities. The right to benefit can only come with the responsibility to behave with respect for others. I believe that this proposal strikes the right balance. We have given assurances about the degree of parliamentary scrutiny which would be necessary for a national rollout under this clause. However, we accept that these assurances have not been enough to allay the concerns expressed in this House and in the other place. We will therefore return to this House on Third Reading with an amendment inserting a sunset clause. This will ensure that to roll out the scheme nationally, we will have to return to both Houses with primary legislation and all the scrutiny that that entails. In the light of that, I urge that the amendment be withdrawn.
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- Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove BayNon-affiliated
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- My Lords, we welcome that announcement. What will be the timing? What is the period before the sunset clause? How long until it lapses, if I can put it that way?
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- My Lords, the intention is not to be able to go beyond the pilots. The pilots are for two years and we want to get those started as soon as possible. One could not go beyond that to roll out nationally without further primary legislation. That is the intention. If it is different, we will share our intent with noble Lords, perhaps before Third Reading.
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for that. Pressure in both Houses and from outside organisations has had a great effect on Ministers. I was aware of the local authority discretion in this matter. Indeed, I referred to it earlier. All relevant considerations will be made by a judge before the ultimate sanctions are applied. It is my contention that the pilots will be totally useless. They will not prove what the Government are seeking to achieve. Having said that, I like to think that I am fair and I am quite prepared to give the Government two years to prove me wrong. As I understand it, if the Minister’s amendment means that, after two years, the pilots are over but the evaluation is not yet complete and they do not show that there have been any financial sanctions, it will be necessary for the Government to come back with primary legislation, should they want to introduce this on a national rollout. If I have got that right, I accept what the Minister has said word for word. I am grateful to him for going as far as he has. I will certainly take up the offer of discussing the final form of this sunset clause with him before that amendment is tabled. However, for the moment, I beg leave to withdraw this amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 36 [Payment of housing benefit]:
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- moved Amendment No. 36:
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Baroness Morgan of DrefelinLabour- Quote
- My Lords, I am delighted to have the opportunity to discuss the amendment further this evening. Clause 36 provides powers for prescribing the manner in which housing benefit is paid to all types of tenants. We require that power to allow us to specify the payment method for certain categories of social housing. Before I respond to the amendment, I will clarify for the House once again what the Government’s intentions are in the social sector. It is a priority for the Government to build financial inclusion and to encourage individuals, where possible, to take responsibility for their own affairs. One way of achieving that would be to enable customers in the social sector to take responsibility for paying their own rent. However, we realise that this may be difficult for some customers. So, as we have publicly committed, we will proceed cautiously with any reform of the social sector, ensuring that proper safeguards and support mechanisms are in place. In the private sector, we believe that a great many customers are ready to start managing their own payments, which is why one of the key features of the local housing allowance is that, in most cases, housing benefit will be paid to the customer. However, we will not force that responsibility on to those customers who are unable to exercise it. There will be safeguards to protect those customers, so that local authorities can determine whether the housing benefit should be paid to the landlord. This amendment would enable regulations to be made that would require local authorities to put every new customer through a long and potentially complex assessment procedure. The amount of information that all customers would have to provide would greatly increase. Much of the information would have to be of a private and confidential nature. The administrative burden on local authorities would increase and could lead to slower processing times and to all customers having to wait longer for their benefit. Local authorities may also require information from a greater number of sources, thus increasing information sharing between different organisations.
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- My Lords, I notice that on this occasion the noble Baroness did not use the word “overkill”. I agree that the priority should be to build financial inclusion, as I said in introducing the amendment. I accept that the Government are proceeding cautiously on this. I was pleased to hear—I had not heard it before—that 86 per cent of recipients of housing benefit in the pilot areas were operating this successfully. That still leaves another 24 per cent and that is the group that I am worried about—
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- Baroness Hollis of HeighamLabour
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- My Lords, it is 14 per cent.
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- My Lords, it is getting late; my maths is never up to scratch but it is even worse than usual. I am clearly concerned about the 14 per cent and the noble Baroness is right about the possibility of their eviction. I am concerned that eight weeks seems to be rather a long time. If a landlord is not paid for eight weeks, it is likely that he will have instigated proceedings for eviction by that stage. It will be interesting to see how the pilots proceed and whether the 14 per cent figure goes down. At this time of night, there is no alternative but to withdraw the amendment—although, even if it had been 3.30 in the afternoon, I would still have withdrawn the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 40 [Social security information]:
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Lord Taylor of HolbeachConservative- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 84:
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Lord AddingtonLiberal Democrat- Quote
- My Lords, the principle of protecting data is important. The general point that has been raised is important. I hope that the Minister, whose amendment is grouped with these, will be able to give us a little more clarification about what the Government are going to do to address these concerns.
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- Baroness Morgan of DrefelinLabour
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- My Lords, I hope I can do that without going on for too long. First, I will speak to government Amendment No. 86. This is a minor amendment consequential to the government amendments to Clause 40 approved in Grand Committee. Those amendments addressed concerns raised by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee and the Joint Committee on Human Rights on one aspect of Clause 40, which deals with the use of social security information. The proposal of a new Section 7B in the Social Security Administration Act 1992, which was originally worded to enable the prescription of benefit take-up activity through regulations, was amended so that such activity is now set out in the Bill. Another feature of Clause 40 is that it will enable English county council staff to perform certain social security functions for the first time, including promoting such benefit take-up by using social security information that they hold. It is in this connection that the consequential amendment is needed. Under Section 123 of the Social Security Administration Act 1992, it is a criminal offence for persons employed in social security administration to make any unauthorised disclosure of information. Clause 40(3) extends the definition of, “persons employed in social security administration”, in Schedule 4 to the 1992 Act so that it applies to English county council staff. Noble Lords will be pleased to hear that it already covers DWP staff and local authority housing benefit staff. The definition currently in Clause 40(3) refers to: “A member, officer or employee of a county council who exercises ... any function ... specified in regulations made under section 7B”. However, we need to reflect the fact that the functions concerned—namely, assisting and encouraging persons to claim benefit—now appear in the Bill in new Section 7B(3) and will not be specified in regulations, as originally intended. This consequential amendment therefore brings subsection (3) of Clause 40 in line with subsection (1). Amendment No. 84 would prevent patient data being used for a relevant purpose. Here, a “relevant purpose” means identifying persons who may be entitled to certain benefits and encouraging, advising or assisting them to make a claim for one or more of those benefits in order to encourage and increase benefit take-up. I take “patient data” to mean medical information or evidence provided by the customer or obtained with their consent, as these are the only data about a customer that a relevant authority will hold. I shall return to this later. I appreciate that the use of medical data must be subject to limitations, but perhaps I may offer the following assurances as to why this amendment is unnecessary. Any medical information obtained is classed as sensitive personal information for Data Protection Act purposes and is subject to more stringent safeguards than the use of other personal information. One function of Clause 40 is to enable local authorities administering housing benefit and English county councils to promote the take-up of benefits administered by the DWP. The benefits, which are listed in draft Regulation 6, paragraph (3), include those where the provision of medical evidence in support of a claim is necessary, such as incapacity benefit, employment and support allowance and disability living allowance. If local authorities were prevented from using medical evidence and information, that would restrict benefit take-up. Another function of this clause is to support the operation of joint teams. Joint teams bring together staff from the DWP, English county councils and local authorities administering housing benefit. They work together to visit people—primarily pensioners—to encourage and help them to make claims for the benefits and other services to which they may be entitled. Because team roles are interchangeable, patient data may be collected by local authority staff in support of the claims to a benefit administered by the DWP. Customers are not required to make a claim or provide evidence to joint team staff. Where they do so, it is with their consent and on the understanding that such information may be shared as necessary in support of their claim to benefit. The customers remain in control throughout and can opt to make their claim direct to the DWP or the local authority administering housing benefit if they prefer. As I mentioned, there are restrictions under this clause on the purposes for which an authority can use the medical evidence that it obtains. The purposes are set out in primary legislation at Section 7B(3) and concern identifying, assisting and advising in relation to making a claim to benefit. It follows that only relevant and necessary medical information and evidence would be collected in relation to such functions. I can further assure noble Lords that any medical information obtained is classed as sensitive personal information for Data Protection Act purposes and is subject to more stringent safeguards than the use of other personal information. The department, local authorities and English county councils are bound by the principles of the Data Protection Act in their use of personal information. As I have said previously, staff are subject to Section 123 of the Social Security Administration Act, which makes it a criminal offence to disclose information without lawful consent.
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- My Lords, this is a proposed affirmative resolution to a totally different part of the Bill. Therefore, it would be helpful if the Minister would say what she can on the subject.
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- Baroness Morgan of DrefelinLabour
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- My Lords, I am happy to do so. In that case, accepting Amendment No. 85 would mean that regulations made under new Section 7B(2) would be subject to the affirmative parliamentary procedure. I have mentioned previously some of the aspects of this clause that relate to how information that is shared between relevant authorities may be used. Section 7B(2) is concerned with the processes that should be followed when certain information is received by a relevant authority from a different relevant authority. The draft regulations available to the House show how the Government propose to exercise the powers in subsection (2) of the new Section 7B. Briefly, the draft provides that if information has been used in relation to a claim to benefit by one relevant authority—a local authority administering housing benefit or the DWP—or has been verified by a relevant authority, including English county councils, a subsequent relevant authority that receives this information must, subject to certain safeguards, use it in connection with a claim for an award of benefit that it administers without carrying out further checks as to its accuracy. The intention is to ensure that if a customer has submitted information or evidence to one relevant authority, he should not have to submit the same information again to another relevant authority. This will improve the service to customers in making claims to benefit and will improve administrative efficiency. Making these regulations subject to the affirmative procedure would mean that new Section 7B(2) of the Social Security Administration Act 1992 would be out of line with existing Section 7A, inserted by the Welfare Reform and Pensions Act 1999. Section 7A allows for regulations to be made setting out the processes that are to be followed by, for example, a local authority which receives a claim for state pension credit. The negative procedure applies there. The Government's view is that it would be rather excessive for the regulations under new Section 7B, which are about how local authorities process claims, to attract the affirmative procedure. Certainly, this appeared to be the view of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, which made no recommendation in respect of this particular provision in Clause 40. I urge the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.
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- Lord Taylor of HolbeachConservative
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- My Lords, I thank the Minister for that full exposition of the situation. Amendment No. 85 has been covered because we have expressed our view that Parliament has a role in scrutinising the way that legislation moves forward. I am satisfied that the Minister has taken on board the need for confidentiality in statistical data. I hope that she is confident that the affirmative way in which people volunteer information will mean that it is safeguarded so that when it is requested people know full well that it will be kept confidential. That can only be done on a consensual basis. There would be considerable concern if this information were passed on through third parties to someone else. It would probably be done in a well-meaning way, but it would not necessarily serve the long-term interests of the confidentiality of the claimant. As we have received those assurances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendment No. 85 not moved.]
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- Baroness Morgan of DrefelinLabour
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- moved Amendment No. 86:
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Baroness Thomas of WinchesterLiberal Democrat- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 87:
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Lord Kirkwood of KirkhopeLiberal Democrat- Quote
- My Lords, this has been departmental unfinished business for a number of years, as I know to my cost. In a previous incarnation I was part of a Select Committee that looked at this area in some detail. To an extent, it is not just unfinished business but there is credibility at stake in some respects. In the days of the Social Security Administration Act 1992, statutes of a social security nature were extensive and laid out in some detail. Most of the detail was contained in the primary sections of the primary legislation. Things have changed; the older I get, the more I can see the force of enabling legislation that can be fleshed out in statutory instruments and delegated legislation. The rationale in 1992 was that the department was entitled to six months’ respite, if I can put it that way, because the primary legislation contained all the necessary detail to foresee what would happen in the immediate aftermath of the primary statute. That has certainly changed in this legislation, if it had not done before. I absolutely support the Government’s perfectly understandable intention to set out the framework as they have in this enabling legislation and to back it up later with SIs and delegated secondary legislation. The whole way of developing social security statutes has changed, which everyone from the social security committee to the DWP committee and the quinquennial review under Professor Hazel Genn recognised, as did Andrew Smith. When he was Secretary for State in the last Parliament, Andrew Smith gave a clear commitment that he could see the force of how the system had changed, demonstrating a need to remove the protected six-month period to which the department was able to cleave. The last time that the Social Security Advisory Committee looked at this, in its 19th report, it suggested that it was making progress with the department in getting that principle accepted. It seemed that we were almost getting to the stage of saying, “Don’t worry; let’s try it this time with this Bill on welfare reform, and in the next social security legislation that comes along we will get the amendment to the 1992 SSAA”. That Act needs to be changed to put right the situation. This amendment, which my noble friend moved so eloquently, makes a clear case, even at this late hour, that we should be making the change and giving the Government time to implement it as and when they feel it appropriate. That would seem the culmination of a series of iterative, evolving discussions with the department. This is the moment when we should take the chance, as it might not come again for some time, which would be a shame. If we do not take that opportunity, the Government are saying that they do not value the Social Security Advisory Committee’s contribution to the legislative process, because some people in the pressure-group community outside are beginning to wonder whether there has been a deliberate attack on the extent of the SSAC’s remit. This is one element of that discussion. The Government have to be careful that they do not undersell or diminish the role of the Social Security Advisory Committee. Amendment No. 87 would be an important signal that they understood. There are conditions in the SSAC’s 19th annual report to the effect that if, for example, we take the six-month rule out, we could start in Committee to point to some of the regulations and statutory instruments that could be the subject of scrutiny within the six-month period. This is an important moment this evening for the Government to explain clearly whether they are going to take this opportunity that the amendment clearly gives them. If they do not take it, there will be far-reaching consequences for the Social Security Advisory Committee and all the valuable work that it does.
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- My Lords, inclined as I am to agree with the thinking behind these amendments, it is only fair for me to say that Section 173(5) of the Social Security Administration Act is a sensible procedure in many cases, but not for this Bill. If a regulation is to be enacted within six months of the Bill, it is to be expected that draft regulations and so on will have been fully scrutinised and debated by both Houses and that concerned parties will have had an opportunity to comment. No doubt such words will very shortly be sopken by the Minister. But we have seen from the lengthy and sometimes rather confused debates on certain clauses in Part 1 that there is much about the regulations that is still not clear, despite the best attempts of the Government to give us advance sight of as much material as they can and their helpful attempts to explain the points that we have raised. It is unfortunate that it is only now—nearly halfway through the Bill’s progress, after it has already passed through another place—that we are making any real progress in unpicking the confusions that remain. I therefore think that there is a strong argument for making an exception for this Bill, which, as is repeatedly said, makes extensive changes to the system of benefits for disability, and for the Minister to assure us that all the regulations that are needed to implement its provisions are fully consulted on by SSAC. As far as Amendment No. 88 goes, the problem is that great chunks of social security have been pinched by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the department is a pale shadow of what it once was. The Chancellor and his team have a different way of looking at things. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, that it was quite wrong at the time to cut out SSAC and it is just as wrong now.
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- Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove BayNon-affiliated
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- My Lords, I wonder whether I could make one brief point, as this is probably my last chance to speak in the late, late show. I want to congratulate Ministers and officials on the constructive, even consensual, approach that they have shown in our deliberations. I ask that the important amendments that they have said they will bring forward—particularly in relation to Amendments Nos. 89, 46, 47 and 82—will be produced as soon as possible, preferably tomorrow. We are almost into Tuesday now, so there is only a week to go. It is essential to give people the widest opportunity to see them before we have to decide whether to support them next week—as I hope we will be able to.
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- My Lords, I start by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, for his kind comments and by trying to address the point that he raised about the timing of amendments. I cannot commit that this will be done tomorrow without talking to officials, but I understand the need to get it done as soon as we can so that people have a real opportunity to focus on them and be satisfied that they address the points that we maintain they will. The Social Security Advisory Committee does an important job very effectively and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, John Hutton, and other Ministers meet the committee on a regular basis. From our perspective, the relationship is dynamic and fruitful. The committee’s informal and formal scrutiny of the majority of amended regulations before they become law and its meetings with officials and Ministers about proposed policy developments have helped successive Governments make better rules under which benefits are claimed. Amendment No. 87 would remove the provision in Section 173(5) of the 1992 Act which precludes referral to SSAC of regulations made within six months of a relevant enactment. Following recent dialogue with the committee, Ministers reached the view that this limitation should remain in place. The SSAC’s current remit does not extend to scrutiny of draft regulations made under powers recently enacted by Parliament. “Recently” means the long-established period of six months following commencement of the relevant power. Referring such regulations to the committee for further scrutiny would jeopardise the timely implementation of the policy set out in the legislation so recently approved and scrutinised by Parliament. This amendment does not sit very comfortably with this Bill. It follows extensive consultation on our plans for welfare reform where we have published the key draft regulations to which the public, SSAC and the Disability Employment Advisory Committee have had access and where we have updated the regulations document before this Bill was placed before your Lordships’ House. Finally and very importantly, the amendment would pre-empt the outcome of the non-statutory trial which SSAC and the department are currently operating, which aims to provide the committee with more comprehensive information on the Government’s intentions. The trial involves the Bill now before your Lordships, the Pensions Bill and the regulations that may be proposed if these Bills are enacted. It offers increased scope for SSAC to make its views known at an earlier stage than in the past. When the trial is complete SSAC will produce a report and the Government will decide what implications there may be for SSAC’s future functions. The Government will of course make public their conclusions.
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- Baroness Thomas of WinchesterLiberal Democrat
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- My Lords, will the report be produced for Parliament or will it be made public?
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- My Lords, I confirm what I have said: the Government will make public their conclusions. I hope that noble Lords will accept that in the context of what is going on, it would be pre-emptive to proceed with this amendment. It is right that this process be concluded and for the Government to publish the conclusions of the report. Amendment No. 88 would place a statutory duty on HMRC to consult the SSAC on secondary legislation relating to guardian’s allowance and child benefit. The fact that SSAC has a statutory role in relation to the benefits system does not read across to the tax system and other HMRC business. The Government have consistently made it clear that it is not necessary or logical to take new statutory powers. The amendment appears to ignore the fact that SSAC already has a channel to put its advice to Treasury Ministers on a range of HMRC business, including guardian’s allowance and child benefit. The amendment ignores the existing Memorandum of Understanding, which sets out how HMRC and SSAC conduct their business. I should emphasise that HMRC and SSAC willingly accepted the terms and conditions of the memorandum only after months of discussion and debate between the two parties. The noble Lord expresses some surprise at that contention.
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- Lord Kirkwood of KirkhopeLiberal Democrat
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- My Lords, Professor Genn is not an interested party to this. I think her views were slightly different. Would the Minister not acknowledge that?
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- My Lords, I am sure that there are some people who would take a different view. I am expressing the view I believe to be correct. This was entered into by agreement between the two parties. Treasury Ministers are able to obtain the freely and frankly expressed views and the expertise of SSAC. Treasury Ministers take the view that the disclosure of SSAC’s advice would be likely to inhibit the free and frank provision of advice or could prejudice the effective development of policy. The confidentiality of that advice recognises that the Chancellor has responsibility to deliver the Government’s aims of delivering a single system of support designed to make work pay and of reducing child poverty. He also has to make those decisions in the context of his overall economic responsibility as part of the Budget process. The proposed amendment would be made to a DWP Bill and ignores the opportunity for HMRC and the SSAC to determine, by mutual agreement, the content of the MoU and the way in which arrangements covered by it will operate. The memorandum is about to be reviewed, with both sides agreeing the terms of that review. It would be pre-emptive to press this amendment in light of that situation. I hope that these explanations have totally convinced noble Lords and I urge the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment.
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- Baroness Thomas of WinchesterLiberal Democrat
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- My Lords, it is clear that not everyone on these Benches has been convinced, but I thank my noble friend for being so enthusiastic in his support for the amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, was enthusiastic for one of the amendments, at least. We do not want the SSAC to be forced into a private conversation with the Government about these very important regulations. I do not think that the situation is satisfactory. After all, Professor Genn made her views very clear in the quinquennial review. However, at this late hour, noble Lords will be pleased to know that I will not press the amendment to a Division. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendment No. 88 not moved.] Clause 61 [Medical examinations]: [Amendment No. 89 not moved.] House adjourned at 11.01 pm.
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