Committee stage in the Lords
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The Attorney-General (Baroness Scotland of Asthal)Labour- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 116A:
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- 21:22
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Baroness Butler-SlossCrossbench- Quote
- In making some observations on the government amendments put forward by the noble and learned Baroness the Attorney-General, I shall oppose the Question that Clause 105 stand part of the Bill, in which I am supported by other noble Lords. Listening to the noble and learned Baroness, I was to some extent relieved by the steps that have been taken. A lot of work has been done in a short time, but I retain some concerns and it is important that I express them. The use of non-legal advocates to prosecute in contested cases is an extension of the current rights of non-legal Crown Prosecution Service staff. It is helpful, and I am extremely grateful to the Minister and the Attorney-General, to have been kept in touch with the nature of all these proposals and, in particular, that it is not intended that non-legal Crown Prosecution Service staff would prosecute in cases that could lead to imprisonment. That takes the position a long way. But it is important to remember that even in cases in which someone will not go to prison, there is a stigma in a conviction and it is extremely important that those who prosecute should do that to a standard equivalent to those who are legally trained either as barristers or solicitors. There are criticisms, I have to say, and I have been told about them—some of them very recently—in relation to the way in which some non-legally qualified Crown Prosecution Service staff carry out their work. I understand that although the National Audit Office expressed the view that the Magistrates’ Association was satisfied with the way in which the non-legal Crown Prosecution staff conducted the cases, that is not the view of many members of the Magistrates’ Association. They are not, as I understand it, very satisfied: I am told that the Magistrates’ Association shares the Bar Council’s assessment that the proposal to extend the DCWs’ powers is all about cost-cutting. They are concerned that poorly prosecuted cases lead to longer and more expensive trials—and, of course, more expensive appeals and increased court and knock-on costs. I understand that the Magistrates’ Association gave a briefing paper to Peers in January, in which it said that it was opposed to this clause. It is also perhaps of some interest that the Bar Standards Board, a new organisation, has a consumer panel that has been in touch with the Bar Council. It comments: “The panel recognised the value of an independent “second look” at prosecutions by a lawyer before they proceed, rather than cases remaining wholly with a case officer who has undertaken the preparatory work. There is felt to be always the danger that, if a case worker has sole “end to end” involvement, they could develop a personal stake in the outcome and would also miss out on that independent review, provided by a lawyer, to assess the strength of the evidence. … The panel would not want to see speed of outcome outweighing the quality of outcome. Given the importance we give to the fairness of the processes, and the quality of the work, the Panel did support the public interest concerns raised by the Bar Council”. I felt it only appropriate to make those points on behalf of that board’s consumer panel. Therefore the Magistrates’ Association, the Bar Council and the Bar Standards Board’s consumer panel are concerned. It seems to me to be, among other things, a matter of training and three sorts of training may be required: training in how to be an advocate as a prosecutor; training in important issues of conduct such as the pre-eminence of the duty to the court, and other matters of great importance; and the importance of the line manager. I express my concern that a Crown Prosecution Service employee who says that a prosecution should not proceed because it is inadequate, or that something is wrong with it will have to face the line manager to explain why that prosecution did not continue. So line managers will have to be trained—they may not be lawyers, but it will have to be explained to them that there is a duty on the prosecution not to proceed if the case should not go forward. I am comforted by the noble and learned Baroness the Attorney-General in that the ILEX code of conduct and that of advocates in the Crown Prosecution Service are now being seriously considered with a view to harmonising them, as I think the noble and learned Baroness said, with the rules and practice of conduct of the Bar and of solicitors. If we are to have non-legal Crown Prosecution staff conducting contested trials, it is clearly important that they should be subject to the identical rules that apply to anyone else who is prosecuting. That, again, becomes a question of training. I remain concerned. Many of my concerns have been relieved to some extent, but I should like to see one particular thing in the Bill. I have had discussions with the noble and learned Baroness the Attorney-General, who tells me that it is unlikely to be included, but I am concerned that the Bill does not provide that Crown Prosecution Service staff who are not legally qualified would not be engaged in prosecutions which potentially lead to imprisonment. I should very much like to see that in the Bill. However, I am comforted by the fact that I was given the current codes of conduct for both ILEX advocates and Crown Prosecution Service advocates, and I am extremely grateful to the noble and learned Baroness for these. They are infinitely better than I thought they would be but they could be improved.
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- 21:30
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Lord BorrieLabour- Quote
- Perhaps I may contribute to this debate by saying something with which I am sure everyone will agree at once: it is most important that there are appropriate restrictions on those who are entitled to engage in advocacy in our courts so that they are suitably qualified and conform to necessary ethical rules when they are so engaged. It is also important that those restrictions are no more than are necessary and that they are proportionate to the needs of the particular situation or case. In my view, the government amendments to Clause 105—I stress, government amendments—are designed to ensure that the restrictions on who can appear are proportionate, and they are meant to enable designated caseworkers of the Crown Prosecution Service to act as advocates both in non-contested cases, in which they have been so engaged since 1998, and also, from now, in cases involving summary-only offences. In the light of discussions and in the light of the Second Reading debate, the Government have pulled back from the position that they originally put in the Bill—hence, the government amendments today. To deal with the concern of many, including the Bar Council, that designated caseworkers should not act as advocates if the trial may result in imprisonment, then it is intended, as my noble and learned friend the Attorney-General indicated, that the DPP will issue instructions under the Prosecution of Offences Act 1985 to limit for the time being the use of designated caseworkers to cases where imprisonment cannot result from the trial. That, of course, would enable some change at some future time so that, if designated caseworkers qualified and became fellows of the Institute of Legal Executives, they could act as advocates in more serious trials. However, Members of the Committee will have noticed that my noble and learned friend indicated that that should be subject to the qualification of the Attorney-General agreeing to the circumstances and the occasion of that extension. Using instructions would certainly be more flexible than if the Act, by virtue of amendments made at this or some later stage of the Bill, unduly restricted designated caseworker rights of advocacy. I noticed that the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, welcomed the fact that adherence to the Institute of Legal Executives code of conduct would be fine, particularly if it was harmonised upwards—that was not her word—to ensure that it complied with and conformed to the Bar and the Law Society codes of conduct. In summary, it seems to me that the advantages of the Government’s carefully crafted amendments are threefold. First, fully-qualified lawyer resources can be concentrated on complex and serious crime. Secondly, the method of approach and the possible extension in the future of the trial advocacy rights of designated caseworkers will enhance the diversity of pathways into the legal profession. Of course, it is in the public interest to ensure wider access to the legal profession over a period of time. Thirdly, we should not, if the Government amendments are accepted, put too much in the Bill unduly to inhibit the development of advocacy rights of DCWs in the future because of the method chosen in the government amendments which would not put restrictions fully in the Bill.
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- 21:30
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Lord Thomas of GresfordLiberal Democrat- Quote
- I totally disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, about not putting restrictions in the Bill. At Second Reading, I suggested that an ILEX qualification was the minimum that one would expect for DCWs who appeared in contested cases of any sort. I still think that that is the case. I also think it is very important that there be agreement on the standards to be employed by ILEX in looking at the way in which DCWs approach their job. I am unhappy that we have a letter of today’s date setting out these proposals. This Bill has been around for some eight or nine months and only today we have proposals thrust on us with no chance at all to consult on or discuss them with interested parties. As a result, I shall reserve the position of these Benches on whether it will be necessary to table further amendments to this clause on Report. I shall consider very carefully, with colleagues and interested parties, whether that will be appropriate. The Government have come some way towards what is necessary, but there has to be a point where non-qualified lawyers do not have rights of audience and I am not sure that the line is being properly drawn in the terms of the letter that we have now received.
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- 21:45
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Lord Mayhew of TwysdenConservative- Quote
- I want to record my complete agreement with everything that has been said by the noble Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. I am grateful for the manifest signs of revision and of hard work the noble and learned Baroness the Attorney-General has plainly put in since she took over. Like the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, we need more time to consider the letter. I received a copy during the afternoon, for which I am grateful. It is very important that we do not rush this provision for reasons that are quite often missed. A prosecuting advocate in a magistrates’ court is quite often the only lawyer present, apart from the court clerk. A very heavy responsibility rests on him or her to ensure that the prosecution is at all times fair and that the court is never misled. As the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, said, the primary and overriding duty of the advocate is not to the prosecuting authority, but to the court itself. I am grateful to see that the ambit of the designated caseworker’s abilities will be restricted in the way in which we have been told this evening. None the less these cases will often be brought against people who are unrepresented. Their livelihood and reputation may well be at stake even though these are not now imprisonable offences. We should take account of the grave misgivings of the Magistrates’ Association. As we were reminded yesterday, magistrates take 95 per cent of the cases tried in England and Wales. I think that it is in the order of 2 million cases every year. It is not just a question of being opposed, as it states in its briefing, which the noble Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, mentioned. It states: “We are strongly opposed to this provision”. That is an extremely important point. I should like to hear from the Attorney-General whether there has been any consultation with the magistrates with a view to assuaging their concerns, which were unusually strongly expressed—that was the association’s exact language. There has been some reassuring progress, which has not gone far enough to make me happy, but I am hoping that reassurance will be reinforced.
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- 21:45
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- Baroness Scotland of AsthalLabour
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- I am so grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken, but I am particularly grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, for his complimentary comments about the typing. I have always found the content of more interest. May I say how much I agree with and understand the basis of the concerns that have been expressed about these issues? I reassure the Committee about the way in which these matters are dealt with. Many noble and learned Lords will be aware that we have in recent times introduced a new procedure for charging, so that a legally qualified prosecutor—a lawyer—determines the nature of the charges that will be laid and therefore has an intimate connection with the preparatory stages of the case. The designated caseworker will therefore not work on their own but will be part of a team. The level of participation appropriate for a designated caseworker will then be determined. I say straightaway to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew of Twysden, that he need not be concerned that a lawyer’s eye has not passed over the very precise issue of whether there should be a prosecution at all and, if so, on what basis. Qualified solicitors and barristers employed by and on behalf of the CPS remain available to designated caseworkers to assist them, so they are not cast adrift in that regard. I say, too, to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, that of course it is not part of our role to seek to develop the career of a designated caseworker, but he and I both, I know, have a firm belief that we should seek to diversify those who come into the profession, to the benefit of the public and others. This means that introducing those who may not have thought of becoming a lawyer when they left school has proved to be very successful. We know how professions can change. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, knows only too well how one can rise through the ranks from registrar to Lord Justice of Appeal and then to President of the Family Division—something that we have all benefited from and would like to see more of. I therefore agree with my noble friend Lord Borrie that these provisions are well founded and balanced, and I hope that, on mature reflection, when the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, has an opportunity to consider the content and not just the nature of the typing, he will find that we have a good solution to what appeared to be a knotty problem. I say, too, to the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, that I understand that my noble friend Lord Hunt wrote on 8 February to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland—a letter that was copied to the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford—providing details of the government amendments and the agreement with ILEX. He also wrote on 7 February, following up points made at Second Reading, so it is not quite fair to suggest that these matters have not been raised before. I take full responsibility for the letter. I knew that this matter would come to the Committee late, and I hoped in my common naive way that the letter might assist your Lordships better to understand the history, the nature, the content and the reasoning that the Government have put into coming to this resolution. I hope that the letter will do that in due course.
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- 22:00
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- Lord Thomas of GresfordLiberal Democrat
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- This is the noble and learned Baroness’s amendment, so she will have the last word. The letter assists us in showing how far she has got in her consideration, but there are other issues. There is a certain comfort in the fact that a lawyer will have looked at the charge, but the presentation of the case in court demands a knowledge of the laws of evidence, a knowledge of the ethics, and skills in presentation. We shall see whether those are all available. The noble and learned Baroness should also bear in mind that the clerk to the court does not have to be legally qualified, although in my youth—I dare say that it was not the case in her youth—the clerk to a magistrates’ court was almost always a qualified lawyer, which certainly is not the case today. One envisages a situation where you have an undefended defendant, an unqualified prosecutor, an unqualified clerk and magistrates of experience and wisdom, no doubt, but not necessarily legally qualified to pick up the problems that can arise in the presentation of a case, and not necessarily in a position to understand the niceties of what is happening in front of them.
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- 22:00
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- Baroness Scotland of AsthalLabour
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- Of course I understand what the noble Lord says about that issue, but it is important to understand, too, as I said earlier, that this is a team analysis. It will look at the nature of the case. It will look at the quality of the evidence that is to be produced, all of which will have been viewed by a Crown prosecutor of legal experience. It will give guidance in terms of the briefs that are given to caseworkers to carry out this work. One of the factors which the prosecutors will look at is whether the defendant is or is not legally represented. These are issues which may determine whether a designated case worker does the case or some other individual.
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- 22:00
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- Baroness Butler-SlossCrossbench
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- On this point, it is not so much the preparation that would worry me as what could go wrong in court. The noble and learned Baroness and I, and others in this House who have been lawyers and have practised in different courts, including the magistrates’ court, know that the way a case is presented is not the way the case goes, and things go wrong. It is in the tricky, non-custodial type of case, but which will be of importance to the defendant, that something can go badly wrong. Two things worry me. First, at that moment there is not to be a single lawyer in court, as the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew of Twysden, have pointed out. Secondly, if it goes wrong, will the line manager understand or will the Crown prosecution non-legally trained employee really go partly wrong because he is afraid of what will be said back in the office? Not being a lawyer, he will not have had that independence of training.
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- 22:00
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- Baroness Scotland of AsthalLabour
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- The noble Lord need not trouble. I just know that I am back. I understand him perfectly and our good relations will be in no way tarnished by this evening. Training is important and, of course, all this is predicated on having excellent training and skills that can be developed. The process through which designated case workers entertain this work is really quite impressive. I want us not to forget reality. It is true that there are many qualified solicitors, barristers and professors of law who one would not necessarily say were the most erudite, effective and succinct advocates. It is a skill which the whole of the profession benefits from and has to constantly hone, and I do not suggest therefore that designated caseworkers fall into a different category. One has to bear in mind one further fact. If the Committee were to say that designated caseworkers as a group could not prosecute save in and except for those cases which are non-imprisonable and that was put in the Bill, those designated caseworkers who are currently qualified solicitors and barristers but discharge the role of a designated caseworker would, while they remain in that role, not be able to do contested work. I know that that is not what noble Lords would wish for, and indeed the Committee knows that full ILEX members are able to undertake any form of work in the magistrates’ court. The way we have crafted this provision would enable designated caseworkers who are barristers and solicitors, and those who are ILEX members, in due course to do all forms of work, restricting the non-imprisonable and other forms of work to those who have appropriate training and skills but are not yet members of the profession. I hope that in due course this will be something with which we can all be content. On Question, amendment agreed to.
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- 22:00
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- Baroness Scotland of AsthalLabour
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- moved Amendments Nos. 116B and 116C:
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- 22:00
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- Baroness Scotland of AsthalLabour
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- moved Amendment No. 116D:
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- 22:00
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Lord BachLabour- Quote
- I beg to move that the House do now resume. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to. House resumed. House adjourned at 10.11 pm.
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