Committee stage in the Lords
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The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes)Conservative- Quote
- I make the usual statement: if there is a Division in the Chamber, I shall adjourn the Committee immediately and it will resume after 10 minutes. Title postponed.
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Lord Kirkwood of KirkhopeLiberal Democrat- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 1:
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Lord SkelmersdaleConservative- Quote
- I believe that over the next few days and weeks the Committee is in for an unusual treat in that we have in front of us the Minister who is responsible for this whole area of child maintenance. He is not the first and he will not be the last. I hesitate to say that because I know that he does not like his job to be referred to as temporary. In his closing remarks, the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, did not appear to take account of the announcement which the Minister made at Second Reading and which is the subject of the next group of amendments—that is, he will remain in charge with the exception that under him will be a chief executive and a chairman of this new commission. Of course, he will not be responsible for day-to-day operations but then he never has been. However, he will be responsible for direction and guidance and for seeing that things go as the policy directs. The other reason why the Committee is in for a treat is that over the past few years the Minister has shown himself in my presence to be very careful to listen and, once he has made up his mind that the arguments are correct, to act upon them. Until now, he has had to go through two other Ministers: the Secretary of State of the time and the Minister responsible for the Bill, who, in the two cases that I am thinking of, as he will remember, were Members of another place. Here, we have direct access and I look forward to it. The Minister says from a sitting position that he is not sure that he is, but I do not know why not. He is, for once, in a position of great power and I am all for it. It was Maria in “The Sound of Music” who said: “Let’s start at the very beginning, a very good place to start”. The noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, almost started like that because in his opening paragraphs he referred to what we are all talking about—that is, children. I shall come to the fact that children and their maintenance in the widest terms already exist in the legislation. However, it seems that the noble Lord has sought to go one better and put down a shopping list not only of what subjects are in the Bill but of what he would like to see in it. He described this as a “policy framework”, if I may use shorthand—I see him nodding. Not being very familiar with my thought processes, the noble Lord probably does not know that I am on record more than once as saying that I do not believe in shopping lists, nor purpose or objective clauses, even if they are basically correct. That may or may not be because many years ago I was, with different responsibilities, in the Minister’s position. I am sure that this first debate will help our discussion on the Bill, not least because it behoves us to remember some basic facts on child maintenance that get totally forgotten, or at least ignored,. We are not really starting from here. However, we are, as they say, where we are. The Bill is legislation by reference, and I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, that it would be helpful to our debates to remember that this is an amending Bill. It amends the Child Support Act 1991 and, in part, the Child Support, Pensions and Social Security Act 2000.
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Lord NorthbourneCrossbench- Quote
- I like objective clauses. We have normally failed to get them into a Bill but, where they have been put in, such as in the Education Act, they are enormously useful. I am not sure that the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, has this one entirely right, and I do not suggest that it is, but he asked why the previous two Child Support Acts have failed and why this one is going to fail, as I suspect it will. Perhaps we are not looking in the right place. The commission or its predecessors are effectively debt collectors. We all hate debts but we hate them much more if we think that they are unjust—that is, if we do not believe that they are based on a reasonable obligation. I suggest that the Government have to go right back to the beginning and make up their mind about what they, and the nation, believe to be the duties of parenthood and then start to educate people so that they understand that, if they have a child, whether carelessly or otherwise, they have certain relatively clearly defined responsibilities.
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of Luton)Labour- Quote
- I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, for tabling the amendment, because it was a good place to start our deliberations on the Bill, although we had more of a Second Reading speech than a Committee speech. I am grateful for the forensic analysis of the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, much of which I agreed with. Let me try to deal with why we have structured the Bill as we have. As the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, will be aware, the amendments are unlikely to have a significant practical effect. The operation of the commission and the statutory maintenance system would continue to be governed by the objectives set out in Clause 2, together with the functions and rules laid out in the rest of the Bill. I believe that the noble Lord’s intention is, as he said, to propose a different starting place for our Bill—an entirely new piece of legislation centred around the legal right of children to maintenance and an obligation on parents to pay. Although I understand the argument behind that proposal, we should be clear that our objectives in this reform programme are more pragmatic. We do not apologise for that. The noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, asked: is this about children? Of course it is about children; it is all about children; it is all about making sure that we have more effective maintenance arrangements in place so that more money can be garnered for more children. That is exactly what the Bill is about. That is very clear from the objectives of the commission set down in Clause 2(1): “The Commission's main objective is to maximise the number of those children who live apart from one or both of their parents for whom effective maintenance arrangements are in place”. That is exactly what it is about. Several noble Lords were saying that this should be a wider Bill about the welfare of children and parental responsibilities. Of course those are important issues. In a sense, the Bill is only one part of the package, but we will debate later how those wider issues are being picked up and addressed. Our primary focus, building on experience from the past under different Administrations, has been to find practical solutions to getting maintenance flowing. Whatever the Bill’s philosophical wraparound, if it does not work in practice, it will not deliver for children. That is what we are about. We are, for example, establishing a new body to administer the child maintenance system and building a new information and support service. I should say to the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, that the fact that it will be a Crown NDPB does not fundamentally change the distance of the arm’s-length arrangement with government, but I know that we will debate that under later amendments. We are about delivering a simplified assessment process and strengthening our enforcement powers. That approach is in line with the comprehensive review of the child maintenance system by Sir David Henshaw. He did not consider the structure of the legislation a problem and made no recommendations about the rights of children. The two key policy issues that he identified were the difficulties created by compulsion—that is, the link with benefit to which the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, referred—and the lack of an incentive to comply. We are dealing directly with both of those by removing the compulsory link with the benefits system and dramatically increasing the level of the maintenance disregard. However, I can assure the noble Lord that we are working with colleagues across government on joining up both policy and delivery. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, was interested in that point and I will say a little more about it later. One option that we can consider is the consolidation of child maintenance legislation, and with that a fresh look at the interventions with other provisions, such as the Children’s Act. Of course we will need to be an integrated part of the crucial work of the Department for Children, Schools and Families. Let me deal specifically with the challenge that we were wrong to start by amending the 1991 Act. Again, that was a practical decision. Two schemes are embodied in that Act, the current scheme and the old scheme. Most of the new measures in the Bill will apply to both schemes and will come into force in stages, so they will continue to run for a period. This makes it technically very difficult to introduce a new Act. Indeed, we have learnt the lessons of the past about big bang reform. However, we are planning to consolidate legislation for transparency once a single scheme is in force, and I believe that that is the right approach.
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- The noble Lord has just said that the original intention of the 1991 Act was—again I am paraphrasing—to claw back benefits, and to a great extent he is probably correct. But as I said earlier, we are where we are. The noble Lord gave that as the reason why absent parents in particular have taken against the CSA and the formulas it operates. But he has also said that this scheme is new and different. How is he going to persuade those recalcitrant absent parents that that is indeed the case?
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- That is a rather big question which I think we will pick up as we go through our deliberations, but I made the point for a number of reasons. We are increasing the benefit disregard from nil in respect of old scheme cases to £20, from £10 to £20 for current scheme cases, with a further increase in the disregard of up to £40 in 2010. That will be a significant incentive for parents to comply and engage with the process. However, there are other reasons as well. There is an obligation in the Bill for the commission actively to promote the taking up of financial responsibilities to children. That is part of the process, as is making sure that people who are still not prepared to comply pay—there are assessment issues about getting data directly from HMRC rather than having to rely on the non-resident parent, which has in the past made it very difficult for the system to work. At the end of the day, we must make it very clear that if people will not comply there will be robust enforcement powers. Effective systems in place will make the situation better and we will be more able to ensure that the enforcement powers are used to the full. That was a collection of reasons, many of which we will deliberate on further.
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Baroness Carnegy of LourConservative- Quote
- I do not know the intricacies of this system. It is not something that I have specialised in; but it is very distressing to have a situation where there is a declaration at the beginning of the existing legislation, as the noble Lord confirmed. My noble friend said what the purpose of the existing legislation is, yet some 881,300 absent parents are in default. As we all know this is a scandal—an absolute disgrace and a complete failure of all of us. Are the Government and my noble friend right—after all he was in government and sees the problems as the Minister sees them—to turn down the idea of a more detailed declaratory clause at the beginning of the Bill? It would make the point that the Bill is about children and their welfare, not just about money getting to children, and the fact that they must share in the standard of living of both parents, whether they are present or not. Is that not a good idea? We should not close our minds to that. I have always had a great respect for the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood—he was an MP in the Borders of Scotland. He knows a lot about this subject in detail. A bit of imagination in the Bill would remind us that it is about children as a whole, not just about money flowing to them. This business should not be just about cash. It has got to be about what absent parents do for their children. Perhaps the Minister could think a little harder about this. The amendment may not be proposing the right declaratory clause—it has already been suggested that it probably is not—but it is not necessarily a thoroughly bad idea.
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- I agree with the noble Baroness that the framework she has just described is precisely what DCSF is engaged in. It is looking at supporting parents and promoting the welfare of children across a whole range of issues; but it is right, as part of that Government-wide approach, to be clear that we should have arrangements in place to encourage parents on a voluntary basis to enter into financial arrangements for the maintenance of their children and to put in place a statutory system for those who cannot reach agreement. If we move the focus too much away from what is, in a sense, a nuts-and-bolts Bill, for which we do not apologise, we run the risk of overloading the commission in what we are asking it to do and losing focus on that very key issue. At the end of the day, whatever other policies are wrapped around it—and I entirely agree that they are hugely important—if we cannot get the nuts and bolts of a maintenance system operating, we are going to deny prospects for thousands of children. That is what happened in the past and we need to improve on it. That is why we are right to focus the Bill as we have.
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- Lord Kirkwood of KirkhopeLiberal Democrat
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- I am grateful for colleagues’ contributions. It has been an important debate. I am not confident that the flow and quality of the management information available to the commission will enable Parliament, looking just at quarterly statistics, to be sure that the consideration of children as a priority of the commission will be able to be monitored effectively or guaranteed. The amendment, inadequately drafted as it may be, seeks merely to give weight to the objectives and the importance attached to the people who run the commission, who will be under enormous operational pressure to reduce the case load at every conceivable turn, which is not the object of the exercise. The object is more broadly drawn.
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- I reject the assertion that there will be operational pressure on the commission to reduce the case load. There are two parts to the scheme, as I mentioned earlier. The first is to encourage voluntary arrangements, which is part—just part—of the agenda to encourage parental responsibility; the second is to make sure that an effective statutory system is in place. An information and support service, which does not exist at the moment, will be built. There will be a framework agreement which the DWP as the sponsoring department will impose on the commission. It will contain targets with which the commission will have to comply. It is not right to portray the commission as wanting simply to narrow down that in which it is engaged and get away with as little as it can. That will not be permitted under the scheme—we should be clear about that.
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- Lord Kirkwood of KirkhopeLiberal Democrat
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- I do not know whether the management information that would enable us to judge that will be available. I am not seeking to impute bad faith to the professionals who operate the commission. If the CMEC scheme becomes understood, and is known to be efficient and to provide a good service to the public, it will increase the number of people who use it. If that happens, I do not see how the commission can conceivably deal with the legacy backlog. It cannot do both things at the same time. The policy is posited on losing 400,000 cases, because people will do their own thing. I do not know how robust that figure is, but I do not have anything better to offer. If the commission is not careful, it will end up trying to reduce case load so that it can live from day to day. At its core, the amendment, inadequately drafted as it may be, would achieve two things. We need to start asking children more—nobody in this process asks children. Let us bear in mind that children aged 12 in Scotland can make applications in their own right. Nobody goes anywhere near the children to ask whether they want the Child Support Agency’s support, and whether it helps their parents, their quality of life and their life chances. The amendment would shift the weight of that situation, so that more priority is given to consideration of children, as well as achieving the operational efficiency that we all want.
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- We have many things to discuss and we should move on, but, before we do so, will the noble Lord explain how simply writing into legislation an affirmation of the obligation of parents to maintain their children would change anything that he has just described?
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- Lord Kirkwood of KirkhopeLiberal Democrat
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- I think it changes the quality of decisions made. It will also affect some cases going through the courts. We have had Kehoe coming up to the House of Lords, which found on a split decision. I was just reading the very interesting obiter dicta in that case by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale, where she was arguing the case for child entitlement to be a focus of the law, so that the law could be understood a bit better in discretionary situations where administrative decisions are being taken. I am not saying that the commission would get up in the morning to do anything substantially different, but the atmosphere and culture in which the organisation worked would change positively. The absence of some priority given to children is part of the policy failure that we have seen in the past. I make no greater or lesser claim than that. I have wearied colleagues; I know that I would be chancing my arm if I pushed this any further. I am grateful for the response; I will look carefully at what the Minister has said and think more on it. We have had a good debate; I am grateful for colleagues’ contributions. I will go away to reflect on that and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
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- Lord Kirkwood of KirkhopeLiberal Democrat
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- moved Amendment No. 2:
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- We oppose the amendments to which the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, has spoken and prefer government Amendments Nos. 8 to 13, 17 to 22 and 68. We shall oppose Clause 13 standing part of the Bill and bring forward Amendments Nos. 71, 72, 208 and 209.
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- Is not Amendment No. 70 also part of the group?
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- Amendment No. 70 is one of the amendments to which the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, has spoken.
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- I know. But the Minister is not moving the amendments at this point; he is only speaking to them.
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- Let me begin by talking about the important government amendments within this group. As I made clear at Second Reading, it is the Government’s intention that the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission be given Crown status. This group of amendments will give effect to this. The staff of the Child Support Agency are essential to the success of our reforms and are supportive of the changes we are introducing. However, it has become increasingly clear that they have deep-seated concerns about the loss of their Civil Service status. Under the current draft of the Bill this would be lost as, on transfer to the new commission, they would become public servants. As I made clear at Second Reading, we want the agency’s staff to look forward to, not to worry about, the launch of the commission. As a result, we have decided to make a relatively simple change and turn CMEC into a Crown NDPB, ensuring that staff will continue to be civil servants. There are also some accounting and financial advantages to that move. The noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, asked about VAT. It is certainly true that a Crown NDPB has the prospect of VAT recoveries, which an executive NDPB would not. For government, it is a net nil, if one looks at it in aggregate.
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- I have never been one to refuse an invitation, especially one produced like that. Before I start, for the avoidance of doubt I do not intend to have breakfast with the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood. Even if we had the same reading matter, we probably would not have the same cereal. The Minister has just explained a large group of amendments which I find extremely difficult to disentangle and debate. The noble Lord gives the impression—I hope it is no more and that this is not fact—that Her Majesty’s Government have a time agenda and have attempted to speed up the Committee stage of this Bill. As the debate on the last amendment showed, this Committee will not allow scrutiny to be sacrificed in the apparent hurry to get this Bill passed and on to the statute book. With such a large grouping, I can only hypothesise that these amendments have been scrambled together so that we may talk about the structure and composition of the commission. Many of the amendments could almost be described as drafting amendments, although clearly they have the effect he has set out, which is that the staff of the commission will remain civil servants for the foreseeable future. One rather wonders why the noble Lord has taken a power in the Bill to get away with that and take the staff outside the Civil Service, which he has just said that he has done. On whether Clause 13 should stand part of the Bill, I was rather nonplussed to discover that I had been pre-empted by the Minister, who got his name in before me even though I suspect that I tabled the Motion earlier. But I am well aware that that is the form in this House, so I do not complain particularly about it; I just comment. I originally proposed that Clause 13 should no longer stand part of the Bill because I wanted the noble Lord to respond to my concern that if the Bill makes provision for CSA employees to be transferred lock, stock and barrel, how will CMEC have a hope of being different from the CSA? The noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, would probably agree with me on that point. Surely the same employees will inevitably bring with them the baggage of their former employment roles and duties, and thus the new CMEC, no matter what its new structure and intentions, will—to use the word of the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood—morph back into that which came before it, and that which this Bill is expressly attempting to replace. On Amendment No. 2, not only will CMEC have the staff, it will have the same computer system and the same CEO as the CSA. In private discussion over the past three weeks or so the Minister has assured me that the computer system is now up and running to a standard that he and I would expect. It would be extremely helpful if he could now confirm that publicly. Another thing that we need to discover—and amendments to do this in more detail have been tabled—is the Henshaw report. [The Sitting was suspended for a Division in the House from 4.53 to 5.03 pm.]
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- I cannot say that I was interrupted in full flood because I speak somewhat slowly, but perhaps I may use the expression “full exudation”. I was saying that CMEC will have the same staff, the same computer system and the same CSO as the CSA. The Minister needs to convince us that it really will be different in practice, which I am afraid—so far as I am concerned, anyway—he has not achieved so far. One of the things that appears to be different now is that the Henshaw report—which is probably the point at which I left my remarks—envisaged quite large-scale contracting out of some of CMEC’s services. From what I have been reading as background to the Bill, Stephen Geraghty believes that is unlikely to happen, as he told the Select Committee of another place recently. Is it right that a body with net operating costs of more than £500 million in public money, dealing with around 2 million customers in a very sensitive area of policy, currently handling more than £6 billion in annual receipts and likely to be engaged in robust enforcement action, should have considerable autonomy from Ministers in its operating practice and policy? I heard the Minister, in response to one of the questions I put under the previous amendment, saying that in effect there was no difference between a non-departmental public agency and the procedure originally proposed in the Bill. I hope I have got that right. I am finding this difficult to grasp.
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- I hope what I said was that, as originally proposed, there would be an executive NDPB. The amendments now propose that there should be a Crown NDPB, but we still end up with an NDPB that is as arm’s-length from government as was originally envisaged. There are some differences, particularly around employment and the civil servant status of staff as well as some concerning accounting and finance, and each of those means that the body is distinct from just being an agency of the department, such as the CSA is now.
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- I understand that, but it was always intended that there should be a chairman and a chief executive, so from most practical points of view—I think I am right in understanding this from what the Minister has said—there is no difference. I understand that there is difference in the treatment of VAT, which he has just mentioned, and in employment law, but beyond that I cannot see that there is really very much difference. Have I still got it wrong?
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- The noble Lord is right, there is not very much difference between the original model proposed and what is now proposed. Obviously each of those is distinct and different from how the CSA is currently organised, and that is the change.
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- I am not particularly worried about how the CSA is currently organised because it has a shorter life, as the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, might have put in his sunset clause. As I understand it, between two and three years is the proposal at the moment; in other words, it will come to a grinding halt somewhere in the financial period 2010-11. Is that correct?
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- We are getting into a bit of a dialogue here. Nothing comes to a grinding halt. The CSA will cease to be key operationally when there is a transfer of functions to the commission. Lots of things then follow on from that. When we get to 2010 we will get the new basis of assessment, but the function currently carried out by the CSA will move to the commission much earlier than that, possibly in July this year. It will be under the commission banner—obviously there are branding issues around that—and will take forward both the current issues and the development of the new system.
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- That is very helpful. The CSA does not quite come to a grinding halt as late as I thought, but much earlier. I understood the Minister to say that the main reason for making CMEC a Crown body was because of the wishes of the staff. I hope that that means that the Crown status will be sufficient to retain talented staff. If not, the whole thing will be somewhat obviated. The noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, produced a couple of amendments that I have great difficulty with. Amendment No. 4 appears to mean that the Bill cannot be commenced until the operational improvement plan for the CSA has been completed, or, as the amendment says, “achieved”. When I first saw it I thought it was a probing amendment to ascertain where the operational improvement plan, instigated by Mr Geraghty, had got to and whether it applied to CMEC as much as to the CSA. Again, perhaps we will get an answer to that from the Minister. I do not believe, though, that if we finish our debates on the right and fair use of sanctions—some of which, as later amendments show, are in contention—we should delay the commencement of the Bill any longer than strictly necessary, having regard to the parliamentary timetable. We know already that the staff are due to be transferred from the CSA to CMEC, but I cannot at this moment see that the Bill will require any more or any fewer of them. “Will the staff level complement go up or down?” is a rough, rapid translation of what I have just said. Were we to end up with more tribunals, for example, that would probably mean extra staff. However, I anticipate that they would be extra-curricular with regard to CMEC, so would not fit into the amendment. Some activities, such as debt collection and the advisory service, are to be outsourced to private sector firms such as Ventura. I am grateful to the Minister for advising me of that latter arrangement. It makes sense, but it has not been explained exactly what Ventura is to do. It would not be fair to ask exactly what is in the contract, but I hope that by the time we finish Committee we will know at least what the intentions are of using Ventura. I hope that how to maintain the tripartite relationship between separated parents and children will be part of its remit. Indeed, I have an amendment later on to that effect. Amendment No. 14 is in this group. We know already that staff are due to be transferred wholesale from the CSA to CMEC, but I cannot at this moment see that the Bill will require—I apologise, that is a repetition of what I just said. The Minister has been generous in stopping after explaining his group of amendments before going on to comment on those of the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, so I must not outstay my welcome. I would be grateful to receive as many answers to my questions as he feels he can usefully give me at the moment.
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- I have spoken to the government amendments and indicated previously that we would oppose the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood. His Amendment No. 2 would see the commission operating as an executive agency under the control of the Secretary of State. Effectively, that would mean the continuation of the Child Support Agency. We believe that a more fundamental change is needed. There have already been several attempts to reform the CSA, which have failed. We believe that the move to a new organisation, operating under a new governance structure, will help provide a break with the past and build a platform for the future. The change in governance is facilitated by the break with the benefit system. The child maintenance system will no longer be a guardian of benefit expenditure and so there is no need to keep the organisation close to central government. The commission will be concerned with establishing financial arrangements between two individuals. Given the personal and sensitive nature of this work, we consider an arm’s-length relationship with Ministers, as provided by an NDPB, is appropriate. As an NDPB, the commission will have its own legal status, distinct from its sponsor department, and be led by an independent board. The board will be focused entirely on delivering a successful child maintenance system and will have the operational autonomy to make the changes it thinks appropriate. Within an executive agency there is not as great an opportunity for that single-minded focus. The most senior leaders of an executive agency are part of the leadership team of the entire department. They cannot always be focused on one key area of delivery, such as child maintenance.
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- The Minister gave us three distinct differences between the operations of CMEC and those of the CSA, and I readily understand them. The first of them, though, appeared to be—if I may paraphrase—that the lack of compulsion will encourage parents to use the new system. I find that very difficult to believe. I wonder what evidence he has of that.
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- I said that it was one of the key differences. I cited three. There are others that one could cite, particularly around the commissioning arrangements of the commission. Issues around compulsion are to do with not forcing parents with care on benefit to use the statutory system so that they will have the same choices as everyone else and be encouraged, if it is appropriate for their circumstances, to enter into voluntary arrangements. It is part of the dialogue to encourage parental responsibility. That is a significant change in approach and marks a difference with the past.
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- Yes. I obviously did not explain myself very well. Of course it marks a change from the past. What evidence does the Minister have that the fact that people do not have to use the new organisation will make it any more acceptable? There will still be a vast number of people who use it—and, if he is right, who choose to use it. That has to happen fairly and with a level of acceptance. The fact that people do not have to use it makes no difference to those who are using it, and indeed who have been using the CSA until now and will be carried on through the system.
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- The noble Lord is quite right; I accept that point. I suggest, however, that what would make the system more acceptable for those who use it would be better assessment arrangements that did not rely upon income details from people who did not want to engage with the commission and sought to avoid their responsibilities—so reliance on HMRC data will help the assessment process. The ability to update those assessments on an annual basis is a change that people will recognise makes assessments more current. The increase in the benefit disregard, where both non-residents and parents with care will readily recognise the opportunity for more money being available to children without the state clawing it back, is another strengthened enforcement power so that, when an assessment is in place, parents with care can have the confidence that it will be properly enforced and collected. It is the collection arrangements that I think will build confidence in the new system. That sits alongside the encouragement for people to enter voluntary arrangements, underpinned by an information and support service.
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Baroness Hollis of HeighamLabour- Quote
- I understand the philosophy of the voluntary system. I am not sure that I entirely share it, but that is a debate for another day. Given that most, or many, non-resident parents who have not lived in cohabitation with their children—in other words, they have a more casual relationship with them—have an unrealistically low estimate of what it costs to bring up a child, as all the research says they do, how confident is the Minister that by going for a voluntary arrangement one will increase the degree of responsibility between parents to come to mutually satisfactory arrangements for their children that do not translate into the non-resident parent paying far too little for what the child realistically needs?
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- My noble friend raises an extremely important point. Maintenance arrangements come into play in a variety of circumstances. People may have divorced or separated after living together for a long time and therefore would have a greater understanding of the resources of both partners. But with a casual relationship, I accept entirely that it would be much more difficult for the parent with care to make an assessment. A calculator or a ready reckoner will be part of the information and support service. But, in circumstances where it is clear that the parent with care has no idea of the income of the non-resident parent, an obvious choice would be to use the statutory system. An assessment would be undertaken and the arrangements that the commission would have to access HMRC data would kick in. It is a real issue and it is important that we build the information and support service on a robust basis and ensure that there is good information for parents with care around these issues.
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- Lord Kirkwood of KirkhopeLiberal Democrat
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- We are all grateful to the Minister; he is generous and helps us in every way he can. However, he has not persuaded me that this is a clean break. I do not think he has convinced any of the people I have talked to who work within the professional staffing agency that this is a clean break. The test of that will be whether there is a big rebranding relaunch. If we are so confident that what we have got adds up to a fresh start, when is the launch party? Who will run it? What will be said? What is new that is going to make all the difference? It is not credible. That is not to say that there are not improved policy positions. The Minister has mentioned some and if he could get a full disregard out of the Treasury there might be a case for having a party and being confident of making a difference. But from where we are now, if he thinks there is going to be a moment when suddenly the penny drops, the scales fall from people’s eyes and they think, “Oh, this is a new organisation”, he is not being realistic. I can think of other ways of expressing it, but I will not. I do not think that the contract for the computer has finished development yet; it was recast in 2005 under the transformation of EDS scheme and is still going on. The contract ends in two years but I do not think they have finished developing it yet. PR1 is at least eight months late and known colloquially in the agency as “Please Run!” because it has been so delayed. It is a crucial release, as is the financial one which has also been delayed.
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- It is clear under the operational improvement plan that the end of March 2008 was the time frame within which PR1 was to be delivered, and the agency is on track to do that.
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- Lord Kirkwood of KirkhopeLiberal Democrat
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- It was supposed to be introduced last autumn actually. However, I agree that what the Minister says is technically accurate; it was to be delivered within this financial year. I hope and pray that it will be. But another question flows from that. April 2008 sees the finish of the CSCS contract, so who is going to run and be responsible for handling the computer platform for old cases after that? There may be a roll-on contract but it is very difficult to find out because people hide behind commercial confidentiality all the time. Perhaps the Minister can help clear up that worry. I am sorry to be so obstinate about this, but perhaps the Minister can explain the reason for the three-year Crown NDPB. Why three years? The Minister makes a good case at first by saying this is the right format for the staff and so on, but suddenly that changes into the wrong format after three years. My spies, who are everywhere, tell me that this involves £140 million of VAT. The Minister may be right, these may be internal transactions within government, but I understand that somebody cocked up the budget. I am perfectly prepared to accept that that is not the case, if he says so, but I would expect him also to tell the truth and say whether that is a factor in financing this organisation. He is an accountant, so he should know. Is that the case? Is there a problem here? Is it why we are having a Crown NDPB only for three years?
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- I have already made it clear that there were a number of issues, including staffing, and, yes, VAT was one of them. That is on the record, given what I said earlier. Is that sufficient for the noble Lord? What else does he want to know?
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- Lord Kirkwood of KirkhopeLiberal Democrat
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- The Minister is being generous and I hear myself shouting at him when I do not mean to. I am told that the key reason for the change from where we were previously—an NDPB in which everyone did the calculations and the policy arrangements on the basis of that; and then suddenly, without any explanation, it changed—was the fact that someone had forgotten to pay the VAT. I understand the technicalities of VAT; the Minister will know better than I do that it is dealt with by internal government transfer, so it does not add up to a big row of beans. But if the status of this body changed at this late stage for that reason, it demonstrates incompetence.
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- Just to make it absolutely clear, as I tried to before: it was one of the issues that caused the change of view. The noble Lord has visited the CSA, talked to staff and engaged them regarding the future—and that has been helpful and productive. I have done the same and everywhere that one has visited, almost the first question that came from staff concerned the loss of civil servant status. That was a concern around the department and whatever assurances might be given about access to job vacancies in the DWP and more widely within the Civil Service, and on access to the pension scheme and so on, there was a continuing concern by staff. Part of the deliberations was to make sure that that concern would not make it more difficult to launch the commission successfully. Yes, the VAT was one of the issues, but, frankly, a Crown NDPB was not the only route for dealing with that issue. Again I say: across government it was a net nil.
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- Lord Kirkwood of KirkhopeLiberal Democrat
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- A net nil. I concede, although I want to study what the Minister said. I am pleased that he has taken the trouble to try to explain the issue. I do not understand why it has changed after three years; if it is that good, it should be a policy proposal and stand the test of time. I am told that a Crown NDPB is somehow more expensive and can operate only for three years until the matter is sorted out. I agree that the staff are a key consideration in all this and I hope that their interests are being looked after. I am happy not to press these amendments; we will have a chance to return to some of the technology questions later. I am sure that we will all benefit from studying what the Minister said. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendments Nos. 3 to 5 not moved.] Clause 1 agreed to. [The Sitting was suspended for a Division in the House from 5.38 to 5.49 pm.] Schedule 1 [The Commission]:
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Baroness VermaConservative- Quote
- moved Amendment No. 6:
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- I thank the noble Baroness for the spirit in which she moved the amendment. I agree that we must do everything that we can to ensure that CMEC succeeds. The amendments seek to examine and ratify particular aspects of the governance structure that we have proposed for the commission. As has been explained, Amendments Nos. 6 and 7 would limit the number of executive directors appointed to the board of the commission to a maximum of three, and the number of non-executive directors appointed to a maximum of four. That would limit board membership to nine, including the chair and commissioner. We have deliberately chosen not to specify the size of the board absolutely, which is consistent with the constitution of other NDPBs such as the Pensions Regulator and the Pension Protection Fund, which do not have a board maximum set in statute. Given the level of change expected in the commission as the reforms are introduced and take effect, the commission itself will be best placed to determine the most effective board size—in other words, the members of the board—to meet the statutory responsibilities for which it is accountable to Parliament. Similarly, the decision whether to have committees and sub-committees, and what the membership of such committees should be, should be a decision for the board alone. The commission remains responsible for ensuring that its statutory functions are exercised in the manner prescribed in legislation. To support the commission in its ability to delegate functions as it sees best, we have provided that the board may form a committee for any purpose and that, if it chooses, it may delegate any of its functions to it in addition to any member of the board or member of staff. In giving the board the ability to create committees for any purpose, we also believe that it is important that it is given the ability to determine the membership of such committees. We have therefore provided that committees can include individuals who are not members of staff, which enables the commission to draw on as wide a body of expertise as possible. For example, it is possible to envisage a committee with responsibility for policy development that might include stakeholders such as one-parent families, or that the audit committee might include an employee of the NAO. Amendments Nos. 15 and 16 would require that a member of the commission—in other words, a member of the board—must serve on every committee. While we might expect that to be the case, depending on the number of committees and sub-committees that might need to be established, it could be impractical. As we have established an independent board to make the best operational decisions, we believe that we should leave the composition of committees to the board. However, regardless of the committee structure, the board will remain accountable for the overall performance of the commission and for the attainment of its objectives. On the basis of that explanation, I hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
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- Baroness VermaConservative
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- I thank the Minister for his considerations. It would be useful to probe a little further into the size the Minister envisages for the committee. There must be a limit to how big or small it will be. Turning to Amendments Nos. 15 and 16, if we are going to encourage the continuity of a programme, we shall need some sort of continuity in the membership of the board. The amendments are probing in nature to ask about the size of the committee.
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- On the latter point, one could envisage that it would normally be the case that at least one member of the board would serve on a committee or sub-committee, but if we were to preclude the alternative we might rule out situations where perhaps a minor technical issue needed to be addressed or outside expertise needed to be available to take forward a particular policy development. All that is entirely appropriate. The noble Baroness is absolutely right to say that if that happens, there should be processes for reporting back and thus ensuring continuity of information about the deliberations about a particular sub-committee. However, if we were to say that there could never be a situation where a member of the board did not serve on a committee or sub-committee, that would be unduly restrictive. On the first point, I do not have a fixed view about the number envisaged by the commission because I have not checked the numbers sitting on the boards of other NDPBs. I imagine that it varies. As I have said, it is for the commission to determine that. Obviously it will have clear reporting lines about its immediate objectives back to the Secretary of State and it will want to make sure that it has the mix of skills that it needs. Similarly, I imagine that it would have to have due regard to the fact that it does not want to overload the board with people who are not making a contribution. However, I think that we need to leave it to the commission.
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- Baroness VermaConservative
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- Again, I thank the Minister for his considerations. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendment No. 7 not moved.]
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- moved Amendments Nos. 8 to 13:
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- moved Amendments Nos. 17 to 22:
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- Lord Kirkwood of KirkhopeLiberal Democrat
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- moved Amendment No. 23:
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- I and my noble friend Lady Verma have added our names to the last two amendments in the group, Amendments Nos. 27 and 36, but I shall first speak to Amendment No. 23. For the first time this afternoon, I have some sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, who will be surprised to hear that. [The Sitting was suspended for a Division in the House from 6.07 to 6.19 pm.]
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The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Brougham and Vaux)Conservative- Quote
- I think we should continue.
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- I am very happy to continue but I am sorry that I shall have to do so in the absence of the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood. Presumably the noble Lord, Lord Addington, is going to take over. I was saying, to the appreciation of the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, that I have some sympathy with Amendment No. 23 which stands in his name. I believe that the collection of child maintenance should be continued even though a child has passed into the age of adulthood. I am somewhat confused because the Government seem keen to reduce this. I do not know whether there is a statutory age for the end of childhood because it appears to differ depending on the circumstances. At certain moments, it appears to be 18. If you are adopted, you need the court’s approval to marry at 16 but this requirement ceases at 18. Proposals are afoot to reduce the voting age but I do not know whether that has any bearing on the age of majority. The Government are being somewhat schizophrenic. They propose that the legal age for youngsters to leave education shall be raised to 18; until just the other day you could buy cigarettes—of which I was guilty—at 16 but alcohol at 18; you can join the Army at 16 but not be sent to a theatre of operations until you are 18. So I am not to blame for being confused about the legal age for the end of childhood. I hope the Minister can clear that up for me. Whether or not he does so, and whether childhood ends at 16 or 18, or even in between, I must return specifically to the amendment. The fact that the qualifying child is now grown up and may well not be living with his or her former parent with care makes no difference to the outstanding debt which may have arisen when he or she was younger. The question that does not seem to be answered by the legislation is: who does the money belong to? To my mind, it should be clear that the money is for the good of the child. So whilst he—this is not sexist, the Interpretation Act applies—is living with the parent with care the money is to be in the control of that parent, as it would be for any minor. When he becomes an adult or moves out or both, the money should go directly to him. Not only that, but the backlog that was not paid by the absent parent when he was a child should still be paid and, again, to him. There should be no age cut off point for this. I have a sneaking suspicion that the Minister agrees with me—in principle anyway. However, the question that he must answer is whether he agrees that this issue is important enough to be included as a main objective in the Bill, which is what the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, seeks. Perhaps I may gently suggest to the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, that it should be a secondary consideration and therefore would be more appropriate in subsection (2). Amendment No. 27 is a probing amendment to explore why there seems to be a get-out clause in the stated objectives of CMEC. Clause 2 sets out the commission’s objectives, one of which is to support applications for child support maintenance under the 1991 Act and to ensure that there is compliance with the parental obligations set out in that Act. However, as the Bill stands, CMEC must secure compliance only “when appropriate”. I certainly understand that there may be situations when securing compliance may not be appropriate, or indeed there may be individual scenarios in which it is impossible, but, as the Bill stands, this judgment rests entirely with CMEC. Essentially, CMEC has the power to be judge and jury over whether it may or may not pursue maintenance arrears. I feel that that proviso lacks precision. Although that might not be intended in the drafting, it could be interpreted as a loophole. Does the Minister agree that it is unacceptable for the commission to decide for itself when it is appropriate to require a non-resident parent to meet his obligation and when this can be simply ignored? What standards of appropriateness does the Minister have in mind? Surely the priority should be the potential benefit of the maintenance arrangements, and that is what should determine whether the commission seeks to ensure compliance. However, with the commission as the final arbiter of what is appropriate, there is no guarantee that any other potentially unrelated reason is used to shirk the responsibility of ensuring compliance. Can the noble Lord explain the need for the commission to decide for itself when it does its job and when it does not have to? Arguably, the commission should be under a legal duty to secure compliance in all cases. I understand that there may well be practical difficulties with this. I offer the example of the non-resident parent having no money, which might make compliance impossible in some individual cases. I want to be able to take account of difficult exceptions because I do not want to pass an unenforceable Bill but, as it is currently phrased, the scope for avoiding compliance with the law is simply too loose and too wide. Can the Minister give examples of when he thinks it would be appropriate for the commission to ignore the requirement for non-resident parents to meet their statutory obligations? Amendment No. 36 is an attempt to tighten and strengthen the link between the work of CMEC and its objectives. I am forced to promise yet another amendment, one to put in the Bill a precise and exact proviso. With such wishy-washy phrases as “aim to pursue” and “have regard to” the Bill can make a claim towards its grand and good objective of improving child maintenance arrangements for those children living apart from one or both parents—or can it? Those phrases, perhaps conveniently, do not bind the Bill to its objectives and therefore create room for the possibility of under-achievement. I am sure the Minister would agree that there is simply no point in passing the Bill unless noble Lords and Members of another place are confident that it will realise what it promises. Her Majesty’s Government’s record on child maintenance so far has not been exemplary and it is our duty to the children who rely on financial assistance that it should become so. We on these Benches are not going to give Her Majesty’s Government any opportunity to duck out of their commitments without being held to account. I am convinced, of course, that the Minister would wish for that too, and thus I cannot imagine that he will have any objection to my speaking and adding my name to the last amendment in this group tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood.
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- I am grateful to noble Lords for tabling the proposed amendments, each of which I shall address in turn. Amendment No. 23 proposes that the main objective of the commission should be extended to include a subsection requiring the commission to secure the payment of arrears owed under the Act. I understand these concerns but I believe that the amendment is unnecessary. The commission will already be required to pursue all arrears, regardless of when they arose, under the objective which requires it to secure parental compliance with the Child Support Act 1991 where appropriate. Indeed, the Bill brings in new enforcement and debt management powers to prevent new debt building up and to enable accumulated debt to be recovered. I should also like to take the opportunity to reassure noble Lords that a range of targets will be published in the commission’s business plan that will underpin each of the commission’s objectives, and these targets will be agreed between the department and the commission in a process which has not yet begun. While we cannot commit to anything at this stage, we would expect the collection of outstanding debt to be part of the range of targets. Returning to the current drafting of the subsidiary objective, the words “when appropriate” are needed because Section 2 of the 1991 Act requires the commission to, “have regard to the welfare of any child”, when exercising discretionary powers. Indeed, this is a provision to which the noble Lord himself referred at the start of our deliberations. This must take precedence over other considerations. If we removed the words “when appropriate” as suggested in Amendment No. 27, the commission would be caught between two absolute requirements: always to secure compliance under the Act and always to have regard to the welfare of any child. The current drafting of Clause 2 prevents that situation arising, thus ensuring that the commission can always have regard to the welfare of the child. The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, pressed me on specific examples. There could be situations where pressing a non-resident parent could have a particularly difficult impact on the welfare of a child in his new family; or there could be issues of violence around the potential family situation which could be exacerbated by the pursuit of debts. If the noble Lord presses on why it should be the commission that makes that judgment, it is because the commission would generally be possessed of the information best to make that judgment.
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- In other words, the age is about to go up. Is that right?
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- It depends. The noble Lord asserts that we are raising the school-leaving age—I am not sure whether he put it quite in those terms—but that is not quite what is proposed. The Government are looking at a range of measures to encourage people to stay at school or to go into some sort of training or further or higher education. There has been a recent amendment to increase the age to 20 as regards child benefit. I am looking for support at the back.
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- I do not want to pursue the point now. Perhaps the Minister will consider all the complications involved in the 16 or 18 age limits, or even beyond. In certain circumstances, a mentally handicapped child is expected to stay on at school until 19, which is yet another complication.
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- There is a Division in the Chamber so we shall suspend the Sitting for 10 minutes. [The Sitting was suspended for a Division in the House from 6.34 to 6.44 pm.]
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- When we broke off I was yet again quizzing the Minister. I am tempted to say “teasing” but it was not a tease; it was a valid point about the end of childhood as CMEC would see it and the statutory basis for it. I had almost got it out of my mouth that as this is such a complicated subject he might like to consider writing to me, which I would find perfectly acceptable.
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- I am grateful for the opportunity. I shall certainly do so and copy the letter to other noble Lords who have spoken or shown an interest today. Having been saved by the bell, I shall take the opportunity to make reference to Clause 39, which indicates what the meaning of “child” is for the purpose of these provisions. I shall make sure it is covered in correspondence.
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- Lord Kirkwood of KirkhopeLiberal Democrat
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- I am happy to withdraw the lead amendment in this group, but perhaps the Minister can clarify one thing for me. I understand what he said about the debt position but I am not clear yet whether it is the overall intention, delivered by whomsoever—whether it is the Child Support Agency, the commission, the Government or a combination of the three—that at some point each case will be looked at by someone. While there will be no bulk treatment, will people get a reckoning? However this is delivered, at the end of the day will every case be looked at and either written off with an explanation or activated and enforced? Will that happen in every individual case? If the answer is yes, I will happily withdraw the amendment.
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- My understanding is that these matters will be dealt with on an individual case-by-case basis. I cannot in all honesty say to the noble Lord that there may be no circumstances where you get to some sort of residual pot—we just do not know what will happen operationally—but the intention is to look at them on a case-by-case basis, especially if they are interim assessments possibly to generate a negotiation. But always it will require the parent with care’s consent before debt is written off.
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- Lord Kirkwood of KirkhopeLiberal Democrat
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- On that basis I am happy to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
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- Lord NorthbourneCrossbench
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- moved Amendment No. 24:
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- Baroness Hollis of HeighamLabour
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- Perhaps I may ask the noble Lord a simple question. He asked why children in Scotland should have protection that children in England are denied. Does he have any evidence that it makes any difference to the outcomes of parental behaviour?
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- Lord NorthbourneCrossbench
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- I am working away to find evidence, but, so far, I have none. I suspect that the reason is that the legislation is working so well in Scotland that there are no complaints.
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Baroness Butler-SlossCrossbench- Quote
- I have put my name to the three amendments. There is no definition of parenting in any primary or secondary legislation. It is to be found in a number of cases in the Court of Appeal and in occasional cases in the House of Lords. However, they are not instantly available to most people, particularly not to those who are involved in the unhappy breakdown of their relationship, whether it is a marriage or a partnership. There are practical reasons, in addition to those given by my noble friend Lord Northbourne—I agreed entirely with every word he said—why having a definition in this legislation would be very helpful. First, in a large number of cases, the money to be paid to children is not the only issue to come before a court or has to be discussed by a mediator or by lawyers in cases where lawyers are involved. When a couple separates, it is usual to look at whether the house or flat is rented or owned and whether the children are to see the non-resident parent—usually the father. Contact is extremely difficult to manage if the mother does not have an assurance that the father will pay. Technically, money and contact are totally separate issues, but as a matter of human reality, the mother usually says, “If you are to see your child, what are you going to pay?”. In cases such as those referred to by my noble friend Lord Northbourne, where the parent—usually the man but not always—does not see why he should pay, there is nothing to point to other than the fact that he should pay because the legislation says that he must. However, there is the important concept that both parents have responsibility for their child and that part of sharing that responsibility is to pay. There is no question but that the mother, as the primary carer, will pay, because usually the money given by a father is not enough to support a child. Therefore, it is very important that the non-resident parent who is asked to pay under legislation is also made fully aware of the concept of the obligation of responsibility. I wish to make two practical points. If there are lawyers or mediators in the case, they could say, “You are expected to be responsible, as is shown in the legislation”. My noble friend Lord Northbourne and I are hoping to include this in the Children and Young Persons Bill. We want it to be set out clearly across the board that there is responsibility in payment and responsibility in the care of children. Perhaps more importantly, many of these fathers—they are generally fathers—do not have lawyers and will not be in discussion with the mother’s lawyer, if she has one. However, almost certainly a court will be dealing with the separated couple and, after they have separated, will pick up the pieces for them in relation to the rented flat or the owned house and the contact arrangements and so on. Whether it is someone in the magistrates’ court, the district judge or occasionally the circuit judge, he can point to this legislation and say that it really matters. He will say not simply, “You’ve got to pay because the legislation says so”, but, “You have got to be responsible for your children”. The meaning of “responsibility” is set out in Amendment No. 35. We need Parliament to make a statement in primary legislation that responsible parenting matters a great deal in relation to money, children and everything that goes with the breakdown of the relationship between parents. Even in a case such as my noble friend Lord Northbourne described, where a father says that he did not intend to have children, he has a responsibility under the Child Support Act and this legislation and he needs to be told as well as anyone else that it is not just a money matter. The child is born and the grown-ups have to be responsible for that child. It is the issue of responsibility that my noble friends Lord Northbourne, Lady Finlay and I are extremely keen to push forward. Although one may think that this is all a bit of a concept and rather vague, I have to tell noble Lords that, having been a lawyer and a judge, I would have been helped, as other judges will be helped, by having this in primary legislation.
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- Baroness Hollis of HeighamLabour
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- I hesitate to intervene in an issue where views are strongly held. I suspect that all of us want to see responsible parenting, and anything which can be done to encourage it should be done. But, again, I have a real hesitation about putting what I regard as rhetorical statements in the Bill in the hope that somehow they will affect behaviour. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, said that this would be a great help to judges. However, most of the children we are talking about do not come out of divorce arrangements, so their cases do not go before the courts. They come out of informal or cohabitation relationships—
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- Baroness Butler-SlossCrossbench
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- Forgive me, but I did say specifically that I was referring to either the separation of a couple or the situation after a marriage breakdown. I am well aware that 40 per cent of children are born in a relationship outside of marriage and I was careful not to limit this to marital breakdown.
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- Baroness Hollis of HeighamLabour
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- I accept that, but the point is that most of the children whom the agency will be working with will not come from a divorce situation because usually the parent with care will not be on benefits and therefore the children will already be within the voluntary system. The children whom the CSA, and eventually CMEC, largely deal with are those where the parent with care is on benefit and the man is either on benefit as well or is a fairly low earner, and the relationship is generally casual or one of cohabitation. This is not a matter to which lawyers may usefully point because those are not the children whom we are dealing with. My second point is that the proposal may be helpful for lawyers in the relatively rare cases where a divorced non-resident parent is being irresponsible, although, in my experience, those fathers who need to pay most do so because they are coming out of marriages in which they have bonded with and become attached to their children. They know how much it costs to bring them up and so they will pay. It is the group that does not come within the ambit of lawyers that presents the problems. Therefore, my concern is that this proposal seems to suggest that those who work to ensure the flow of maintenance—the CSA and then CMEC staff—are being asked to become social workers. We have been careful at every stage of these Bills—in 1991, 2000 and today—to separate the question of child maintenance from contact and all the other issues that can arise. A number of fathers’ organisations would like to see it attached, but I do not think it is reasonable to expect CSA or CMEC staff to take on the responsibility of trying to act as social workers between warring parents. Their job is to ensure the flow of money. Although I sympathise with the objectives and do not disagree with them, I really do not believe that such wording is appropriate in this legislation, as it is in other Bills such as the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill, where we have also been arguing whether a similar form of words should be included. No doubt the same applies to other Bills related to children. There is a place for such words, but not in a Bill to establish an appropriate mechanism to deliver adequate child maintenance.
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- Earlier, I signalled that I was in general agreement with this set of amendments. I most certainly shall not renege on that. However, unlike the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, with all her experience of these matters, I feel that it is important to include something similar to these amendments in the Bill. The noble Baroness made an objection, saying that, although the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, felt that it would be helpful for the courts, the mediation service, solicitors and, I suspect, the judges to be able to point to words such as these, it would be equally helpful, for example, to Ventura or to a member of the staff of the commission when seeking to persuade someone that, notwithstanding the extra enforcement powers mentioned by the Minister, this is a duty on both parents. When I spoke earlier about a wider interpretation of “maintenance”, I meant exactly that. The noble Lord and the noble Baroness have been talking about how to define that wider interpretation of “maintenance”, which is not just money. I have no doubt that, like the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, the Minister will object to these amendments by arguing that the CMEC cannot perform all roles and therefore stretch its resources. I can allow the Minister to anticipate my argument against this. It is that the encouragement of a relationship between the absent parent and their child is not just a case of emotional welfare. If the non-resident parent develops a relationship with their child, they will mostly develop a feeling of responsibility towards him and therefore be more inclined to support him financially. In fact, it promises to be a better enforcement of duty than any commission, court or sanction. I certainly support the idea behind these amendments.
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- Lord Kirkwood of KirkhopeLiberal Democrat
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- I am reluctant to get involved in this legal argument that is raging over my head. Australians have found a way to fix some of these problems and Professor Patrick Parkinson came over here. Andrew Selous and Paul Rowen in the Public Bill Committee identified some important policy moves and developments along these lines. The Australian model is simple. It has a system of family relationship centres in shopping malls. They are a mile away from benefit offices, Jobcentre Plus offices or HMRC offices: they are where people need to find them. Professor Parkinson said that the success of these centres is that fathers come into them. I am accustomed to mothers beating a path to one’s door and looking for help. Perhaps it is the function of Australia, but it is having a lot of success in keeping fathers attached to their children simply by the development of these ideas but through a system that is different and separate from a commission. The commission will not have time on its hands. I was certainly persuaded by the plea of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, on that. The commission will have enough to do and, if it does what it is asked to do, it will be a good trick and it will be extremely lucky. At the same time, this sentiment is a powerful part of getting an effective service to families. In an ideal world, you would not need to put it in the Bill. The case being powerfully made is that it may have to be in the Bill so that something gets done, even if it is just the commission saying to the Ministry of Justice or the Department for Children, Schools and Families, “We’ve got to get together and replicate the kind of thing that is done in Australia”. I am not saying that it is perfect there and I do not know that much about it, but it is done on the basis of serving one in 300,000 individuals. That scheme is in its early days of rollout and implementation, but it seems to be working and is doing the kind of things that these important amendments refer to. There is something there that is important to the future success of this policy. If I were pressed, I would have to say that I would support the amendments, but with an important proviso that you are asking a lot of people in the commission who are not looking for extra things to do. I have put my name to three amendments in this group. Amendment No. 28, which I do not want to spend a lot of time on, talks about maintenance from both parents based on the right of each child, and I exhausted that argument earlier. Amendment No. 33 is what I like to think of as my “granny amendment”, because when in a previous incarnation I was a solicitor doing consistorial work dealing with broken families in a part of the world that is slightly more matriarchal, it was always the granny who fixed the problem. This was a long time ago when extended families were more extant. Responsible grandparents, or parties like them, can play a role, particularly in relation to Clause 6, where the wife, mother or parent with care is frightened to refer under the new system. Someone needs to be able to shoulder the blame for that and deal with the non-resident parent’s anger and distress when that happens. There is a powerful role for grannies. My granny was certainly a powerful figure in my life. There is a case for looking at third-party involvement in this. On Amendment No. 34, I made the point in passing that children aged 12 can make full applications in their own right to the organisation in Scotland. It has never been clear to me why that is restricted to Scotland; but no doubt family lawyers will tell me that it is to do with the age of majority or minority or something. Children aged 12 are perfectly capable of being asked sensible questions about effective parenting, about what they want done, about how they see the relationship with their father being continued somehow, but we do not ask any questions of 12 year-olds or anyone of a minority age. We should think about that in relation to some of the more general arguments that I have been making. In so far as they go, these amendments have added a lot to our debates and I would support holding on to these thoughts when considering the rest of the amendments. I hope that the noble Lord will get some satisfaction that, however they are delivered, he will get where he wants to be, whether it is by putting these requirements in the Bill or not.
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- As the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, said, this has been a heavyweight discussion. I start by speaking to Amendments Nos. 24, 25, 30 and 35. They seek significantly to extend the remit of the commission beyond child maintenance to include the promotion and encouragement of parents’ responsibility to provide welfare and support for their children and the encouragement of absent parents’ relationships with their children. Of course I have some sympathy with the noble Lord’s intentions, which fit well with overall government policy towards children and their parents. However, I agree with my noble friend Lady Hollis that we must ensure that the primary focus of this Bill is to maximise the number of effective maintenance arrangements in place. That is what the Bill is about.
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- Baroness Butler-SlossCrossbench
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- In the light of Clause 4, which I have not given sufficient attention to—I apologise—the concerns of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, and the Minister seem to me to be rather less, because the commission must take the steps it considers appropriate for the purpose of raising awareness. Once you have got to raise awareness of the need for taking responsibility for maintenance, it is a very short step for an employee of the commission to get to the stage that the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, and I require. It is already in the Bill that the commission has got to do counselling. I ask the Minister why this would not slot in very neatly under Clause 4, not under Clause 2.
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- Before the Minister answers that point, surely the problem is that the word “maintenance” is interpreted throughout the system, by the noble Lord and by the Acts we have had up to now, as financial maintenance—and the buck stops there. What the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, are after is to have a very much wider definition of maintenance, and I remain convinced that they are right.
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- I certainly do not disagree that there should be definitions of responsibility, the engagement of parents and the welfare of their children, all of which goes beyond a definition of maintenance whether it is focused just in terms of money or on a more general provision of facilities. But I come back to the point that Clause 4 is about taking responsibility for maintenance, not the wider issue, important though it is. It may well be that in some circumstances it is quite a small step, but I am sure that with her great experience, the noble and learned Baroness would acknowledge that there can be other circumstances where it is quite a big step. That is why we believe that the balance struck here to promote maintenance is right. The broader issue is something for part of a broader government agenda.
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- Lord NorthbourneCrossbench
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- I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken. Obviously it is an extremely complex issue and we have heard some interesting contributions. I do not think I can respond usefully now, so I shall take away what the Minister has said. However, one point did strike me. The noble Lord said that all this stuff is not really for us because our job is just to process the claims that come in. We are already inundated with claims that we cannot handle, so we certainly cannot do anything else. But if you are in a boat which is filling with water and you cannot bail it out fast enough, what about trying to mend the hole so that less water can get in? This is what I am suggesting and the reason I think it is important in this context is because it is only by reducing the demand that the agency will ultimately solve its problems.
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- Perhaps I may make it clear that I do not assert that the commission has no role in the broader agenda. For example, part of the information and support service will no doubt be that of cross-referring individuals to give them access to mediation and a whole range of other services. I do not assert that the commission will simply put blinkers on and only drive cash transfers; of course it is wider than that. But this agenda should not be its specific role, and that is where we part company on this.
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- In that case, will the noble Lord inject strength into the arm of his noble friend and colleague Lord Adonis in his investigation of this matter in the Children and Young Persons Bill?
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- Would the noble Lord mind repeating the question?
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- Lord SkelmersdaleConservative
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- I asked the Minister whether he would add to the consideration, because surely there will be intercourse—I suppose that is the word—between the department of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and the Minister’s own department on exactly this subject. Given what the Minister has just said, would he consider adding strength to the arm of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, in his consideration with Ministers and the Secretary of State in his department of this matter? I say that because I remain of the opinion, even after listening to the counter-arguments produced on the other side of the Committee, that somewhere in the system CMEC needs a phrase in legislation to point to.
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- I will certainly liaise with my noble friend Lord Adonis and talk to him about this exchange in Committee, as I am sure will the officials. We need to make sure that we are joined-up in all this. The Children’s Plan sets out a clear path of where we should be working together, so let us put it into practice on this issue.
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- Lord NorthbourneCrossbench
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- I am most grateful; I think that the Committee has probably had enough of that one. I am very happy to withdraw the amendment, on the understanding that I shall probably bring the matter back at a later stage. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendment No. 25 not moved.]
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- Lord McKenzie of LutonLabour
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- This may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until Thursday at 2 pm.
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- The Committee stands adjourned until Thursday 31 January at 2 pm. Committee adjourned at 7.29 pm.
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